Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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Dave-L

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So wrong and so mind numbingly wrong it is hard to believe anyone with a reasonable intellect would profess such. Jesus came to seek and save lost souls. He came first to Israel and they rejected Him.

Christ did not abolish circumcision. Christ fulfilled circumcision. The law was fulfilled by Christ not abolished byHim.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Can you show from the NT where this doctrine comes from? How well studied are you concerning it? Can you refute it?
 

Bbrdrd

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Apr 2, 2020
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I attempt to explain all scriptures, because I believe that scripture proves scripture if they all harmonize. I do not understand all scriptures, but I am confident that they should all harmonize. I believe that the scriptures overwhelmingly support limited atonement, and eternal deliverance by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.(Eph 2:8-9) They affirm that God elected a people before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, and God predetermined that they would be adopted as his children by the payment of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

God's elect children are those, in John 6:37, that he says SHALL come to him, and that he would not lose any of them in verse 39. I understand that those that come to him are those that he gave the new birth to in Eph 2, while they were still spiritually dead, as explained in 1 Cor 2:14. Christ died for the world of believers (his elect) and the only ones that SHALL come to him, and they were the only ones that Jesus's Father gave him to die for. Scripture will prove scripture, if you use them in harmony with each other, and not ignore any of them.

The vast majority of society in Jesus's days on earth thought his doctrine was crazy, and it remains the same in this day and time. This is prophecy.
I believe Scripture proves Scripture as well, but bringing in other Scripture to harmonize doctrine is not what that means. Scripture must first be understood within its own context and then supported by further Scripture. Otherwise you're doing nothing but introducing your opinion to the matter and reinforcing that opinion. Scriptures only require limited atonement if total inability is believed, and that requires reading everything through a misreading of Romans 5. And that makes it so God's judgment is some kind of clown show mystery rather than the simple truth that God judges and gives to those He deems righteous knowledge of the cross.
 

John146

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Jesus and the Church are the nation of Israel.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)
That’s God’s physical people Israel. The body of Christ is not called a nation. We are Christians from nations. The generation spoken of are those Jews coming out of the tribulation into the millennium.

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
 

Dave-L

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That’s God’s physical people Israel. The body of Christ is not called a nation. We are Christians from nations. The generation spoken of are those Jews coming out of the tribulation into the millennium.

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)
 

John146

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“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)
Jews, Jews, and more Jews...the nation of Israel. God has chosen the remnant of Israel in the generation of His return to be a Holy nation unto Himself.
 

Dave-L

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Jews, Jews, and more Jews...the nation of Israel. God has chosen the remnant of Israel in the generation of His return to be a Holy nation unto Himself.
“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

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“This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:8)

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
 

John146

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“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

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“This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:8)

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)
You continue to skip around from Scripture specifically for the Jews to Scripture for the body of Christ. It is not a good thing to replace God's physical people with God's spiritual people. Their promises are different.
 

Dave-L

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You continue to skip around from Scripture specifically for the Jews to Scripture for the body of Christ. It is not a good thing to replace God's physical people with God's spiritual people. Their promises are different.
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)
 

John146

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“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)
Notices where the promises of God are...in Him, in Christ. There are other promises specifically to the nation of Israel and it’s concerning land, a physical kingdom and deliverance from their enemies...the restoration of the nation of Israel. That’s physical not spiritual.
 

Dave-L

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Notices where the promises of God are...in Him, in Christ. There are other promises specifically to the nation of Israel and it’s concerning land, a physical kingdom and deliverance from their enemies...the restoration of the nation of Israel. That’s physical not spiritual.
All = all in Christ. The first generation leaving Egypt already forfeited the promises long before any of their children entered Canaan. 40 years later in a journey that takes 11 days on foot.

They think Jesus is in hell right now and they exist as a group only because of their hatred of him. And you think God owes them anything?
 

notuptome

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Can you show from the NT where this doctrine comes from? How well studied are you concerning it? Can you refute it?
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jesus and the Church are the nation of Israel.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)
That is referring to Jacob, whose name is Israel. Jacob is representative of God's elect, Romans 9:11.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jesus and the Church are the nation of Israel.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)
Dave-L, with all due respect, how do you interpret Rev 5:9?
 

ForestGreenCook

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True scripture but a false conclusion on your part.

Jesus is God. Church is His bride. Israel remains Israel and apostate for now. Because of Israel's hardness of heart they have been passed by and the blessing designed for them have been given to the Gentiles. One day Israel will be restored and the Gentiles who are Christ's will rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Just curious, How do you interpret Rev 5:9?
 

ForestGreenCook

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The Church is Israel; Comparison



Called;

1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)

2. Elect (Deut. 7:6, 7; 14:2)

3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)

4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)

5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX) Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)

6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)

7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5, 6)

8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5, 6)

9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5, 6)

10. God's People (Hos. 1:9, 10)

11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)

12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)

13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)

14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)

15. Twelve Patriarchs

16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5; Jer.3:14; Hos.2:19; Jer.6:2; 31:32)



Also Called in the NT;



1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)

2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)

3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)

4. Called (Rom. 1:6, 7; lCor.l:2)

5. Church (Eph. 1:1; Acts 20:28)

6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)

7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)

8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)

9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)

10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)

11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15, 16)

12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)

13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)

14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)

15. Twelve Apostles

16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22, 23; 2Cor.11:2)



The OT Church remained Israel from whom God broke off the unbelievers, and added believing gentiles into their place. Any who accept Christ from among the broken off will be re-attached to Israel.
I agree with you on most all other proof texts that you quote, but you fail to understand that God's elect are found in Jacob. Do you not recognise that God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. Do you not take into consideration, that all Israel is not of Israel Romans 9:6? Isaiah 41:8, But thou, Israel, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. When you interpret the word Israel as being the nation of Israel in every case, you are missing out on some very important truths contained in the scriptures and are not harmonizing the scriptures. Most all of the scriptures that you have quoted in this particular post have reference to Jacob, as Israel, who represents God's elect.
 
Mar 5, 2020
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What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like it, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
Limited Atonement is particular to Calvinism. It's snobbery worked into scriptures that have to be corrupted in order to believe that nonsense. Jesus died only for people God already decided to save before anything came to exist.
What that doctrine says about God is disgusting. It makes him out to be a sadist, a narcissist, and a liar.
Of course all who accept Limited Atonement as true are those who believe they must be the elect Jesus was meant to die for.
 

Dave-L

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I agree with you on most all other proof texts that you quote, but you fail to understand that God's elect are found in Jacob. Do you not recognise that God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. Do you not take into consideration, that all Israel is not of Israel Romans 9:6? Isaiah 41:8, But thou, Israel, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. When you interpret the word Israel as being the nation of Israel in every case, you are missing out on some very important truths contained in the scriptures and are not harmonizing the scriptures. Most all of the scriptures that you have quoted in this particular post have reference to Jacob, as Israel, who represents God's elect.
How about Isaac?
 

Dave-L

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Dave-L, with all due respect, how do you interpret Rev 5:9?
“And they all sang a new song to the Lamb: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were killed, and with the blood of your death you bought people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You made them to be a kingdom of priests for our God, and they will rule on the earth.”” Revelation 5:9–10 (EXPNT)

10 You made them to be a kingdom -of priests [or and priests; Ex. 19:6] for our God, and they will -rule [reign; other manuscripts have “they reign” (present tense)] on the earth.”

Or it pertains to the New Heavens and earth.
 

Dave-L

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That is referring to Jacob, whose name is Israel. Jacob is representative of God's elect, Romans 9:11.
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” Romans 9:11–13 (KJV 1900)

What's your point?
 

Dave-L

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Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
We are talking about Paul and Matthew proving Jesus is Israel, not the broken off unbelievers.