Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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True enough. If everyone was meant to be saved they wouldn't need saving . They would be in God's grace the moment they're born.
The grace in election was given to the elect in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

And each one of these will be the recipient of a effectual Holy Call in time that will seperate them from the world and convert to Christ !
 

brightfame52

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Yes, and it is also possible to be saved in/from the womb too.
Those who were chosen in Christ before the world began, from a eternal perspective of salvation/justification are already saved/justified when they are born into this world dead in sins. But its certain they will be regenerated, called to faith in Christ sooner or later !
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Those who were chosen in Christ before the world began, from a eternal perspective of salvation/justification are already saved/justified when they are born into this world dead in sins. But its certain they will be regenerated, called to faith in Christ sooner or later !
Paul sure was a fool going through the things he went through to make sure those already saved would get saved.;)

2 Corinthians 11
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Paul sure was a fool going through the things he went through to make sure those already saved would get saved.;)

2 Corinthians 11
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
Paul went through a lot for the elects sake ! 2 Tim 2:9-10

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 

John146

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Paul went through a lot for the elects sake ! 2 Tim 2:9-10

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Elect in this passage is the nation of Israel, his brethren according to the flesh. Elect is always to service and never to salvation.

If they are elect according to Calvin, they already have salvation. They don't need to obtain it.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I'm sorry, I think while I was still thinking of the question in regards to the 10 commandments, you referred to being led by the Holy Spirit to live in a "moral manner." I didn't switch gears since I believe God defines what morals are and the 10 commandments reflect morality. Is that accurate to you?
Now that I'm awake and thinking about it, no, I don't agree with that - anything we do to attempt to satisfy law or commandment because of law or commandment, will not achieve it, in fact, it makes it work - no one is saved by their works. We can only act morally if the Holy Spirit leads us to it having given us a renewed mind, heart and associated desire, so it is by that desire and not by law. Nevertheless, no Christian can do it perfectly, but neither is their salvation placed in jeopardy by that.
For those saved, they are no longer under law.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Hi Magenta. I just observed that in your post of Romans 5:12 the translation was different from my King James Version. Your "one trespass" reads " by the offense of one" in my bible. Yours is talking about a trespass and mine is talking about a person.
Yours does not say person, either. You read it in, just as any rational person would know
that a person is being spoken of in relation to the trespass in the version I quoted from.


Also, Your "righteous act" reads "righteousness of one" in my Bible Yours is talking about an act and mine talks about a person.
Both translations are referring to both the act and a person.
Just a friendly suggestion: Get a better version of your Bible. I didn't check for the accuracy of the other verses.
I source from a number of translations for a broader and deeper understanding, with a preference for the Berean Study Bible overall. The Berean Study Bible utilizes both “word for word” and “thought for thought” approaches in the translation process, and includes an interlinear Bible so anyone can directly follow the Greek and Hebrew texts. Just as you have found issues with my preference, others have found many issues with your preference.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Yes. Christ never sinned even a single time. Or do you say otherwise?
Well guess what ? When Christ kept all the commandments of God, so did everyone He was Surety Head for. So when He did, they did, and so the righteousness of the Law by Him is fulfilled in them. Just as when Adam disobeyed and they did so in him, likewise when Christ obeyed, they did so in Him. So those whom Christ lived and died for through Him keep all the commandments. Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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john146

Elect in this passage is the nation of Israel,
Thats absolutely false , it was for mainly Gentiles. He was sent to preach to them mainly 2 Tim 1:11


Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4:17

Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

In fact much of the persecution he endured was from jews because they didnt accept gentiles.

God had a election of people amongst the Gentiles !
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Well guess what ? When Christ kept all the commandments of God, so did everyone He was Surety Head for. So when He did, they did, and so the righteousness of the Law by Him is fulfilled in them. Just as when Adam disobeyed and they did so in him, likewise when Christ obeyed, they did so in Him. So those whom Christ lived and died for through Him keep all the commandments. Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Read Romans 6. The bottom line is who you obey- sin or righteousness. One leads to death and the other leads to life. Paul addressed the obvious question “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!” and concluded that obeying sin ultimately leads to death.

Holiness leads to eternal life. You can’t become holy if you’re sinning all the time. Therefore, the correct response is to obey righteousness and it’s a choice.

Romans 6
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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john146



Thats absolutely false , it was for mainly Gentiles. He was sent to preach to them mainly 2 Tim 1:11


Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4:17

Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

In fact much of the persecution he endured was from jews because they didnt accept gentiles.

God had a election of people amongst the Gentiles !
Yes I know, but when Paul went into a new city he always went to the synagogue first to preach to the Jews in that area.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Now that I'm awake and thinking about it, no, I don't agree with that - anything we do to attempt to satisfy law or commandment because of law or commandment, will not achieve it, in fact, it makes it work - no one is saved by their works. We can only act morally if the Holy Spirit leads us to it having given us a renewed mind, heart and associated desire, so it is by that desire and not by law. Nevertheless, no Christian can do it perfectly, but neither is their salvation placed in jeopardy by that.
For those saved, they are no longer under law.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Paul said he isn’t free from God’s law, but is under Christ’s law. Do you think Paul would agree with your perspective?

Romans 7
25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

1 Corinthians 9
21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Read Romans 6. The bottom line is who you obey- sin or righteousness. One leads to death and the other leads to life. Paul addressed the obvious question “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!” and concluded that obeying sin ultimately leads to death.

Holiness leads to eternal life. You can’t become holy if you’re sinning all the time. Therefore, the correct response is to obey righteousness and it’s a choice.

Romans 6
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
I just showed you that Christ has kept the Law for His People, by His obedience alone they are constituted righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Yes I know, but when Paul went into a new city he always went to the synagogue first to preach to the Jews in that area.
Im not going to argue with you. Paul was speaking about Gentiles in 2 Tim 2:10
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Paul said he isn’t free from God’s law, but is under Christ’s law. Do you think Paul would agree with your perspective?

Romans 7
25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

1 Corinthians 9
21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Yes, Christ made Paul a slave of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and
removed him from the law of sin and death. Those are the laws God cares about.


[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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Who is under the law, Bob?


Anybody who's not Born again by FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross.

Simple as that. Which DOESN'T MEAN that we shouldn't OBEY THE LAW as Christians, only that the law no longer has the power to DAMN US.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Anybody who's not Born again by FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross.

Simple as that. Which DOESN'T MEAN that we shouldn't OBEY THE LAW as Christians, only that the law no longer has the power to DAMN US.
Right. And ALL others are under condemnation. From birth, being a "natural man."

By nature deserving of wrath.
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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Right. And ALL others are under condemnation. From birth, being a "natural man."

By nature deserving of wrath.
JUST THINK of all the po' little babies unborn and otherwise being tortured in HELL for being conceived!!! Boggles the mind!!