Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Not sure what you mean? Context:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Context: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. <= those penning Scripture.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Context: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. <= those penning Scripture.
Sorry, I posted the same verse twice but corrected it afterwards.

No, not by "one's own interpretation" - by "private interpretation". The only way one could know that it is not of their own interpretation
is if they compare it to other verses, right? But "private interpretation" means that the intent of a verse should not be determined by that single verse alone.
 

rogerg

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So John the Baptist wasn't born into a state condemned before God, I would gather.
If he was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, then he was saved in the womb -it is possible for someone to be saved in the womb because God can save whomever, whenever He chooses to. God can do that.
Otherwise, no elect baby in the womb could be saved should they die there.
 

rogerg

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I am not sure how you missed the verse citation... which does support my belief, btw.
Okay, so it seems that you're saying those saved by Christ aren't under the law, and as such, will not experience the second death. Do I understand you correctly?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Okay, so it seems that you're saying those saved by Christ aren't under the law, and as such, will not experience the second death. Do I understand you correctly?

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

:)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Okay, so it seems that you're saying those saved by Christ aren't under the law, and as such, will not experience the second death. Do I understand you correctly?
So not under the law. So we don’t have to keep any of the 10 commandments? They’re in the law.
 

rogerg

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So not under the law. So we don’t have to keep any of the 10 commandments? They’re in the law.
Not to become saved. All needed for salvation was achieved perfectly by Christ.
After salvation, in becoming a new person, we are led by the Holy Spirit to live in a moral manner.

We do so from being saved, not to be saved
 

Magenta

Senior Member
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Hmmm - okay, I guess I came into the conversation in the middle without paying attention, and missed your earlier post(s).
It could have started in another thread, but the convo on a few points around this has been ongoing for maybe
a couple of weeks now... a number of members were objecting to the term total depravity while rejecting what
it really means and then eventually agreeing with the essence of it, which is that man of himself in his natural
state does not seek after God, and it is God working in us that prepares us to accept the gospel message. That
we are in fact enabled to accept, before we choose Christ. Those who were vehemently opposed almost all
agreed with this, while kicking against it at the same time, and were so lacking in their understanding of how
widely accepted this is based on Scripture, that they were unaware of the fact that it is not just Calvinists
who accept this, but that Arminians do, too. I also informed them that Molinists call it radical depravity.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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It could have started in another thread, but the convo on a few points around this has been ongoing for maybe
a couple of weeks now... a number of members were objecting to the term total depravity while rejecting what
it really means and then eventually agreeing with the essence of it, which is that man of himself in his natural
state does not seek after God, and it is God working in us that prepares us to accept the gospel message. That
we are in fact enabled to accept, before we choose Christ. Those who were vehemently opposed almost all
agreed with this, while kicking against it at the same time, and were so lacking in their understanding of how
widely accepted this is based on Scripture, that they were unaware of the fact that it is not just Calvinists
who accept this, but that Arminians do, too. I also informed them that Molinists call it radical depravity.
I am a simple person. To me, everything comes down to this simple doctrine: that Jesus Christ alone, fully and completely, is the Saviour
in all possible ways.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I am a simple person. To me, everything comes down to this simple doctrine:
that Jesus Christ alone, fully and completely, is the Saviourin all possible ways.
Amen :)


Jesus' Words in John 6:65
:)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I pretty much agree with that except for "enable". I understand that to be "draw". Subtle but important difference.
There's two parts really. No one can, and then, unless... it is given or granted seem to be what most versions say.

But yes, God draws us with loving kindness :D
.
New International Version
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


New Living Translation
Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”


English Standard Version
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”


Berean Standard Bible
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”


Berean Literal Bible
And He was saying, "Because of this, I have said to you that no one is able
to come to Me, unless it shall have been granted to him from the Father."


King James Bible
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


New King James Version
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”


New American Standard Bible
And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


NASB 1995
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


NASB 1977
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


Legacy Standard Bible
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


Amplified Bible
And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me
unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”


Christian Standard Bible
He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father.”


Holman Christian Standard Bible
He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.”


American Standard Version
And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he said to them, “Because of this, I said to you that no man can come to me unless it has been given to him from my Father.”


Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."


Douay-Rheims Bible
And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.


English Revised Version
And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


Good News Translation
And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."


International Standard Version
So he said, "That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father."


Literal Standard Version
and He said, “Because of this I have said to you, No one is able to come to Me if it may not have been given him from My Father.”


Majority Standard Bible
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless My Father has granted it to him.”


New American Bible
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”


NET Bible
So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come."


New Revised Standard Version
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.”


New Heart English Bible
He said, "For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by the Father."


Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, Therefore I said to you, that no man can come to me, except it were given to him by my Father.


Weymouth New Testament
So He added, "That is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father."


World English Bible
He said, “For this cause I have said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.”


Young's Literal Translation
and he said, 'Because of this I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Not to become saved. All needed for salvation was achieved perfectly by Christ.
After salvation, in becoming a new person, we are led by the Holy Spirit to live in a moral manner.

We do so from being saved, not to be saved
So keeping the 10 commandments is evidence of having salvation? Okay, do you keep them?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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So keeping the 10 commandments is evidence of having salvation? Okay, do you keep them?
that's not what I said. I said everything for salvation was achieved by Christ, not in the keeping of the law or commandments by us.
Did you not understand my post?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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that's not what I said. I said everything for salvation was achieved by Christ, not in the keeping of the law or commandments by us.
Did you not understand my post?
I'm sorry, I think while I was still thinking of the question in regards to the 10 commandments, you referred to being led by the Holy Spirit to live in a "moral manner." I didn't switch gears since I believe God defines what morals are and the 10 commandments reflect morality. Is that accurate to you?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Off the top, yes, but I'd like to have a cup of coffee (or two) and ponder your reply more before I reply.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also
one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18


Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that
every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19-20


Who is under the law, Bob?

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
Hi Magenta. I just observed that in your post of Romans 5:12 the translation was different from my King James Version. Your "one trespass" reads " by the offense of one" in my bible. Yours is talking about a trespass and mine is talking about a person.
Also, Your "righteous act" reads "righteousness of one" in my Bible. Yours is talking about an act and mine talks about a person.
Just a friendly suggestion: Get a better version of your Bible. I didn't check for the accuracy of the other verses.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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I am a simple person. To me, everything comes down to this simple doctrine: that Jesus Christ alone, fully and completely, is the Saviour
in all possible ways.
I agree with you, but you left something out. The Father does not allow sinners in heaven, so He perfects us through His Spirit and Christ's Spirit so that we are filled with the amount of Love necessary to be able to obey the Spirit of the Law which is to Love God first with all your mind, heart, and soul and everyone else second as you love yourself. If all our thoughts and actions are motivated by this love, we will be perfected and no longer considered as sinners.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Since you and I (and everybody else) merit NOTHING but hellfire, obviously everything for everybody is of grace.

And CONVICTION of SIN, and of Judgement is the beginning of FAITH (God's WORD to us.
Sorry Gods Grace isnt for everybody, everybody isnt and wont be saved. As I stated, Grace saves ! God gives only a remnant Grace, the rest He gives them what they deserve, hell for their sins.