Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Read the following S-L-O-W-L-Y and absorb it, let it sink in, and if you do, let me know, and I will post more.
You make assumptions and associations in your post the Bible doesn't, and can't, support.
Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it so. You' make giant leaps of logic that are wrong and unsupportable.
I really don't have any hope you will be able to understand this all, and even if you do, you won't admit to it, nevertheless, here it is.

Here is the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.
Sorry brother The covenant God made with Israel was in Gen 12, 15 and 17. The passages I showed you.
These passages here are just passages which show according to the mosaic covenant what they have to do if they want to enjoy the gift that was given to them

as for the rest of your post.

Read SLOWLY Absorb it and let it sink in (two can play this game)

1. Nothing you posted above was the covenant between God and Israel which was given to abraham
2. What you posted above goes along with Lev 26. In which God said things concerning the covenant


Promise of Blessing and Retribution
26 ‘You shall not make idols for yourselves;
neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves;
nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it;
for I am the Lord your God.

Lev 26"
2 You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary:
I am the Lord.

For Obedience

3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,
4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil[b] beasts,
and the sword will not go through your land.
7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;
your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.
9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
11 I will set My [c]tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.
13 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves;
I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk [d]upright.


For disobedience
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,
15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed [e]in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.


If after this you do not obey!
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.


If after this you do not obey
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.


And if after this you do not obey
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.

And after this if you do not obey

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.

31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness[i] into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.



But even after doing all this (and the things you continually post to me...
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—


42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.


43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.

44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.

45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ”


46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Don;t just read a few passages that seem to support your theories. Read the whole word.

You said the Abrahamic covenent did not include the nation or the land. I proved otherwise. You came back, not even responding to what I posted. and tried to get me to look at your passage, refusing to look at the passages I showed.

Now you have another one which proves you in error. Will you continue to act like you are. Or will you humble yourself and stop with the nonsense and read the passages?

Sadly from our conversation, I expect you will continue to call me arrogant and unlearned while you continue to fail to practice what you preach

I pray you prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
As you can see by my prior post, God's covenant with the nation of Israel was
conditionally based.

No! It was not!! It was unconditional, it was everlasting. You're utterly wrong. Like I said, rip those pages out of your Bible and throw them in the garbage if you're going to deny them. Unreal.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Taking 30 verses out of context doesn't make you right. The Covenant with Abraham came before that. It was a promise of land, it was unconditional it was everlasting. Anything you try to poke in after that is nonsensical. You cannot undo an unconditional covenant. The land was given to Abraham. The promise continued. It cannot be broken. There's no need for slllloww reading or posting more Scripture that has nothing to do with the subject. It looks like people here don't know their covenants, or what a covenant means or how they are made. Wow!! It's time to go back to Sunday School. smh
He is speaking of the mosaic covenant and trying to relate that with the abrahamic covenant given in Gen 12, 15, and 17

He does not understand while they are related in part. The mosaic does not overrule or overtake the abrahamic.

The mosaic is conditional

The abrahimic is not
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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As you can see by my prior post, God's covenant with the nation of Israel was
conditionally based. It contained both promises to their good and promises to their hurt depending upon their actions.
As they did NOT meet those requirements due to their own actions, therefore, the nation of Israel lost its special
standing with God: God invoked the stipulations that divorced Israel from God, and with it, lost forever its blessings as a nation.
However, the eternal, spiritual, Israel, the new Israel, with its holy city, the new Jerusalem
can never lose it because it was not achieved by the actions of its inhabitants but solely by/through Christ and His achievement and therefore, remains with God for ever.

[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Nope

Your tryign to relate the mosaic covenant with the abrahamic

while your right, the mosaic is conditions. The abrahamic is not.

I proved that to you when I posted Gen 12 15 and 17 (there are more. I just posted these three)

God does not break his promises my friend.

Nice try though
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Spiritual Israel, not national Israel - and I have already proven you wrong. There are two Israels - one spiritual, one earthly
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Your tryign to relate the mosaic covenant with the abrahamic
Where "everlasting " is mentioned, it is for spiritual Israel, not national Israel. National Israel CANNOT be eternal because it,
along with the entire current world, will be destroyed at the end of time. You do believe in Christ as Saviour, don't you? What do you think
he achieved?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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No! It was not!! It was unconditional, it was everlasting. You're utterly wrong. Like I said, rip those pages out of your Bible and throw them in the garbage if you're going to deny them. Unreal.
Oh my. I told you before that if you didn't separate the two Israel's in your understanding you would get confused and
unable to reconcile scripture.


[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I didn't take anything out of context. Your statement is what everyone who can't answer the points
falls back upon. The everlasting covenant/blessings to Abraham were for spiritual Israel,
No, you are denying Scripture, there is no "spiritual Israel" here. It is a literal place. You're being obtuse because you need to to be allegorical to fix your narrative.


not to national Israel. It is impossible that a contradiction can exist within the Bible so the Israel of the blessings could not be national Israel which was evidenced by God's
divorcing of it. The covenant WAS NOT broken - it was for spiritual Israel - those who would become Christians throughout time.
You do see that God divorced national Israel, don't you and can't remarry her?
And Genesis 15:18 states, “On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates.’” This is a very literal land. Heaven is not described, even allegorically, as the area between the river of Egypt and the Euphrates.


God told Abraham, “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions” (Genesis 15:13-14).


Israel’s departure from the Promised Land was literal because they went into a literal Egypt. After four hundred years they became a nation of two to three million people and they physically left a literal Egypt for a literal Promised Land – not heaven.


The title deed to the Promised Land was passed from Abraham to Isaac. God said to Isaac, “Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father” (Genesis 26:3).

The title deed to the Promised Land was then passed to Jacob from Isaac. In Genesis 28:13, God said, “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.”

You have to be in a very literal land to lie on it !!

In Genesis 15, God commanded Abraham to take a heifer, a she-goat, a ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon; and all were split in half except the birds. God placed Abraham in a deep sleep, for no man can look upon God and live, as He prepared to enter a blood covenant with Abraham.


In his sleep, Abraham saw “a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces” (Genesis 15:17). In the Old Testament, the burning lamp signified the presence of the Shekinah Glory of God. God was binding Himself, unconditionally, by a blood covenant to Abraham and his descendants forever, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land” (Genesis 15:18).


Done, over, nothing left to say. 100% proof, end of the story, period.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Done, over, nothing left to say. 100% proof, end of the story, period.
Well, you may believe that if you'd like but it is a logical impossibility for you to be correct.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
He is speaking of the mosaic covenant and trying to relate that with the abrahamic covenant given in Gen 12, 15, and 17

He does not understand while they are related in part. The mosaic does not overrule or overtake the abrahamic.

The mosaic is conditional

The abrahimic is not


Correct!! And we have given him 100% proof right out of the Word yet he denies it. That's why I say rip it out. I showed absolute proof AGAIN!! See how he ignores it again.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Well, you may believe that if you'd like but it is a logical impossibility for you to be correct.

That's what the Word says, so it can't be impossible.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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That's what the Word says, so it can't be impossible.
The word isn't impossible, your interpretation is logically impossible.

So tell me this, kaylagrl, define Israel for me in general terms if you would. What comprises it, and what does it consist of especially today? Is it its people, or land? What blessings are they to receive? Eternal life? For whom? Every Jew ever born including non-Jew inhabiting it since Abaham, or are there exceptions? When you say God chose at the time of Abraham to bless it, what does that mean for Israel today? If not all Jews or non-Jews are blessed for salvation, then those blessings cannot be of the Israel you describe due to their belonging to it. So to summarize, explain an Israel that fits all requirements, please
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Spiritual Israel, not national Israel - and I have already proven you wrong. There are two Israels - one spiritual, one earthly
Spiritual Israel was never promised land in Gen 12- 15 and 17

You have no proven anyone wrong my friend.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Where "everlasting " is mentioned, it is for spiritual Israel, not national Israel. National Israel CANNOT be eternal because it,
along with the entire current world, will be destroyed at the end of time. You do believe in Christ as Saviour, don't you? What do you think
he achieved?
lol

Please show me spiritual Israel in Gen 12 - 15 and 17

And please respond as to why spiritual Israel is not living in the land of Canaan now living in peace as God promised.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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kaylagrl said:
That's what the Word says, so it can't be impossible.
The word isn't impossible, your interpretation is logically impossible.
Too often claims are made but never backed up with Scripture.

Are you able to explain clearly and from Scripture how kaylagrl's understanding is "logically impossible".

So tell me this, kaylagrl, define Israel for me in general terms if you would. What comprises it, and what does it consist of especially today? Is it its people, or land? What blessings are they to receive? Eternal life? For whom? Every Jew ever born including non-Jew inhabiting it since Abaham, or are there exceptions? When you say God chose at the time of Abraham to bless it, what does that mean for Israel today? If not all Jews or non-Jews are blessed for salvation, then those blessings cannot be of the Israel you describe due to their belonging to it. So to summarize, explain an Israel that fits all requirements, please
So, instead of a "logical explanation" of how kaylagrl's understanding isn't logical, you---
2 requests
9 questions

You haven't proven your own "understanding".
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Oh my. I told you before that if you didn't separate the two Israel's in your understanding you would get confused and
unable to reconcile scripture.


[Rev 21:1-2 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
GOD separated the two Israels my friend.

Gen 12, In you shall all the nations be blessed.. - this is spiritual Israel

Gen 12 - 15 - 17 I give you this land, and all your descendants after you as an eternal gift. - This is PHYSICAL Israel. it is NOT spiritual Israel
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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No, you are denying Scripture, there is no "spiritual Israel" here. It is a literal place. You're being obtuse because you need to to be allegorical to fix your narrative.




And Genesis 15:18 states, “On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates.’” This is a very literal land. Heaven is not described, even allegorically, as the area between the river of Egypt and the Euphrates.


God told Abraham, “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions” (Genesis 15:13-14).


Israel’s departure from the Promised Land was literal because they went into a literal Egypt. After four hundred years they became a nation of two to three million people and they physically left a literal Egypt for a literal Promised Land – not heaven.

The title deed to the Promised Land was passed from Abraham to Isaac. God said to Isaac, “Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father” (Genesis 26:3).

The title deed to the Promised Land was then passed to Jacob from Isaac. In Genesis 28:13, God said, “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.”

You have to be in a very literal land to lie on it !!

In Genesis 15, God commanded Abraham to take a heifer, a she-goat, a ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon; and all were split in half except the birds. God placed Abraham in a deep sleep, for no man can look upon God and live, as He prepared to enter a blood covenant with Abraham.


In his sleep, Abraham saw “a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces” (Genesis 15:17). In the Old Testament, the burning lamp signified the presence of the Shekinah Glory of God. God was binding Himself, unconditionally, by a blood covenant to Abraham and his descendants forever, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land” (Genesis 15:18).


Done, over, nothing left to say. 100% proof, end of the story, period.
again, They will only see what they want..
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
2,609
828
113
The word isn't impossible, your interpretation is logically impossible.

So tell me this, kaylagrl, define Israel for me in general terms if you would. What comprises it, and what does it consist of especially today? Is it its people, or land? What blessings are they to receive? Eternal life? For whom? Every Jew ever born including non-Jew inhabiting it since Abaham, or are there exceptions? When you say God chose at the time of Abraham to bless it, what does that mean for Israel today? If not all Jews or non-Jews are blessed for salvation, then those blessings cannot be of the Israel you describe due to their belonging to it. So to summarize, explain an Israel that fits all requirements, please
Your interpretation is not only Not logical. It can not be explained logically.

God defined Israel for you in Gen 12 15 and 17, You have not once looked at those passages. and explained how to get spiritual Israel from those passages You claim Israel was not part of the abrahamic covenant, Thats why you wont look at them, Because in doing so you would have to admit you were wrong.

sorry Bro. But you need to stop attacking Kayla and start looking to the passages yourself.