Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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rogerg

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and I provided Scripture (John 3:36) which clearly indicates those who believeth not [Greek apeitheō] refuse to believe or withhold belief.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not [Greek apeitheō] the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
My point was directed to WHY people don't, won't, or can't believe. You did not address that aspect in your reply but it is the critical point of the discussion. You should understand that believing, along with all other attributes that Christians possess are gifts originating from the faith of Christ, given freely to His elect. Outside of Christ and of ourselves, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to come to true faith in Christ. True faith is not acquired as a result of anyone's intellectual abilities - it is a gift. Please observe:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace and apostleship are GIVEN so that their recipients become obedient to the faith - this is the obedience that God has in view but
not that which makes someone saved, rather, after salvation.

One reason I disagree is because of what is written in Romans 1:18-20

Romans 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Again, the question remains: WHY? Why are our hearts darkened? Why, when we know God, do we glorify Him not as God? How is it that with all of the information God has provided to us of Himself, that we still refuse to honor Him as God? Why? The answer is because it is NOT the mind of the natural man that gives true faith or salvation (nor any of the other attributes of a Christian).. It can come only as a gift given to certain specific individuals by God.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The word "of" is not in the text ... the word "in" is in the text.
But the word "in" is not in that part of the text either. there can be lots of words used in one part of a verse that are not
appropriate to another part of it. If the texts says "faith Christ" (direct rendering) the most reasonable interpretation would be that
it means Christ's faith, and as you say, the text does have "in" where God wanted "in". But most importantly,
without the faith OF Christ, first being present, there would be nothing we could have IN. Are you seriously disputing that Christ had in fact been perfectly faithful to the Father in order to bring forth salvation?


Under my rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire have no excuse because God provided all that is needed in order for them to come to faith. However, they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness even though God revealed Himself to them. They rejected God.

Under my rendering, those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire were disobedient to God throughout the whole of their lifetime and the born again one, while never perfect in this lifetime, does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reveals Himself and, thereafter, follows what is written in Scripture (i.e. confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9).
They will find themselves in the lake of fire because of what Adam and Eve did in making everyone sinners. Adam brought in the law; the law measures/assesses sin; sin brings forth judgment unto condemnation

[Rom 5:12 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


God is under no obligation to save everyone or anyone. Those who are not saved do not want God's salvation on the basis God set's forth until born again, but rather by their own works or contribution - God owes them nothing. He gives to them exactly their desire: to try to make themselves righteous before God by their work.
Those who are saved, are saved, only because of God's mercy and grace, but, He owes nothing to anyone.

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
There is only one faith given but only regarding the faith of the Elect. That faith is not Christ's faith. Christ faithfulness was to the Father and a different faith than man is given - the faith of the elect. For those saved, their faith is in Christ not in themselves. So, two faiths

Nope. If that were true, you are calling the Lord Jesus Christ a vain man :rolleyes:
Additionally, in Eph 2:10 we are told that we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained thatwe should walk in them.[/QUOTE]

Think about it- James had to have Christ in view - there is no question about it. Who else but Christ could provide us a perfect objective standard and example by which to measure and understand faith, works and righteousness. Only Christ could do that because He actually demonstrated it. For it to have been intended to depict a generic person, someone besides Christ, would make it an entirely illogical, worthless, and meaningless statement, because without setting a standard, it would tell us absolutely nothing. By it, James is warning us that regarding faith and salvation, that unless we can produce what Christ produced (which we cannot) , we should trust nothing in ourselves.

That you said "that would be calling the Lord Jesus Christ a vain main", doesn't make sense. Christ was both man AND God. He is the kinsman redeemer. You're not aware of this?

Further, regarding Eph 2:10, we are CREATED unto good works but that doesn't mean to achieve our own salvation or contribute to it
in any way. It is to work the works of a true believer to communicate the Gospel AFTER becoming saved. Notice that it says "created unto: having been created as a new spiritual man, not as an earthly man. By the way, it was those who were of the Elect/born again that Paul was addressing. It wasn't intended to apply to all of mankind.

When I say God created, formed, made mankind and inherent within mankind God placed faith, that is what I mean
Again, think about the implications of what you're saying. If you mean that God gave faith in Christ to all mankind, then by that, they MUST be saved, and by definition, if saved, one cannot be placed into jeopardy of losing that salvation, or, salvation isn't salvation, or faith isn't faith.

Please post where in the Bible you find verses that support your doctrine that everyone is born with faith in Christ? To see actually this doctrine in the Bible would be critical.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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My point was directed to WHY people don't, won't, or can't believe. You did not address that aspect in your reply but it is the critical point of the discussion.
It's basically a bogus question. Only Calvinists perseverate over such a question.

You should understand that believing, along with all other attributes that Christians possess are gifts originating from the faith of Christ
No, you should understand that believing is NEVER described as a gift from God. In fact, the Bible tells us where belief comes from; man's heart. Rom 10:10.

Faith comes from hearing the gospel, and the gospel comes from the Word of Christ.

God created humanity with a conscience (Rom 2:14,15) with which to understand right from wrong, so man instinctively knows that.

Plus, God has revealed Himself and His divine attributes so that NO ONE has an excuse for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.

Finally, God placed everyone in humanity WHEN and WHERE He did in order for them to seek Him. Acts 17:26,27.

So, these 3 facts from Scripture are enough to understand where belief comes from.

Outside of Christ and of ourselves, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to come to true faith in Christ.
The 3 things I just posted eliminate any theory of impossibility for man to come to Christ.

In fact, because of these 3 things, man has NO EXCUSE for not coming to faith in Christ.

True faith is not acquired as a result of anyone's intellectual abilities - it is a gift.
Yes, faith as a noun is a gift. But the action (verb) of believing comes from the heart.

They will find themselves in the lake of fire because of what Adam and Eve did in making everyone sinners.
Wrong! They will find themselves in the lake of fire because they refused the gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15. It was their own choice.

God is under no obligation to save everyone or anyone.
Do you believe that God has obligated Himself?
 

rogerg

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And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ.
Nope. Grace and apostleship must first be received for/before anyone can be obedient (to the faith)

Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
 
Mar 23, 2016
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My point was directed to WHY people don't, won't, or can't believe. You did not address that aspect in your reply but it is the critical point of the discussion.
I did address your issue. People don't believe because they refuse to believe or they withhold belief.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The words "believeth not" are translated from the Greek word apeitheō which means "not to allow one's self to be persuaded, to refuse or withhold belief". Those who "believeth not" actively resist God's Word.




rogerg said:
You should understand that believing, along with all other attributes that Christians possess are gifts originating from the faith of Christ, given freely to His elect. Outside of Christ and of ourselves, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to come to true faith in Christ. True faith is not acquired as a result of anyone's intellectual abilities
As you know, I believe God has given faith to all mankind ... just as He gave intellect, emotions, senses, etc., etc.

faith is the source of believing.

intellect is the source of thinking.

The faith inherent within each person results in believing. That is why the question "do you have faith" is not the issue.

The issue is "in what (or better, in WHOM) do you have faith".

We can adamantly believe a lie and refuse to believe or withhold belief in the truth.





rogerg said:
Please observe:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace and apostleship are GIVEN so that their recipients become obedient to the faith - this is the obedience that God has in view but
not that which makes someone saved, rather, after salvation.
Please observe that you have misconstrued the verse.

Paul received grace and apostleship in order to fulfill the great commission which the Lord Jesus Christ gave to His apostles ... And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:15-16).


Please read Romans 1:5 in other versions:

ESV:
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations

ISV:
Through him we received grace and a commission as an apostle to bring about faithful obedience among all the gentiles for the sake of his name.

NASB:
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles in behalf of His name

NIV:
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

NLT:
Through Christ, God has given us the privilege and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name.




rogerg said:
Again, the question remains: WHY? Why are our hearts darkened? Why, when we know God, do we glorify Him not as God? How is it that with all of the information God has provided to us of Himself, that we still refuse to honor Him as God? Why? The answer is because it is NOT the mind of the natural man that gives true faith or salvation (nor any of the other attributes of a Christian)
Let's let God tell us why the foolish heart becomes darkened:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1) they knew God yet they did not glorify Him as God;

2) they were not thankful;

3) they became vain (empty) in their imaginations;

Those actions caused their hearts to become darkened.




rogerg said:
But the word "in" is not in that part of the text either. there can be lots of words used in one part of a verse that are not
appropriate to another part of it. If the texts says "faith Christ" (direct rendering) the most reasonable interpretation would be that
it means Christ's faith, and as you say, the text does have "in" where God wanted "in". But most importantly,
without the faith OF Christ, first being present, there would be nothing we could have IN.
Again, you know I believe God included faith within Adam when God created, formed, made Adam and that all descendants of Adam have faith. You know that is what I believe because I have told you many times.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

None of the red words appear in the text. If we read the verse without the added words, the verse reads as follows:

Knowing that man is not justified by works law but by faith Jesus Christ even we believed in Jesus Christ that justified by faith Christ and not by works law for by works law shall no flesh justified.

The verse clearly states that those who believe in Jesus Christ are justified by faith ... not by works.

I will leave to God to reveal to you that you have faith to believe in Christ.




rogerg said:
Are you seriously disputing that Christ had in fact been perfectly faithful to the Father in order to bring forth salvation?
This is a non issue and I implore you to quit using fallacy in your discussion. Thank you.




rogerg said:
They will find themselves in the lake of fire because of what Adam and Eve did in making everyone sinners.
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.




rogerg said:
Adam brought in the law
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned




rogerg said:
the law measures/assesses sin;
the law is a tutor to bring mankind to Christ because mankind is justified by faith (not law) ... Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.




rogerg said:
sin brings forth judgment unto condemnation
James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.




rogerg said:
God is under no obligation to save everyone or anyone. Those who are not saved do not want God's salvation on the basis God set's forth until born again, but rather by their own works or contribution - God owes them nothing. He gives to them exactly their desire: to try to make themselves righteous before God by their work.
Those who are saved, are saved, only because of God's mercy and grace, but, He owes nothing to anyone.
You and I are in agreement concerning this issue.



 
Mar 23, 2016
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There is only one faith given but only regarding the faith of the Elect. That faith is not Christ's faith. Christ faithfulness was to the Father and a different faith than man is given - the faith of the elect. For those saved, their faith is in Christ not in themselves. So, two faiths
You and I are not in agreement concerning this issue. There is one faith.

Ephesians 4:3-6 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




rogerg said:
Think about it- James had to have Christ in view - there is no question about it.
You drew attention to James 2:20, 26, 18 in your Post #1,647. Rather than single out verses, read the verses in the context wherein they sit:

James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What is the profit if one who calls him/herself a "believer" or one who says he or she "has faith" and he or she sees someone in need, yet withholds that which is needed? There is no profit. There is no outward "work" in the person who says they have faith yet does nothing to help those in need. Just because a person says he/she is a believer does not mean he/she is truly born again.

On the other hand, the one who calls him/herself a "believer" and truly is a born again one, that person would reach out and help those in need.

We see the same truth taught by the Lord Jesus Christ when He gave the example of the good samaritan after the lawyer asked who is my neighbor (Luke 10:29).

Read the whole context in Luke 10:25-37. The priest and the levite (those who believe themselves to be "elect") cross to the other side of the street and do not help those in need. The samaritan (who the priests and levites (i.e. "elect") look down on) is the one who goes above and beyond in helping those in need.




rogerg said:
Christ was both man AND God. He is the kinsman redeemer. You're not aware of this?
more of your fallacious nonsense. Please stop with the fallacy. It does not add to the dialogue and your purpose in using fallacy is to incite ... which is not productive. Again, please stop.




rogerg said:
Further, regarding Eph 2:10, we are CREATED unto good works but that doesn't mean to achieve our own salvation or contribute to it
in any way.
Stop with the allegation that I have indicated that any born again one "achieve[ s ] our own salvation or contribute[ s ] to it". We all agree that salvation is by grace ... not of works lest any man should boast.

Also note that Ephesians 2:10 states we are CREATED IN Christ Jesus unto good works ... so of course this is speaking of the born again believer. The unbeliever is not IN Christ Jesus.




rogerg said:
Again, think about the implications of what you're saying. If you mean that God gave faith in Christ to all mankind, then by that, they MUST be saved, and by definition, if saved, one cannot be placed into jeopardy of losing that salvation, or, salvation isn't salvation, or faith isn't faith.

Please post where in the Bible you find verses that support your doctrine that everyone is born with faith in Christ? To see actually this doctrine in the Bible would be critical.
That you equate faith in general to faith in Christ is your error.

Faith is to believing as intellect is to thinking.

no one questions that all mankind is able to think.

why does everyone question that all mankind is able to believe?

Intellect is inherent in mankind and it is the intellect which allows mankind to think.

Faith is inherent in mankind and it is faith which allows mankind to believe.

The question is in what (more importantly, WHO) do we place our faith.

If we believe a lie, that results in our detriment.

If we believe truth, that results in our benefit.

Everyone believes something ... whether truth or error.



 
Oct 31, 2015
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Nope. Grace and apostleship must first be received for/before anyone can be obedient (to the faith)

Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Nope.

Obedience to “the faith” is our obedience to our common faith as the household of faith in Christ.


The obedience of faith is the principle by which faith itself operates or functions, otherwise if faith doesn’t have the “work” or action of obedience it is dead.






JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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OK, now please explain very clearly what it means to "0bey Jesus Christ" that will result in salvation.

The Bible is full of commands. So please point out the specific commands that are necessary for salvation. Thanks.

Initial salvation, or being born again, being regenerated, occurs when a per hears and believes and therefore obeys the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.



EXAMPLE:


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38





JPT
 

Nehemiah6

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My point was directed to WHY people don't, won't, or can't believe.
Here's your answer from the one who has final authority -- Christ:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19,20)
 

rogerg

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Initial salvation, or being born again, being regenerated, occurs when a per hears and believes and therefore obeys the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.



EXAMPLE:


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38


JPT
Your assessment regarding being born again is incorrect. Please read the following verse closely

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Okay, let's ponder this. According to the verse, we can clearly see that natural man (unsaved man - in which state we all born in) CANNOT know the things of the Spirit, such as salvation, faith, etc, it just isn't possible. So, to hear, believe, obey spiritually is simply impossible. The only way one can know the things of the Spirit is that one MUST FIRST have been given the Spirit; that is, to have the Spirit is a prerequisite to know the things of the Spirit; to know the things of the Spirit is a prerequisite to spiritual discernment.
Bottom line: of themselves, those unsaved/not born again, cannot know things spiritual. They must be born-again FIRST, from that comes true spiritual wisdom and understanding. Based upon that verse, it is not possible those unsaved can come to faith in Christ
of themselves.

Think you've confused the gift of the Spirit with the fruit of the Spirit.
The gift of the Spirit was manifested in the speaking in tongues. The fruit of the Spirit was manifested by the attributes given to those born-again - these are different things. The fruit of the Spirit doesn't apply to Acts 2:38. Acts 10:45 - 46 clarifies what was.
Repentance, as all attributes associated with salvation (for its recipients), is given by God. It was Christ who repented to the Father on behalf of the elect. This is the repentance that acquired salvation from the Father and is given as a gift to those whom are to be saved. The repentance and baptism of Acts 2:38 were not requests to those present to carry-out carnal orders and carnal actions. They were of God, through Paul, which imbued them with actual spiritual baptism and actual spiritual repentance - for those are the only kind with true spiritual value.

[Act 19:5 KJV]
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They were baptized at the same time they spiritually "heard". That they were able to hear spiritually means the Holy Spirit was within them.


[Act 10:45-46 KJV]
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 5:9 KJV]
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
 

rogerg

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Nope.

Obedience to “the faith” is our obedience to our common faith as the household of faith in Christ.


The obedience of faith is the principle by which faith itself operates or functions, otherwise if faith doesn’t have the “work” or action of obedience it is dead.
Well then nope to your nope.

Please, read this verse closely. After you have, please let me know and we can then discuss - thanks

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

rogerg

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Here's your answer from the one who has final authority -- Christ:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19,20)
Don't disagree with that. Did you think that I do? However, I will say that if Christ is the light (which He is) then those who don't love, follow, believe in Christ, are those "that doeth evil". You agree?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Don't disagree with that. Did you think that I do? However, I will say that if Christ is the light (which He is) then those who don't love, follow, believe in Christ, are those "that doeth evil". You agree?
Absolutely.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Your assessment regarding being born again is incorrect. Please read the following verse closely

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Unbelievers can’t grasp spiritual things.


So what does that prove?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Well then nope to your nope.

Please, read this verse closely. After you have, please let me know and we can then discuss - thanks

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Unbelievers can’t grasp spiritual things.


So what does that prove?
 

rogerg

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Unbelievers can’t grasp spiritual things.


So what does that prove?
That since everyone is born an unbeliever it is impossible to come to, have faith in, Christ in and of ourselves.
We must first be given the Holy Spirit and that can only happen by becoming born again. So true faith, should one have it, was solely as a gift outside of our control or effort. This means since not everyone gets to have faith, that it is specifically given by God to certain people but not everyone. Those to whom God does not give it, can never have it.
 

soberxp

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I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory.
I believe this scripture meaning God could show mercy on anyone.
So the Bible says, you didn't choose me, but I chose you.
My understanding of choice is this:
1:we choose to believe in Jesus, but we don't fully understand God's word.so still God choose us,not we choose God.cuz we are not follow all the rules of word of God.
2:You choose to believe in Jesus,then you may die as Jesus for all mankind,no matter they are unbelievers or evil people or enemies or hostile country.

Either way,we didn't choose God,but God choose us.cuz God loves us first.
 

rogerg

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I believe this scripture meaning God could show mercy on anyone.
So the Bible says, you didn't choose me, but I chose you.
My understanding of choice is this:
1:we choose to believe in Jesus, but we don't fully understand God's word.so still God choose us,not we choose God.cuz we are not follow all the rules of word of God.
2:You choose to believe in Jesus,then you may die as Jesus for all mankind,no matter they are unbelievers or evil people or enemies or hostile country.
Respectfully, I would suggest that your interpretation directly contradicts the verses you posted.
Those who become saved, become saved, solely because they were chosen by God.
We don't "choose" to believe. True belief is a fruit of the Spirit given from becoming born-again, not before

Should we believe that our faith in Christ is a result of our choosing, then we still don't have it
 

soberxp

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May 3, 2018
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Respectfully, I would suggest that your interpretation directly contradicts the verses you posted.
Those who become saved, become saved, solely because they were chosen by God.
We don't "choose" to believe. True belief is a fruit of the Spirit given from becoming born-again, not before

Should we believe that our faith in Christ is a result of our choosing, then we still don't have it
It can be understood that we did not choose God, but God chose us first.
When the gospel began to spread, God chose us first.
He chose us to believe his words unconditionally. Of course, we can't choose him first, but he can choose us first, and then we could choose him,cuz he loves us first.
 

rogerg

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Unbelievers can’t grasp spiritual things.


So what does that prove?
Let me post the verse again

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Look at the "neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned", part. They cannot know things spiritual unless the Spirit of God had first been given to them, which Holy Spirit is not given to all - the Holy Spirit is only given by becoming born-again - God's work. In other words, the only way one can know the spiritual, is if they had already been saved, not to become saved.
As I understand your POV relative to the verse, one would have to already be saved in order to become saved- which obviously, would be illogical