Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Icedaisey]

You don't believe we're all dead in sin until becoming saved? How does a spiritually dead person give themselves spiritual life?
Can a physically dead person give themselves physical life if they just try hard enough? Can a spiritually dead person
give themselves spiritual life if they just try hard enough?
Were it not for God's intervention and mercy, no one would, or should, be given spiritual life.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Amen!
The Message of the Cross
1 Corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”b
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,c 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks Icedaisey, I never considered that possibility but will henceforth keep it in mind

just pray you do not become like her. Who when she can not fight anyone, resorts to belittling, personal attacks and if all else fail ignores them.

Calvinists are my brothers. We just have a disagreement of Hod God predestines people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thats funny, I just got a red X from a person for calling him my brother

 

[rogerg]

Thats funny, I just got a red X from a person for calling him my brother

for saying not to be like Icedaisey

 

[Icedaisey]

Thanks Icedaisey, I never considered that possibility but will henceforth keep it in mind

I never imagined such people would be on Christian forums when I first got on-line. Then I soon discovered they're out there. Many also enjoy gas lighting Christians.
While their intention is to make us angry and act out as they do, what I've found happens more often than not is they serve God's will by being what they are.
They reiterate the difference between those called by God, and those railing against their darkness. They can mock, ridicule, defame, slander, God, Jesus, the Gospel, scripture, as they like. However, all that does is reiterate what scripture tells us about those without the eyes to see or ears to hear. As God wills.
They commit to those actions because the Bible means nothing to them. They don't take it seriously. God isn't real, nor is Jesus, etc.... It's like a hobby. The stuff of anti-Christian Troll memes.

And in the end, when they're dead or dying, it ends. And they serve again as proof the word of God identified them then, and now.

On an upside, so as not to feed the darkness overmuch by paying it that much attention, probably have paid too much already, you might enjoy this. I can't PM you because I'm not a paid member but it may help and serve the on-line library of other Christians as well.
Don't let the reference to Calvinistic Apologetics concern you with thinking this article promotes Calvinism. It doesn't. I hope you find it beneficial. And the same for anyone who may open the readers link.

This linked version is the read only version of what is otherwise available as a PDF Download. (Option Linked)
GRATIA OMNIBUS (Latin: "THANKS TO ALL")
This article attempts to compare the anthropological theories of the different positions
concerning the grace doctrine. The article finds that the anthropological perspective of the
nature of human beings in the state of sin is controlling in determining beliefs in the theology
of sanctification and salvation, and dictates the Christian walk, especially with regard to the
confession of sin. The article concludes that if there is error in the understanding of human
anthropological origin, then there is error in the understanding of the application of grace unto
salvation. It stresses that Scripture should be the ultimate standard under which anthologies
of grace should be examined. The article also advances the relevance of traditions in modern
Christianity. The doctrine of grace will be briefly investigated through the exegesis of Paul’s
letter to the Ephesians, particularly 1:4–7 and 2:8–9. The Calvinistic apologetics on the doctrines
of grace is referred to throughout the article.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

for saying not to be like Icedaisey

I pray your not like her

You don‘t seem to be.

I mean she will not even answer my questions.. She ran When I confronted her about trying to impose the law on believers. A very uncalvinistic like characteristic I may add

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never imagined such people would be on Christian forums when I first got on-line. Then I soon discovered they're out there. Many also enjoy gas lighting Christians.
While their intention is to make us angry and act out as they do, what I've found happens more often than not is they serve God's will by being what they are.
They reiterate the difference between those called by God, and those railing against their darkness. They can mock, ridicule, defame, slander, God, Jesus, the Gospel, scripture, as they like. However, all that does is reiterate what scripture tells us about those without the eyes to see or ears to hear. As God wills.
They commit to those actions because the Bible means nothing to them. They don't take it seriously. God isn't real, nor is Jesus, etc.... It's like a hobby. The stuff of anti-Christian Troll memes.

And in the end, when they're dead or dying, it ends. And they serve again as proof the word of God identified them then, and now.

On an upside, so as not to feed the darkness overmuch by paying it that much attention, probably have paid too much already, you might enjoy this. I can't PM you because I'm not a paid member but it may help and serve the on-line library of other Christians as well.
Don't let the reference to Calvinistic Apologetics concern you with thinking this article promotes Calvinism. It doesn't. I hope you find it beneficial. And the same for anyone who may open the readers link.

This linked version is the read only version of what is otherwise available as a PDF Download. (Option Linked)
GRATIA OMNIBUS (Latin: "THANKS TO ALL")
This article attempts to compare the anthropological theories of the different positions
concerning the grace doctrine. The article finds that the anthropological perspective of the
nature of human beings in the state of sin is controlling in determining beliefs in the theology
of sanctification and salvation, and dictates the Christian walk, especially with regard to the
confession of sin. The article concludes that if there is error in the understanding of human
anthropological origin, then there is error in the understanding of the application of grace unto
salvation. It stresses that Scripture should be the ultimate standard under which anthologies
of grace should be examined. The article also advances the relevance of traditions in modern
Christianity. The doctrine of grace will be briefly investigated through the exegesis of Paul’s
letter to the Ephesians, particularly 1:4–7 and 2:8–9. The Calvinistic apologetics on the doctrines
of grace is referred to throughout the article.....

See how she attacks people. She attacks them then will not even talk to them

She will not discuss with them. She it typical of other lawyers.

Again, I just pray you do not become like her

 

[Icedaisey]

just pray you do not become like her. Who when she can not fight anyone, resorts to belittling, personal attacks and if all else fail ignores them.

Calvinists are my brothers. We just have a disagreement of Hod God predestines people.

Actually, those tactics are at your disposal, as you demonstrate throughout your post history.

Your remarks are telling of your heart. ""...when she cannot fight anymore...." You imagine Christians need fight in these forums? To defend the scriptures from the likes of you and yours who enter here intending to induce fights by denigrating the scripture as posers of that which holds respect for it. Then you proceed.

And when you're found out? We're not belittling or levying personal attacks as your kind know them so well. We're following the words of God.
Matthew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

Romans 16:17-18 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

1 Timothy 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them (1 John 3:6) in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Which is why I ignore you and others who are your kindred. The only reason I speak to you now is because of the comment that included my name by rogerg.

You and those on your same path are a shame. But only for this life's time.
I'll return you to your rightful place now. On ignore.

 

[Icedaisey]

Thats funny, I just got a red X from a person for calling him my brother

You're not his-our brother.

 

[1ofthem]

Probably very wise decision on your part. Mine eventually too.
There are far too many false people here who don't know the Bible at all, yet argue from their perspective of either total ignorance or callous hate for Christians.
I think those and the jokers aboard who are laughing prank prone children too, are here to see how long actual Christians will tolerate their lonely endeavors at slandering the scriptures. And positing false doctrine.

for saying not to be like Icedaisey

So what part of the above post do you find Christlike and acceptable?

People should be able to discuss scriptures without all the judgmental name-calling and questioning of other's salvation.

You don't seem to be the type of person to do those things, and that is one of the reasons that I was interested in having a discussion with you on this matter.

I was wanting to hear your thoughts while also giving you my thoughts about the topic. That's what discussion is all about. However, at no point should anyone of us be questioning each other's salvation or reverting to name-calling over simple disagreements in interpretation of scripture. That is not Christ-like.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, those tactics are at your disposal, as you demonstrate throughout your post history.

Your remarks are telling of your heart. ""...when she cannot fight anymore...." You imagine Christians need fight in these forums? To defend the scriptures from the likes of you and yours who enter here intending to induce fights by denigrating the scripture as posers of that which holds respect for it. Then you proceed.

And when you're found out? We're not belittling or levying personal attacks as your kind know them so well. We're following the words of God.
Matthew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”

Romans 16:17-18 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

1 Timothy 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them (1 John 3:6) in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Which is why I ignore you and others who are your kindred. The only reason I speak to you now is because of the comment that included my name by rogerg.

You and those on your same path are a shame. But only for this life's time.
I'll return you to your rightful place now. On ignore.

Se mam, Your the one attacking people. You call them all kinds of names. And keep telling everyone that those do not agree with you are all kinds of names and things

I am not the one causing division my friend. You are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're not his-our brother.

Lol

See what I mean? You just attack people

Now you have basically condemned me

Why don;t you talk to me about the word. Instead of attacking me.

Or is that to hard for you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what part of the above post do you find Christlike and acceptable?

People should be able to discuss scriptures without all the judgmental name-calling and questioning of other's salvation.

You don't seem to be the type of person to do those things, and that is one of the reasons that I was interested in having a discussion with you on this matter.

I was wanting to hear your thoughts while also giving you my thoughts about the topic. That's what discussion is all about. However, at no point should anyone of us be questioning each other's salvation or reverting to name-calling over simple disagreements in interpretation of scripture. That is not Christ-like.

Amen sister. Even though I did not agree with him. He seemed civil. Unlike the other one. Which is why I prayed he continued as he was. And was not influenced by the other.

 

[Mem]

Her introductory quote to me...

Perhaps we reject Sophistry. Because we believe what The Word made flesh tells us in his word. Sadly, many cannot accept that.

And to be clear, my post that recognize those who, as Jesus foretold, would not understand, is not saying those ones aren't Saved. God knows whom he calls. It is not for us to judge. That is, unless or until we encounter someone wholly opposed to the Gospel. Then we don't have to say they're not in Christ when they are.

And so I could see this coming a mile away.

I never imagined such people would be on Christian forums when I first got on-line. Then I soon discovered they're out there. Many also enjoy gas lighting Christians.
While their intention is to make us angry and act out as they do, what I've found happens more often than not is they serve God's will by being what they are.
They reiterate the difference between those called by God, and those railing against their darkness. They can mock, ridicule, defame, slander, God, Jesus, the Gospel, scripture, as they like. However, all that does is reiterate what scripture tells us about those without the eyes to see or ears to hear. As God wills.
They commit to those actions because the Bible means nothing to them. They don't take it seriously. God isn't real, nor is Jesus, etc.... It's like a hobby. The stuff of anti-Christian Troll memes.

And in the end, when they're dead or dying, it ends. And they serve again as proof the word of God identified them then, and now.

I can't help it, I laugh at jokes, it was predestinated :/

 

[Gardenias]

Her introductory quote to me...


And so I could see this coming a mile away.


I can't help it, I laugh at jokes, it was predestinated :/

Yes lol.
I'm the one she calls a child pulling pranks online.
Refused to believe I'm 64 years old and thennnnnn it might be true so I'm immature😂

Gotta laugh,a merry heart doeth good like a medicine 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[FreeGrace2]

rogerg said:
No one can truly look to, or see the cross UNTIL they are born again
FreeGrace2 said:
Then provide support for you claim in the Bible.

John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

This verse doesn't support for rogerg's claim.

The verse is about "seeing the kingdom of God". One must be born again to see it.

However, let's consider the broader context, so we can understand what John was getting at.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

v.3 is a question about what the kingdom of God looks like.
v.5 clarifies what John was getting at. In order to see what the kingdom of God looks like, one must ENTER it.

But, the ONLY WAY one can ENTER into the kingdom of God is to be born again.

 

[Icedaisey]

So what part of the above post do you find Christlike and acceptable?

People should be able to discuss scriptures without all the judgmental name-calling and questioning of other's salvation.

You don't seem to be the type of person to do those things, and that is one of the reasons that I was interested in having a discussion with you on this matter.

I was wanting to hear your thoughts while also giving you my thoughts about the topic. That's what discussion is all about. However, at no point should anyone of us be questioning each other's salvation or reverting to name-calling over simple disagreements in interpretation of scripture. That is not Christ-like.

That last part is where you're mistaken.

What is not Christ like are the tactics resorted to by that one I addressed briefly, and others who resort to the tactics you describe when they encounter Sisters and Brothers here who respect the words of God and engage in rational respectful debate only to find the ones they're debating are not of Christ mindedness in the least.
The scriptures I cited give us authority to expose them.

Those who aren't pursuing their beliefs out of genuine ignorance (not a slur) of scripture, but rather are insisting on false doctrine in order to insult true doctrine, and goad Christians to keep up their pursuit in trying to help the one(s) purposefully promoting falsehood just to see how long we'll end up repeating ourselves while they laugh at us openly or privately as they go off into another area of study, Exegesis, Soteriology, Apologetics, etc... just to continue as before only on a new subject to test our resolve while they remain amused.

And lastly, as to your judgment of following the aforementioned Biblical directives when exposing workers of darkness not being Christ like, do you forget how Jesus responded to Sanhedrin when they had him illegally arrested and brought to trial in the temple as recorded in Matthew 12?
In his day, those words to the high authority of the temple were like the worst curse words we could use in the world today.

I don't expect you to agree with my rightful judgment based on contact and experience with those I oppose.
I LOVE scripture! I love God who was/is my precious Jesus the Christ. I have no problem, nor should any Christian, with engaging with genuine sincere new believers, long serving believers, or genuine seekers after the calling of God, who enter here and seek community with those in Christ, when we share together in the Word.

What I have a problem with, as should any indwelt holy spirit baptized Christian, are wolves! Who enter in clad as sheep, are exposed by their behaviors as God intends that we may know they by their fruit, as they intend to disrespect God's word by outright lying, purposeful abrogation, and or blasphemy and heresy.

Those who are wrong, but seek to be set right have a very different profile and behavior.
Those who, for example, insist in a manner of speaking against scripture repeatedly, as in, God is not Sovereign over his creation, God's law, now for the Christian being the Law of Christ, is no longer in force. Only resorting to obscure language and allusion through interpolating scriptures out of context to make those claims, so that their fallback when held to account later is, "I never said that!"

No, I don't tolerate wolves intending to promote a profile of falsehood and disrespect for God, God's word and our Community in Christ.
They're going to Hell for all eternity when they die! And judged worthy of that fate, answering for every word they spoke, (as shall we in Christ), while they were Trolling Christian communities, and were in the world itself, according to God's word and judgment!
But you see, they don't believe that.

My calling them out now, as the scriptures command of us all, may just serve as a wake up call for them! If they are intended to be called by God, they may just pay attention to that after someone metaphorically smacks them on the nose with the Good Book, and tells them to KNOCK IT OFF!

And I do not apologize for pissing off the Devil.
It's my duty.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That last part is where you're mistaken.

What is not Christ like are the tactics resorted to by that one I addressed briefly, and others who resort to the tactics you describe when they encounter Sisters and Brothers here who respect the words of God and engage in rational respectful debate only to find the ones they're debating are not of Christ mindedness in the least.
The scriptures I cited give us authority to expose them.

Those who aren't pursuing their beliefs out of genuine ignorance (not a slur) of scripture, but rather are insisting on false doctrine in order to insult true doctrine, and goad Christians to keep up their pursuit in trying to help the one(s) purposefully promoting falsehood just to see how long we'll end up repeating ourselves while they laugh at us openly or privately as they go off into another area of study, Exegesis, Soteriology, Apologetics, etc... just to continue as before only on a new subject to test our resolve while they remain amused.

And lastly, as to your judgment of following the aforementioned Biblical directives when exposing workers of darkness not being Christ like, do you forget how Jesus responded to Sanhedrin when they had him illegally arrested and brought to trial in the temple as recorded in Matthew 12?
In his day, those words to the high authority of the temple were like the worst curse words we could use in the world today.

I don't expect you to agree with my rightful judgment based on contact and experience with those I oppose.
I LOVE scripture! I love God who was/is my precious Jesus the Christ. I have no problem, nor should any Christian, with engaging with genuine sincere new believers, long serving believers, or genuine seekers after the calling of God, who enter here and seek community with those in Christ, when we share together in the Word.

What I have a problem with, as should any indwelt holy spirit baptized Christian, are wolves! Who enter in clad as sheep, are exposed by their behaviors as God intends that we may know they by their fruit, as they intend to disrespect God's word by outright lying, purposeful abrogation, and or blasphemy and heresy.

Those who are wrong, but seek to be set right have a very different profile and behavior.
Those who, for example, insist in a manner of speaking against scripture repeatedly, as in, God is not Sovereign over his creation, God's law, now for the Christian being the Law of Christ, is no longer in force. Only resorting to obscure language and allusion through interpolating scriptures out of context to make those claims, so that their fallback when held to account later is, "I never said that!"

No, I don't tolerate wolves intending to promote a profile of falsehood and disrespect for God, God's word and our Community in Christ.
They're going to Hell for all eternity when they die! And judged worthy of that fate, answering for every word they spoke, (as shall we in Christ), while they were Trolling Christian communities, and were in the world itself, according to God's word and judgment!
But you see, they don't believe that.

My calling them out now, as the scriptures command of us all, may just serve as a wake up call for them! If they are intended to be called by God, they may just pay attention to that after someone metaphorically smacks them on the nose with the Good Book, and tells them to KNOCK IT OFF!

And I do not apologize for pissing off the Devil.
It's my duty.

Maam, You have not resorted to rational debate since you have been here

All you have done is belittle and attack anyone who does not agree with you.


oh and by the way. YOUR NOT GOD. YOU DO NOT GET TO CONDEMN ANYONE TO HELL. LET ALONE CALL THEM ANYTHING.

Keep on talking. Because everytime you do YOU PROVE ME RIGHT.

You want to talk bible. Let’s talk bible. I tried with you once and you would have nothing to do with. It.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You couldn't if you tried.

But go ahead and prove your presumption that God causes people to reject Him, because that is what "hardness of heart" is about.

Old or New Testament?

take your pick. I'm not picky.

Joshua 11

fail.

John 12
Belief and Unbelief
37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”g
39For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:
40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so that they cannot see with their eyes,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn,
and I would heal them.”h
Footnote h
Isaiah 6:10
10Make the hearts of this people calloused;
deafen their ears and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.c”
Footnote c
10 c Hebrew; LXX For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.  Cited in Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:12, John 12:40, and Acts 28:27

fail. again.

Without a specific verse, stating "Joshua 11" proves nothing.

Regarding John 12, that is a quote from Isa 6:9,10, which you have noted.

However, this is how that Isa 6:9,10 is quoted by Paul in Acts 28-
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

You can cherry pick which quote you want, but Paul made it clear that IF IF IF they would see and hear and understand, AND TURN, then God WOULD HEAL THEM.

So, what we see is an order of events. When the people pay attention so that they can understand, and TURN (or repent), THEN God heals them.

We find the exact same order of events in Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Pay particular attention to the bolded words. The same order as how Paul quoted Isa 6:9,10.

fail. again.

 

[Icedaisey]

rogerg said:
No one can truly look to, or see the cross UNTIL they are born again
FreeGrace2 said:
Then provide support for you claim in the Bible.


This verse doesn't support for rogerg's claim.

The verse is about "seeing the kingdom of God". One must be born again to see it.

However, let's consider the broader context, so we can understand what John was getting at.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

v.3 is a question about what the kingdom of God looks like.
v.5 clarifies what John was getting at. In order to see what the kingdom of God looks like, one must ENTER it.

But, the ONLY WAY one can ENTER into the kingdom of God is to be born again.

John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

What transpired to make it possible for that only way, to enter the kingdom of God and be born again?