Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Oblio · Mar 30, 2022

"For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but receive eternal life."
I haven't changed the gospel, I just told of how He put it in my heart. Though I'm sure it doesn't line up with some doctrines.
Since I overcome by the blood of the Lamb, the word of my testimony, and I do not shrink back from death, I testify of my experience of the Lord.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2022

Oblio said:

As long as your experience does line up with biblical doctrine, it's ok. It is when one's experience doesn't line up with biblical doctrine that's a problem.

Oblio · Mar 30, 2022

"And Isaiah boldly says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me." - Romans 10:20
Sounds to me like you're saying I have a problem when my salvation experience doesn't line up with your doctrine. I can live with that...can you?

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Iconoclast said:

It doesn't matter what you say, or the verses that you might post to freegrace2 he is unable to understand or perceive them - at least for now. I've lost count of how many times I posted the same verses over and over to him, but he was/is unable to grasp them. For example, he often posts about obedience in the Bible and relative to faith, it being our responsibility to achieve, without first having f researched from the Bible about what that means. I've repeatedly posted the following verses to him.

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

By the words "by whom" above, we can know that our faith, our obedience to faith, and our apostleship as true believes, have come from His grace and are not of ourselves: they are gifts from God. Yet, for some reason, he remains obvious to it.

Magenta · Mar 30, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Romans 1:16-17

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Magenta said:

The gospel itself is the power of God that brings salvation. If it were up to us in any way to achieve, it wouldn't be by the gospels power it would be by our power, which is impossible. The gospel's power isn't in the reading of words, but by the Holy Spirit. And for those who have been given belief and given understanding, they come to realize that it is by God's power, and by God's power alone.

Magenta · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

Isaiah 45:22 + Revelation 3:20

Revelation 22:16-17

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Magenta said:

But, the question you didn't answer is who are they who can or will 'hear"?

Answer:

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

So, only certain can hear with spiritual ears or see with spiritual eyes -- it is to, and for, those to whom it is given

Magenta · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

the question you didn't answer is who are they who can or will 'hear"?

Answer:

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

So, only certain can hear with spiritual ears or see with spiritual eyes -- it is to, and for, those to whom it is given

I did not see you ask me that question...

God makes all things possible, I agree

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Magenta said:

Right, I didn't, but I guess I thought for your reply to be complete you would have included it -- my mistake.

Magenta · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

John 12:31-32

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Magenta said:

Sorry, not exactly sure of your point? If it is the "all men" part, first, I think that the word "men" isn't actually in the verse; second
what does "all" actually represent and consist of? Does it mean everyone ever born? I don't believe so. As always, we should go back to the Bible to allow it to define itself for us as it is it's own dictionary and glossary of terms - and the actual meaning may not be immediately obvious by the particular verse itself. I think in this case, what is meant is explained by these verses:

[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So, based upon them, "all" would represent those that the Father has given to Christ. if I've misunderstood your point, please
let me know.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 30, 2022

brightfame52 said:

In Noticed you added the unconditionally part lol

so all that stuff paul repeatedly writes to the church doesn’t apply to the church ?
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this doesn’t apply to these “ unconditionally elected people “? Of course this wouldn’t either right ?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all this stuff is just not applicable ? I wonder why Paul kept repeatedly writing it tonthe church ? Seems like he was trying to teach them to not be deceived

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but I guess when we want it to be unconditional the scripture doesn’t really matter huh ?

Pilgrimshope · Mar 30, 2022

UnnamedConcerned said:

“It has never been by works (keeping of the law)”

so the terms god set in the law don’t apply ?

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They had no choice though ?

“Old and New Covenant, it's always been by grace through faith”

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s found right here and this has always been what saves

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those who consistently reject his words though and claim faith are deceiving themselves into this group

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but the truth is the more you hear of Gods word you begin Toni see stand he’s always given a choice of either life or death even Adam had a choice just like the law said they had a choice just like Jesus says there’s a choice just like Paul teaches ect

all Adam had to do was believe gods word too

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

but instead they ( his wife and also him ) ignored what God said about life and death and listened to the one telling them it wasn’t true

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: …she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4, 6‬ ‭

All they had to do was believe what God said to them. Just like the Gospel believing what Jesus has said about salvstion rather than rejecting it and creating our own idea or reading a Joseph prince book instead

it’s always and will always be the same if we reject what God is saying gives us life well Never have life. The new covenant is everything Jesus Christ the lord said , the condition is to hear what he is saying and believe what he said and follow him

that’s where grace and faith is actually found hearing what Jesus said about salvation he is the author of it and the only one who can give life we have to go to him and believe it’s always been mans life to do so

rogerg · Mar 30, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Think you misunderstand the Bible. When those who are elect become saved/born again, they do not just wake up one morning knowing all Christian doctrines of behavior. Instead, they must learn from Scripture. In your last highlighted verses, you seem to miss the "children of disobedience" part. The "children of disobedience" are the unsaved, possibly non-elect. As unsaved, they will not be able to comprehend the symbolism of that verse and the directions it actually sets-forth, so they will not be able to conform to it. While the elect need to be informed, they will come to an understanding of the admonition, take it to heart, and try to conform to it. The part you miss is that in the following of it, the elect do not become saved because they are already saved. The
children of disobedience on the other hand believe that it, along with the following of other biblical admonitions, will lead them to salvation.

fredoheaven · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

This is the way I see it when Paul says about the gospel which is indeed "the power of God unto salvation". Paul continued by saying " to every one that believeth" Obviously, those who heard the gospel preaching of Paul will be granted of salvation once they believe. Once they reject the gospel, that power of the gospel to save has no effect on them. Salvation is for all but only those whosoever will be saved.

brightfame52 · Mar 30, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

In Noticed you added the unconditionally part lol

so all that stuff paul repeatedly writes to the church doesn’t apply to the church ?
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this doesn’t apply to these “ unconditionally elected people “? Of course this wouldn’t either right ?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all this stuff is just not applicable ? I wonder why Paul kept repeatedly writing it tonthe church ? Seems like he was trying to teach them to not be deceived

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but I guess when we want it to be unconditional the scripture doesn’t really matter huh ?

Nothing has changed, some jews are Gods elect and some gentiles are just as some jews were Gods elect and some Gentiles are. Some jews are the children of God, and some gentiles are.

brightfame52 · Mar 30, 2022

fredoheaven said:

You have it backwards, when the Gospel is the power of God it causes conversion to faith, and it only comes in power to Gods elect 1 Thess 1:4-5

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Magenta · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

John 12:32 ►

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Berean Study Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

New King James Version
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

New American Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.

NASB 1995
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NASB 1977
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Amplified Bible
And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].

Christian Standard Bible
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

Contemporary English Version
If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Good News Translation
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me."

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself.

Literal Standard Version
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

New American Bible
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.

NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

New Revised Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

New Heart English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to myself.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 30, 2022

rogerg said:

This is just laughable! You have NO ability to assess my ability to understand or perceive. And the verses you keep repeating do NOT say what you keep claiming they mean. But you don't even seem to understand that.

I've never argued against obedience. In fact, obedience is the ONLY WAY to earn reward.

[UOTE]By the words "by whom" above, we can know that our faith, our obedience to faith, and our apostleship as true believes, have come from His grace and are not of ourselves: they are gifts from God.[/QUOTE]
If you will EVER find a verse that SAYS our faith is a gift from God, please share. And Eph 2:8 does NOT say that.

Thanks for noting that I absolutely do remain obvious to the truth of Scripture. Unlike yourself.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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