Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Oct 14, 2021
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Refine and rephrase:-

The key is to separate the 2 different perspectives: God’s Perspective (in the Mind of God) and Man’s Perspective (in the mind of Man).

1st perspective from the omnipotent Power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth (in the Mind of God) - The Doctrine of Unconditional Election is TRUE in the omnipotent power of God, the Creator of Heavens and Earth. Only the Sovereign God have the omnipotent power to unconditional elected a person without the help of human-it is a gift of God so that no one can boast! (God does not consult us in the affairs of Unconditional Election, God is Sovereign - Let God be God)

2nd perspective from the understanding of man on God’s omnipotence (in the mind of Man) - Since God does not tell us whether the person is unconditional elected by HIM and we cannot know What God Knows in HIS Mind about this person is unconditional elected. Therefore in our human mind, we can only conclude "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is Not True which is the Correct perspective in our human understanding.

But from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God), "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is TRUE. Two different perspectives, one from the omnipotent power of God (in the Mind of God) and one from our human understanding (in the mind of Man) on God’s omnipotence, Both are Correct!

When we mixed and combined Two different perspectives together to understand and explain, and it will result in confusion and argument.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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What can make someone change from non-believing to believing? Can someone make themselves believe
something they just don't believe in?
Please look at what Scripture states concerning those who do not believe:


John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The words "believeth not" are translated from the Greek word apeitheō which means "not to allow one's self to be persuaded, to refuse or withhold belief". Those who "believeth not" actively resist God's Word.


From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

ἀπειθέω, -ῶ; imperfect ἠπείθουν; 1 aorist ἠπείθησα; to be ἀπειθής (which see); not to allow oneself to be persuaded; not to comply with;
a. to refuse or withhold belief (in Christ, in the gospel; opposed to πιστεύω): τῷ υἱῷ, John 3:36; τῷ λόγῳ, 1 Peter 2:8; 1 Peter 3:1; absolutely of those who reject the gospel, [R. V. to be disobedient; cf. b.]: Acts 14:2; Acts 17:5 [Rec.]; Acts 19:9; Romans 15:31; 1 Peter 2:7 (T Tr WH ἀπιστοῦσιν).
b. to refuse belief and obedience: with the dative of thing or of person, Romans 2:8 (τῇ ἀληθείᾳ); Rom 11:30f (τῷ θεῷ); 1 Peter 4:17; absolutely, Romans 10:21 (Isaiah 65:2); Hebrews 3:18; Hebrews 11:31; 1 Peter 3:20. (In the Sept. a common equivalent to מָרָה, סָרַר; in Greek writings often from Aeschylus Ag. 1049 down; in Homer neuter plural ἀπιθεῖν.)


In other words, God does not withhold what is needed from those who "believeth not". Those who "believeth not" actively resist.

The same truth concerning this issue is stated in Romans 1:18:

Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means "to suppress, restrain". Again, it is men/women who suppress, restrain the truth.

God does not withhold from the unbeliever. In fact Romans 1:19 says that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. The unbeliever takes what God reveals and suppresses/restrains the truth.





rogerg said:
What I'm saying is only this: Christ alone is Savior -- He must be the one who saves.
Everyone agrees on this point, rogerg. This is a non-issue.




rogerg said:
Anything pertaining to salvation that does not come to us (solely) as a gift, is a work because we would have to do
something to acquire it - which is impossible. There is no other alternative.
Yes, there is ... there is the truth of God's Word. And God tells us unequivocally that faith is not works.

So for you to continue to insist that faith is somehow a "work" on the part of mankind, when God specifically tells us that faith is not works, you are in error and it may be time to go back to Scripture and read it with an intent to understand what God means when He tells us faith is not works.

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And please note, the word "his" (in "his faith" - vs 5) appears in the text which means it is his/her faith ... the faith of the one who believes.

Faith is not works.


 

peldom10

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May 22, 2020
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Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

WOW...no way.

A person sitting and watching tv his whole life without repentance, baptism and living a righteous life, including doing God's work.......will experience spiritual death.
 
Aug 20, 2021
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WOW...no way.

A person sitting and watching tv his whole life without repentance, baptism and living a righteous life, including doing God's work.......will experience spiritual death.
Be suspect of those that are such, there are likely bearers of false witness.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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WOW...no way.

A person sitting and watching tv his whole life without repentance, baptism and living a righteous life, including doing God's work.......will experience spiritual death.
I dont know what you talking about and how it has any relevance to unconditional election.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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A person sitting and watching tv his whole life without repentance, baptism and living a righteous life, including doing God's work.......will experience spiritual death.
But, if this slug had ever believed in Christ for salvation, he possesses eternal life and shall never perish, according to Jesus in John 10:28.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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In other words, God does not withhold what is needed from those who "believeth not". Those who "believeth not" actively resist.
What do you then think these verses mean?

[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

God does not withhold from the unbeliever. In fact Romans 1:19 says that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. The unbeliever takes what God reveals and suppresses/restrains the truth.
What "may" (that which is possible be known), and that which "is knowable", are two very different things. See the following:

[Luk 10:23 KJV]
23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

[Luk 10:23 KJV]
reneweddaybyday said:
So for you to continue to insist that faith is somehow a "work" on the part of mankind, when God specifically tells us that faith is not works, you are in error and it may be time to go back to Scripture and read it with an intent to understand what God means when He tells us faith is not works.

Yes, I continue and will continue because that is what the Bible teaches. The faith of salvation had to have works within it for it to be acceptable to the Father.

The faith which brings salvation is the faith OF Christ and has works central to it, but, they are Christ's works.
A faith IN Christ does NOT bring salvation but is a gift from/by the faith OF Christ. However, both the faith OF Christ and faith IN Christ are gifts freely given to His elect by God, and only to His elect

Let me explain this again. I'll start with this verse:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, it seems there are two faiths: 1) the faith OF Christ and. 2 the faith that someone who is saved receives after becoming
born-again, or, said another way, faith 'IN' Christ. Now, the those born-again, will be led inexorably by God to a faith 'IN' Christ Jesus.
But both are the work of God. If it were not for the faith "Of" Christ, then faith "IN" Christ would not be possible.
Observe:

[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
If faith is without works (Christ's works), it is a dead faith. Further:

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The "man" it the above verses is Christ.

So in verse 18, we are informed that should someone boast they have become saved due to their own faith; that is, a faith generated somehow through/by themselves, then, it also must have have produced works equivalent to the works of Christ.
So, If you believe that you have given to yourself faith, then you also had to have produce the works of Christ to accompany it, and have also added righteousness to that faith.

In verses 2:12 - 13, we are informed that for those saved, regardless of their current spiritual understanding or beliefs, that
God will inexorably lead them to a faith in Christ.

[Phl 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

And please note, the word "his" (in "his faith" - vs 5) appears in the text which means it is his/her faith ... the faith of the one who believes.

Faith is not works.
Nope, that faith is definitely Christ's faith and not of "his/her"

I explained the faith is not a work point previously. However, I think the crux of your misunderstanding
is with how you perceive faith to be produced and received. For both cases, I say it is solely through/by God and
is nothing that we could bring to fruition of ourselves.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Nope. I have the Greek word definition on my side.

Here is the actual scripture that’s shows the different renderings for the biblical word believe, so no, you actual don’t have any Greek on “your side”.


  • He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


  • He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


Only those who believe and therefore obey Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9 NKJV




Your “doctrine” is not from the scriptures, nor from God.







JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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[1Pe 21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Mat 13:11 KJV] 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes believe and obey Jesus Christ as Lord.



Those Christians who live in disobedience will not receive eternal salvation.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



Those who believe are those who obey; who are led by the Spirit and not the flesh.



But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7





  • Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them






JPT
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. I have the Greek word definition on my side.
Here is the actual scripture that’s shows the different renderings for the biblical word believe, so no, you actual don’t have any Greek on “your side”.
We'll see.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


Only those who believe and therefore obey Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation.
Thanks for proving my point. The word in Jn 3:36 isn't "pisteuo" but apeitho. And it means to "disbelieve".

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9 NKJV
OK, please provide a list of what specific commands one must obey in order to be saved.

Your “doctrine” is not from the scriptures, nor from God.[/QUOTE
I am awaiting your list.

When "obedience" is mentioned in association with salvation, it is obvious to those with discernment that "obeying the gospel" is to believe the gospel.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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Yes believe and obey Jesus Christ as Lord.
Apparently you are not aware that this is about lifestyle, so your "theology" is salvation by lifestyle. That's what the Pharisees thought as well.

And that's what the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought, too. In fact, they were basing entrance into the kingdom on what THEY DID. There was no mention of trust in what Christ did for them.

Those Christians who live in disobedience will not receive eternal salvation.
Apparently you don't believe what Jesus taught then. In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your version is that regardless of being given eternal life, lifestyle trumps grace and what Jesus said, and disobedient recipients of eternal life shall perish.

in direct conflict with what Jesus said.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Those who believe are those who obey; who are led by the Spirit and not the flesh.
Oedience is an evidence of being saved. Obedience flows out of one's salvation.

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
I would invite you to carefully read the text, esp v.5. Paul is saying that such believers will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. Did you miss it?

What Paul didn't write is that such a believer won't enter the kingdom. Paul is discussing the consequences of disobedience for the believer. They will lose out on eternal reward. The inheritance that is earned.

In Rom 8:17 there are 2 different inheritances.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So, the red words refer to our inheritance as God's children. It is unconditional and means His children WILL live with God forever.

However, the blue words refer to the conditional inheritance that is earned. IF IF IF indeed we share in His sufferings, ONLY THEN will we "share in His glory".

We find the same principle in 2 Tim 2:12 -
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

The red words refer to our earned inheritance. The blue words refer to what happens if we don't endure, or deny Him. Jesus will deny us the privilege of reigning with Him.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them
This is a warning to believers about God's painful discipline. Heb 12:11

And warning obedient believers to stay away from them.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Yes believe and obey Jesus Christ as Lord.
Left to ourselves no one can, or will, desire to "obey Him", nor could be successful at it because they can't know the truth. they are unable to understand what it means. Does the below seen to you to be the obeying you speak of, since from birth everyone has those same attributes? These verses inform there are "none that understandesth", "none that seek after God", "none who doeth good, no not one", "and the way of peace they have not known", there is "no fear of God before their eyes". If guilty, which we all were/are, how would someone (anyone) even desire to obey Him? I posted previously what the Bible informs regarding true obedience, and it is not as you suggest, neither could it be. It just simply not within the power man, through their own means, to do so. See 1 John 5:20 below

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
illogical. The verse actually informs that it is "by Him" that one believes, not of, nor by, themselves. So you can't get to your conclusion from that verse (nor any of the other verses). The "him" is God

Your “doctrine” is not from the scriptures, nor from God.
Nope -I say that it is your doctrine that is in error, anti-biblical, and anti-Christ. I wish dialog could change that but it can't. It can only be by the Holy Sprit. You, whether realizing it or not, by your doctrine, take the title of Savior away from Christ and place it upon the individual. Any conclusion that attempts to do that is neither scriptural nor of God

Try to understand this:

[1Jo 5:20 KJV]
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[Jhn 17:2-3 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Yes believe and obey Jesus Christ as Lord.
Left to ourselves no one can, or will, desire to "obey Him", nor could be successful at it because they can't know the truth. they are unable to understand what it means. Does the below seen to you to be the obeying you speak of, since from birth everyone has those same attributes? These verses inform there are "none that understandesth", "none that seek after God", "none who doeth good, no not one", "and the way of peace they have not known", there is "no fear of God before their eyes". If guilty, which we all were/are, how would someone (anyone) even desire to obey Him? I posted previously what the Bible informs regarding true obedience, and it is not as you suggest, neither could it be. It just simply not within the power man, through their own means, to do so. See 1 John 5:20 below

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
illogical. The verse actually informs that it is "by Him" that one believes, not of, nor by, themselves. So you can't get to your conclusion from that verse (nor any of the other verses). The "him" is God

Your “doctrine” is not from the scriptures, nor from God.
Nope -I say that it is your doctrine that is in error, anti-biblical, and anti-Christ. I wish dialog could change that but it can't. It can only be by the Holy Sprit. You, whether realizing it or not, by your doctrine, take the title of Savior away from Christ and place it upon the individual. Any conclusion that attempts to do that is neither scriptural nor of God

Try to understand this:

[1Jo 5:20 KJV]
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[Jhn 17:2-3 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Left to ourselves no one can, or will, desire to "obey Him", nor could be successful at it because they can't know the truth. they are unable to understand what it means. Does the below seen to you to be the obeying you speak of, since from birth everyone has those same attributes? These verses inform there are "none that understandesth", "none that seek after God", "none who doeth good, no not one", "and the way of peace they have not known", there is "no fear of God before their eyes". If guilty, which we all were/are, how would someone (anyone) even desire to obey Him? I posted previously what the Bible informs regarding true obedience, and it is not as you suggest, neither could it be. It just simply not within the power man, through their own means, to do so. See 1 John 5:20 below

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
This passage of Scripture is not a list that applies to all unbelievers, as many presume. In fact, v.10-11 are quotes from Psa 14:1-3. The subject are atheists. They don't seek after God, obviuosly.

in fact, all these verses are from 6 OT quotes that Paul used to demonstrate the DIFFERENT WAYS that people are not righteous.
 

rogerg

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**** Sorry -accidently posted this uncompleted post but didn't realize until now. Please ignore the first post. reference the second, later post, for any replies

Left to ourselves no one can, or will, desire to "obey Him", nor could be successful at it because they can't know the truth. they are unable to understand what it means. Does the below seen to you to be the obeying you speak of, since from birth everyone has those same attributes? These verses inform there are "none that understandesth", "none that seek after God", "none who doeth good, no not one", "and the way of peace they have not known", there is "no fear of God before their eyes". If guilty, which we all were/are, how would someone (anyone) even desire to obey Him? I posted previously what the Bible informs regarding true obedience, and it is not as you suggest, neither could it be. It just simply not within the power man, through their own means, to do so. See 1 John 5:20 below

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.



illogical. The verse actually informs that it is "by Him" that one believes, not of, nor by, themselves. So you can't get to your conclusion from that verse (nor any of the other verses). The "him" is God



Nope -I say that it is your doctrine that is in error, anti-biblical, and anti-Christ. I wish dialog could change that but it can't. It can only be by the Holy Sprit. You, whether realizing it or not, by your doctrine, take the title of Savior away from Christ and place it upon the individual. Any conclusion that attempts to do that is neither scriptural nor of God

Try to understand this:

[1Jo 5:20 KJV]
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[Jhn 17:2-3 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 
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What do you then think these verses mean?

[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
rogerg asked:

"What can make someone change from non-believing to believing? Can someone make themselves believe
something they just don't believe in?"

and I provided Scripture (John 3:36) which clearly indicates those who believeth not [Greek apeitheō] refuse to believe or withhold belief.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [Greek apeitheō] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

ἀπειθέω, -ῶ; imperfect ἠπείθουν; 1 aorist ἠπείθησα; to be ἀπειθής (which see); not to allow oneself to be persuaded; not to comply with;
a. to refuse or withhold belief (in Christ, in the gospel; opposed to πιστεύω): τῷ υἱῷ, John 3:36; τῷ λόγῳ, 1 Peter 2:8; 1 Peter 3:1; absolutely of those who reject the gospel, [R. V. to be disobedient; cf. b.]: Acts 14:2; Acts 17:5 [Rec.]; Acts 19:9; Romans 15:31; 1 Peter 2:7 (T Tr WH ἀπιστοῦσιν).
b. to refuse belief and obedience: with the dative of thing or of person, Romans 2:8 (τῇ ἀληθείᾳ); Rom 11:30f (τῷ θεῷ); 1 Peter 4:17; absolutely, Romans 10:21 (Isaiah 65:2); Hebrews 3:18; Hebrews 11:31; 1 Peter 3:20. (In the Sept. a common equivalent to מָרָה, סָרַר; in Greek writings often from Aeschylus Ag. 1049 down; in Homer neuter plural ἀπιθεῖν.)


As far as John 6:37? Read the verses just before vs 37:

John 6:

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

They saw and heard and still did not believe.

According to your understanding, the reason some do not believe is that God withholds from them that which is needed to believe.

According to my understanding, God has provided all that is needed to believe, and those who do not believe actively resist God.


As far as John 6:44? Again, read the verse in context:

John 6:

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

In verse 45 we are told they shall be all taught of God ... every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Some hear and go no further ... they hear, but do not learn.
Those who hear and go further to learn of the Father ... those are the ones who come to the Son.

There were some who heard what Jesus spoke, believed what Jesus said was a hard saying (vs 60) and turned from Jesus (vs 66).

Those who did not turn from Jesus were the ones who came to the Son.

The ones who did not come to the Son heard the Word of the Lord and actively refused / withheld belief in Christ. Nothing was withheld from them by God ... they turned from God.




rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
God does not withhold from the unbeliever. In fact Romans 1:19 says that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. The unbeliever takes what God reveals and suppresses/restrains the truth.
What "may" (that which is possible be known), and that which "is knowable", are two very different things.
Agree that what "may" (that which is possible be known), and that which "is knowable" are two very different things. So let's find out what the words may be known as used in Rom 1:19 mean.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words may be known are translated from the Greek word gnóstos which means

gnōstós (an adjective derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know experientially") – experientially known, i.e. through first-hand, personal experience. See 1097 (ginōskō).


Now read Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

God's wrath is revealed from heaven against those who "experientially know through first-hand, personal experience" yet suppress that truth in unrighteousness.

Sad that God reaches down to mankind, reveals Himself, and then is rejected by some. :cry:

Clearly the verses you provided from Luke 10 do not apply to what is written in Romans 1:19 because Romans 1:19 specifically states that these people "experientially know" what God has revealed.



 
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rogerg said:
A faith IN Christ does NOT bring salvation but is a gift from/by the faith OF Christ. However, both the faith OF Christ and faith IN Christ are gifts freely given to His elect by God, and only to His elect

Let me explain this again
I understand your rendering and I disagree.

One reason I disagree is because of what is written in Romans 1:18-20

Romans 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Under your rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire have an excuse because God withheld from them that which was needed in order for them to come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Under your rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire were more obedient to God than the so-called "elect" because the "elect" continue to sin, continue to turn from God and from what is written in God's Word and follow their own selfish desires and continue to follow the things of the world.

Under my rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire have no excuse because God provided all that is needed in order for them to come to faith. However, they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness even though God revealed Himself to them. They rejected God.

Under my rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire were disobedient to God throughout the whole of their lifetime and the born again one, while never perfect in this lifetime, does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reveals Himself and, thereafter, follows what is written in Scripture (i.e. confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9).




rogerg said:
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, it seems there are two faiths: 1) the faith OF Christ and. 2 the faith that someone who is saved receives after becoming
born-again, or, said another way, faith 'IN' Christ. Now, the those born-again, will be led inexorably by God to a faith 'IN' Christ Jesus.
We have already gone through Galatians 2:16.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The word "of" is not in the text ... the word "in" is in the text.




rogerg said:
So, it seems there are two faiths: 1) the faith OF Christ and. 2 the faith that someone who is saved receives after becoming
born-again, or, said another way, faith 'IN' Christ.
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.





rogerg said:
[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
If faith is without works (Christ's works), it is a dead faith. Further:

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The "man" it the above verses is Christ.
Nope. If that were true, you are calling the Lord Jesus Christ a vain man :rolleyes:

Additionally, in Eph 2:10 we are told that we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained thatwe should walk in them.

The Eph 2:10 "good works" we are to "walk in" are what is being discussed in James 2.




rogerg said:
If you believe that you have given to yourself faith
I never said I "have given to [myself] faith".

I have told you that when God created, formed, made Adam, faith was inherent within Adam ... just as God provided intellect, emotions, senses, etc., etc. Faith is from God.

Please do not misrepresent what I have told you.

You are the one who says that I "believe that [ I ] have given to [ myself ] faith". That you continue to misstate what I have told you is error on your part.




rogerg said:
However, I think the crux of your misunderstanding
is with how you perceive faith to be produced and received. For both cases, I say it is solely through/by God and
is nothing that we could bring to fruition of ourselves.
Just because you say I "believe that [ I ] have given to [ myself ] faith", this does not equal my having said what you claim.

When I say God created, formed, made mankind and inherent within mankind God placed faith, that is what I mean.

When you change what I believe to I "give to myself faith" it's like you saying I claim "I gave myself an eye".

I no more gave myself faith than I gave myself an eye. God gave eyes to mankind. God gave intellect to mankind. God gave faith to mankind. Period.


Please read with comprehension and quit misrepresenting what I have stated. Thank you.



 

rogerg

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and I provided Scripture (John 3:36) which clearly indicates those who believeth not [Greek apeitheō] refuse to believe or withhold belief.
The question you answered isn't a reply to the question I asked, nor was it even close

6 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

They saw and heard and still did not believe.

According to your understanding, the reason some do not believe is that God withholds from them that which is needed to believe.

According to my understanding, God has provided all that is needed to believe, and those who do not believe actively resist God.
According to your own understanding they " believe not", so then something MUST have been lacking on their part.

What they hadn't been given is the Holy Spirit, and by that, are they unable to obtain or come to true faith-- until such time as they become born again they will be without the Holy Spirit.
Besides-- and I want to make this abundantly clear and not let it get lost-- that an individua is NOT saved by their faith. First-and-foremost, those who become saved, become saved, only because God has CHOSEN them FOR salvation and for no other reason. From that, will come forth unto them the attributes of a true Christian. Only those individuals can or will be saved.

[Rom 1:20 KJV]
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God's wrath is revealed from heaven against those who "experientially

know through first-hand, personal experience" yet suppress that truth in unrighteousness.
That doesn't make sense. See how and why someone becomes saved above.

Sad that God reaches down to mankind, reveals Himself, and then is rejected by some
Being based upon their own ability, no one can undertand.

[Jhn 6:63-66 KJV]
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

As far as John 6:37? Read the verses just before vs 37:
How do the verses before 37 change 37? Answer: they do not, in fact they support it?

Sad that God reaches down to mankind, reveals Himself, and then is rejected by some
So then, are you saying you don't believe the Savior forgives to the uttermost? And you are saying that we must accomplish of ourselves (at least) the first part of the salvation process?

[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Notice the "that come to God by Him" - the "them" must then be of those who are explicitly chosen by God to that end
 
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Apparently you are not aware that this is about lifestyle, so your "theology" is salvation by lifestyle. That's what the Pharisees thought as well.

And that's what the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought, too. In fact, they were basing entrance into the kingdom on what THEY DID. There was no mention of trust in what Christ did for them.


Apparently you don't believe what Jesus taught then. In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your version is that regardless of being given eternal life, lifestyle trumps grace and what Jesus said, and disobedient recipients of eternal life shall perish.

in direct conflict with what Jesus said.


Oedience is an evidence of being saved. Obedience flows out of one's salvation.


I would invite you to carefully read the text, esp v.5. Paul is saying that such believers will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. Did you miss it?

What Paul didn't write is that such a believer won't enter the kingdom. Paul is discussing the consequences of disobedience for the believer. They will lose out on eternal reward. The inheritance that is earned.

In Rom 8:17 there are 2 different inheritances.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So, the red words refer to our inheritance as God's children. It is unconditional and means His children WILL live with God forever.

However, the blue words refer to the conditional inheritance that is earned. IF IF IF indeed we share in His sufferings, ONLY THEN will we "share in His glory".

We find the same principle in 2 Tim 2:12 -
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

The red words refer to our earned inheritance. The blue words refer to what happens if we don't endure, or deny Him. Jesus will deny us the privilege of reigning with Him.


This is a warning to believers about God's painful discipline. Heb 12:11

And warning obedient believers to stay away from them.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ.



The scriptures teach us the truth, whereas your “doctrine”, leads people away from Christ and His teachings into a life of disobedience and sin.



The Lord warned us to remain “in Him. Those who do not remain “in Christ” are cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4







JPT
 

FreeGrace2

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And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

Eternal salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ.
OK, now please explain very clearly what it means to "0bey Jesus Christ" that will result in salvation.

The Bible is full of commands. So please point out the specific commands that are necessary for salvation. Thanks.

The scriptures teach us the truth, whereas your “doctrine”, leads people away from Christ and His teachings into a life of disobedience and sin.
Speaking for myself, I ALWAYS point out the very serious consequences for believers who get into a life of disobedience/sin. In fact, God's discipline is painful according to Heb 12:11. So no one gets away with anything.

1 Cor 5:5 - Paul turns the incestuous man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. That's a painful death, if you weren't sure.

1 Tim 1;19,20 - Paul turns Hymeneaus and Alexander over to Satan "to be taught not to blaspheme". Does that sound like a picnic to you?

The Lord warned us to remain “in Him. Those who do not remain “in Christ” are cast into the fire and burned.
Let's not make the huge mistake of taking a metaphor and trying to create a doctrine out of it.

Jesus was teaching about fellowship, which is what "remaining in Him" means. It CANNOT mean that we are responsible to being IN Him because Eph 1:13,14 teach that the believer is sealed IN Him with the Holy Spirit, who will "be with us forever" according to Jesus.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Read v.1-6 and tell me what the subject is about.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Right. Obedience is how to remain in fellowship with the Lord, and the ONLY WAY to be fruitful.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
Right. Such believers are NOT in fellowship and CANNOT bear fruit.