Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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ForestGreenCook

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How about Isaac?
Jacob and Esau were twins that were born of Isaac and Rebekah, and God used Jacob as a representative to make his purpose according to election stand, not of works, but of him who calleth, Romans 9:11.
 

ForestGreenCook

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“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” Romans 9:11–13 (KJV 1900)

What's your point?
God used Jacob, whose name he later changed to be called Israel, as a representative of the elect, showing that his election was not of works, but of him that calleth. Jacob, as Israel, represents God's elect that is comprised of every kindred, and tongue, and people, , and nation, not just the nation of Israel.
 

Dave-L

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Jacob and Esau were twins that were born of Isaac and Rebekah, and God used Jacob as a representative to make his purpose according to election stand, not of works, but of him who calleth, Romans 9:11.
But Paul says the Seed is Christ, not the Physical unbelieving seed. So what's your point?
 

ForestGreenCook

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“And they all sang a new song to the Lamb: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were killed, and with the blood of your death you bought people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You made them to be a kingdom of priests for our God, and they will rule on the earth.”” Revelation 5:9–10 (EXPNT)

10 You made them to be a kingdom -of priests [or and priests; Ex. 19:6] for our God, and they will -rule [reign; other manuscripts have “they reign” (present tense)] on the earth.”

Or it pertains to the New Heavens and earth.
Yes, his elect do reign as kings and priests here on earth in Christ's kingdom that he established in the days of his Apostles. The same kingdom that he will raise up to heaven at the last day. I think you use the KJV version to study from, if so, you probably unintentionally misquoted Rev 5:9, by using "AND WITH THE BLOOD OF YOUR DEATH YOU BOUGHT PEOPLE FOR GOD FROM EVERY TRIBE". instead of the language the KJV uses; "AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY HIS BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED" Reassure me, that you do your studies from the KJV. If not, that could be part of your misunderstanding of what I am trying to explain to you.
 

Dave-L

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Yes, his elect do reign as kings and priests here on earth in Christ's kingdom that he established in the days of his Apostles. The same kingdom that he will raise up to heaven at the last day. I think you use the KJV version to study from, if so, you probably unintentionally misquoted Rev 5:9, by using "AND WITH THE BLOOD OF YOUR DEATH YOU BOUGHT PEOPLE FOR GOD FROM EVERY TRIBE". instead of the language the KJV uses; "AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY HIS BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED" Reassure me, that you do your studies from the KJV. If not, that could be part of your misunderstanding of what I am trying to explain to you.
The Kingdom came when Daniel said it would, in the days of the Roman Empire, proven by Christ's teaching on the kingdom.
 

ForestGreenCook

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But Paul says the Seed is Christ, not the Physical unbelieving seed. So what's your point?
Can you give me the scripture where Paul says that the seed is Christ? I use a KJV study disk in my computer instead of using the book forms of concordances, and if your quotes are from another version than the KJV, my computer program will not recognise the wording.
 

Dave-L

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Can you give me the scripture where Paul says that the seed is Christ? I use a KJV study disk in my computer instead of using the book forms of concordances, and if your quotes are from another version than the KJV, my computer program will not recognise the wording.
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)
 

ForestGreenCook

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I believe Scripture proves Scripture as well, but bringing in other Scripture to harmonize doctrine is not what that means. Scripture must first be understood within its own context and then supported by further Scripture. Otherwise you're doing nothing but introducing your opinion to the matter and reinforcing that opinion. Scriptures only require limited atonement if total inability is believed, and that requires reading everything through a misreading of Romans 5. And that makes it so God's judgment is some kind of clown show mystery rather than the simple truth that God judges and gives to those He deems righteous knowledge of the cross.
Romans 5:18, The free gift (eternal salvation by God's sovereign grace) came upon "all men" unto justification of life. If the "all men" pertains to all mankind, then all mankind would be justified of eternal life. Romans 8:28-30, And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called, according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did God predestinate all mankind to be conformed to the image of his Son? Did God justify all mankind? Did God glorify all mankind?
 

ForestGreenCook

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But Paul says the Seed is Christ, not the Physical unbelieving seed. So what's your point?
Christ is in the lineage of Abraham. This is not saying that Christ is Israel, altho, his is the Savour of Israel. Gen 32:28 does say that Jacob is Israel, and Rom 9:11 says that Jacob is the representative of God's elect, to show that his election might stand.
 

Bbrdrd

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Romans 5:18, The free gift (eternal salvation by God's sovereign grace) came upon "all men" unto justification of life. If the "all men" pertains to all mankind, then all mankind would be justified of eternal life. Romans 8:28-30, And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called, according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did God predestinate all mankind to be conformed to the image of his Son? Did God justify all mankind? Did God glorify all mankind?
First, Romans 5 does pertain to all mankind because it is available to all. As for Romans 8, that takes understanding what Paul's purpose in writing Romans was. Which was to address the divide in Rome between the Jewish church and gentile church. Those who were predestined are the gentiles to become part of God's elect, and it was fore-ordained that it would happen. Romans 8:28-29 is simply saying it was God's plan all along to not limit salvation to the jews. A huge part of the puzzle is that Romans among a lot of reforrmed is read as a theological treatise when it is in fact an occasional letter.
 

Dave-L

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Christ is in the lineage of Abraham. This is not saying that Christ is Israel, altho, his is the Savour of Israel. Gen 32:28 does say that Jacob is Israel, and Rom 9:11 says that Jacob is the representative of God's elect, to show that his election might stand.
Matthew and Paul say he is Israel.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Matthew and Paul say he is Israel.
Respectfully, could you give me the particular scripture in Matthew and Paul's statement that Jesus is Israel? The last scripture you gave me was Gal 3:16 to prove that Jesus is Israel, and I attempted to explain that verse by my interpretation of it. Did my explanation of that verse make any sense to you?
 

garee

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Matthew and Paul say he is Israel.

Christian the new named he named His bride. previously calling her Israel . The maiden name.Christian the married new name taken from the husband, Christ. A befitting name to call the bride as residents of the city not seen the wife

With no other meaning added. "Christian" residents of the city of Christ prepared for her husband and Lord,
Christ the founder of the city .

Could you think of a more appropriate name?
 

Nehemiah6

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Matthew and Paul say he is Israel.
No they do NOT say that Jesus is Israel. That would be like saying that you are your geographical region, or your nation -- TOTALLY ABSURD.
 

Dave-L

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No they do NOT say that Jesus is Israel. That would be like saying that you are your geographical region, or your nation -- TOTALLY ABSURD.
God named Jacob Israel. He is one person God called by His name. Jesus named him.
 

Dave-L

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Respectfully, could you give me the particular scripture in Matthew and Paul's statement that Jesus is Israel? The last scripture you gave me was Gal 3:16 to prove that Jesus is Israel, and I attempted to explain that verse by my interpretation of it. Did my explanation of that verse make any sense to you?
God named Jacob Israel. He is one person God called by His name. Jesus named him.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) compare to; “And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)


“It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:6–8) (NET)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Galatians 3:7 (KJV 1900)

The Hebrews and Israelites were the same people.



Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

So, Abraham’s seed were the Hebrews originally and also known as Israel.



Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s Seed along with those who believe in him



Jesus and believers are Israel.
 

John146

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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)
A physical promise to God’s physical people Israel, not the body of Christ. The body of Christ has no land. This is not our home. The nation of Israel has a promised land.
 

Dave-L

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A physical promise to God’s physical people Israel, not the body of Christ. The body of Christ has no land. This is not our home. The nation of Israel has a promised land.
Jesus is Israel and no only owns Canaan but the whole world as promised to David. Abraham saw Canaan as a symbol of heaven. The broken off unbelievers have no claim to Canaan because all the promises are YES only in Christ.