Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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FreeGrace2 said:
How come none of these verses even mentions election or "choosing"??
In the 2 posts I just shared, EVERY verse is about being chosen or elected, or about service, which is what election is for.
No. Why would you think so?
OK, sure, sling mud since you have absolutely ZERO support for your own beliefs. Good for you.
How come none of these verses even mentions election or "choosing"??
In the 2 posts I just shared, EVERY verse is about being chosen or elected, or about service, which is what election is for.
No. Why would you think so?
OK, sure, sling mud since you have absolutely ZERO support for your own beliefs. Good for you.
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Yeah, well okay, that would be me. So, since you've mentioned it, allow me to elaborate
As with all salvation attributes, being conformed to the image of His son is of salvation and is ongoing, not of a future event
[Gal 4:19 KJV] 19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
The adoption spoken of in the Bible is in the becoming of the children of God and joint heirs with Christ. It is obtained through God having predestination them for it. It is manifested when saved. It is not of a future event.
[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[Rom 8:16 KJV]
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[Rom 8:17 KJV]
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
[Eph 1:11 KJV]
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Just as there are two parts to salvation, there are also two parts to the adoption: 1) positionally (Romans 8:16) and 2) physical redemption (of the body) at the end of time. Positional adoptions occur when saved. No one can be a child of God unless they have become adopted - the natural man cannot be. Adoption is what makes a child of God a child of God
As with all salvation attributes, being conformed to the image of His son is of salvation and is ongoing, not of a future event
[Gal 4:19 KJV] 19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
The adoption spoken of in the Bible is in the becoming of the children of God and joint heirs with Christ. It is obtained through God having predestination them for it. It is manifested when saved. It is not of a future event.
[Rom 8:15 KJV]
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[Rom 8:16 KJV]
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[Rom 8:17 KJV]
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
[Eph 1:11 KJV]
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Just as there are two parts to salvation, there are also two parts to the adoption: 1) positionally (Romans 8:16) and 2) physical redemption (of the body) at the end of time. Positional adoptions occur when saved. No one can be a child of God unless they have become adopted - the natural man cannot be. Adoption is what makes a child of God a child of God
Well, okay then it should be easy enough for you resolve. Please clarify and demonstrate, due to my lack of intelligence, a verse (for simplicity and clarity) that directly and specifically ties-in (not implies) that election is to service (but not one of service being a result of election) - something similar to the following. It is possible I missed it so please repost.
[Rom 9:11, 16, 18 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
I did not find any linkage of that kind in your post. You did demonstrate service, but not directly associated to election, at least, that I could find.
[Rom 9:11, 16, 18 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
I did not find any linkage of that kind in your post. You did demonstrate service, but not directly associated to election, at least, that I could find.
Can a lost man have faith? Every man that has ever lived exhibits faith everyday all day.
We are waiting for the adoption which is the redemption of our body. It is a future event at the resurrection. That is the believer's destination. Once you became a believer, God knew you. Now that God knows you, He determines your future ahead of time, thus the term predestined.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are waiting for the adoption which is the redemption of our body. It is a future event at the resurrection. That is the believer's destination. Once you became a believer, God knew you. Now that God knows you, He determines your future ahead of time, thus the term predestined.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The believer is predestined to receive the adoption, the redemption of the body. That's the destination of everyone who is in Christ. Nobody received this blessing before they were in Christ. Once you are in Christ, God knows you. Once God knows you, He predestines you to be conformed to the image of His own Son.
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You may imagine you are telling the truth, but when a person has been brainwashed into a lie, he or she cannot possibly determine whether they are actually telling the truth.
The Calvinistic doctrine of "unconditional election" (U in TULIP) is a total lie for the simple reason that (a) God offers salvation to all mankind therefore (b) He does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation.
The Calvinistic doctrine of "unconditional election" (U in TULIP) is a total lie for the simple reason that (a) God offers salvation to all mankind therefore (b) He does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation.
FreeGrace2 said:
Every verse either plainly linked election to service or demonstrated that those elected, like Paul, were appointed to service, etc.
There is nothing to resolve. Each verse is clear.
Well, I've done that repeatedly, and gladly will do so again. Hoping to increase a bit of your IQ, since you note your lack of it.
I'll take just one of the examples of election: Jesus Christ Himself
Elected to Serve
Jesus is described as The Elect (Chosen) One
Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Now, consider what Jesus Christ was chosen for:
Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Luke 22:27 - For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
So, the Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ is God’s Chosen One, and that He came to serve.
Now, let's see what the Bible says about angels.
Angels were elected to service:
1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
This verse plainly describes angels as spirits and "His servants".
Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
If this verse isn't crystal clear, you just don't want to know.
Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
These 3 verses are clear; an angel of God describes himself as a "fellow servant WITH" John.
OK, that's 2 different examples of who has been elected. Nothing about salvationn.
These verses do not reveal the purpose of election.
But, here are some verses that actually describe the purpose of election:
1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
Red words refer to who God has elected. Blue words refer to the actual purpose of that election. If you don't see the blue words as service, you really shouldn't be on this forum.
Acts 10:41 - on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead
God specifically chose certain people to be witnesses of the risen Christ. That is service, not salvation.
Of course. But then, you have already told me WHY above in your post.
Well, in the verses that did demonstrate service, was about those who were also elected/chosen. And I gave verses that specifically said so.
So, if you can't or won't connect the dots, it's understandable where your issue is.
Every verse either plainly linked election to service or demonstrated that those elected, like Paul, were appointed to service, etc.
There is nothing to resolve. Each verse is clear.
Well, I've done that repeatedly, and gladly will do so again. Hoping to increase a bit of your IQ, since you note your lack of it.
I'll take just one of the examples of election: Jesus Christ Himself
Elected to Serve
Jesus is described as The Elect (Chosen) One
Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Now, consider what Jesus Christ was chosen for:
Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Luke 22:27 - For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
So, the Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ is God’s Chosen One, and that He came to serve.
Now, let's see what the Bible says about angels.
Angels were elected to service:
1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
This verse plainly describes angels as spirits and "His servants".
Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
If this verse isn't crystal clear, you just don't want to know.
Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
These 3 verses are clear; an angel of God describes himself as a "fellow servant WITH" John.
OK, that's 2 different examples of who has been elected. Nothing about salvationn.
These verses do not reveal the purpose of election.
But, here are some verses that actually describe the purpose of election:
1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
Red words refer to who God has elected. Blue words refer to the actual purpose of that election. If you don't see the blue words as service, you really shouldn't be on this forum.
Acts 10:41 - on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead
God specifically chose certain people to be witnesses of the risen Christ. That is service, not salvation.
Of course. But then, you have already told me WHY above in your post.
Well, in the verses that did demonstrate service, was about those who were also elected/chosen. And I gave verses that specifically said so.
So, if you can't or won't connect the dots, it's understandable where your issue is.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please stop perpetuating these total untruths, and if you actually have any such verses, just quote them, for heaven's sake.
All you do is repeat that you have shown, but you haven't shown. So stop the untruths and prove yourself by quoting any verse that says what you claim.
You've NEVER EVER quoted any verse that shows that election is to salvation. You sure repeat yourself about having done so, but since all you can do is repeat your claim, rather than just re-quoting even 1 simple and clear verse, you have PROVEN that your claims are empty.
You aren't telling the truth because you haven't quoted any such verse. So quit repeating the untruth that you have.
Anyone who has such verses have no problem quoting them as many times as it takes to prove that they have them.
You DON'T have them, so you just keep repeating your empty claims.
Have some dignity. Either actually quote a verse that supports your claim, or quit making the claim.
Please stop perpetuating these total untruths, and if you actually have any such verses, just quote them, for heaven's sake.
All you do is repeat that you have shown, but you haven't shown. So stop the untruths and prove yourself by quoting any verse that says what you claim.
You've NEVER EVER quoted any verse that shows that election is to salvation. You sure repeat yourself about having done so, but since all you can do is repeat your claim, rather than just re-quoting even 1 simple and clear verse, you have PROVEN that your claims are empty.
You aren't telling the truth because you haven't quoted any such verse. So quit repeating the untruth that you have.
Anyone who has such verses have no problem quoting them as many times as it takes to prove that they have them.
You DON'T have them, so you just keep repeating your empty claims.
Have some dignity. Either actually quote a verse that supports your claim, or quit making the claim.
Okay, well, I read your post/analysis and thanks for including it, however, I have to say that its logic was tortured beyond belief: if a equal b then c must be true.... and then if c is true then if c = d then e must be true... and.....and...based upon those variables all being correct, then the conclusion is/must be the correct of election meaning election to service. Huh??? Really??? I noticed that except for Eph 1:4 (which substantiates my position, not yours) you didn't supply any verses that referred to election, the rest only mentioning service - not good for making your point. I guess that since you wanted to find it so badly you were able to convince yourself it was there. I think you found service but then also needed a cause to associate it to, so you tried to reverse engineer into election.
I also noticed that you neglected the verses I supplied that unquestionably pertained to election. Be that as it may, the following verses, though only a few, logically cover the aspects of election (if you are willing to read and think about them closely enough) and refutes the claim you made to brightfame52 (or was it Grandpa or both?) that there is nothing in the Bible that pertains to election and salvation.
[Rom 11:5-8 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
**The remnant (the elect) obtained grace, and by that grace they have also unquestionably obtained salvation. Election to service is neither expressly nor implicitly referenced by those verses.
True Christians are undoubtedly called to service but is unrelated to their election per se.
[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I also noticed that you neglected the verses I supplied that unquestionably pertained to election. Be that as it may, the following verses, though only a few, logically cover the aspects of election (if you are willing to read and think about them closely enough) and refutes the claim you made to brightfame52 (or was it Grandpa or both?) that there is nothing in the Bible that pertains to election and salvation.
[Rom 11:5-8 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
**The remnant (the elect) obtained grace, and by that grace they have also unquestionably obtained salvation. Election to service is neither expressly nor implicitly referenced by those verses.
True Christians are undoubtedly called to service but is unrelated to their election per se.
[Eph 2:10 KJV] 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Are you kidding or am I misunderstanding you? Esau was the elder, yet God hated him before even being born. The verse tells us that God can bless whomever He wants in whatever way He wants, and He owes no explanation to anyone for it. It was NOT that Esau was giving service to Jacob (if that's what you mean). It was that God had placed Esau into a position underneath Jacob's. God did this as demonstration of a temporal allegory to teach spiritual election.
[Rom 9:12-13 KJV] 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[Rom 9:12-13 KJV] 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.