Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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John146

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I am saying that SINCE HEAVEN will be on earth and FLESH AND BLOOD CAN'T INHERIT THE KINGDOM of Heaven that ALL THAT ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING WILL BE CHANGED SO THAT THEY ARE THE SAME as all those who came from heaven to RULE AND REIGN ON THE EARTH.
Here's where you lost me. Where in scripture does it say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven?
 

John146

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So you cannot apply "firstfruits" to any human other than Jesus Christ.
You can if you believe He was the first of many. Jesus was the first to resurrect from the dead, then those in captivity He set free.
 

John146

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Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

All this taken together proves that there will be a single resurrection of all the saved and a single resurrection of all the unsaved.

The resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent, when King Jesus comes to rule the nations with a rod of iron.
What about those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him? These are specifically different than those who died in the tribulation. Things different are not the same. One resurrection...three parts. Those who are resurrected from dying in the tribulation end the first resurrection. They are part of the gleanings.
 

Evmur

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Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!
Well you'll have to pardon me but whereas He does not say "... and receive you unto Myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN ...." neither does He say " ... and receive you unto Myself AND BRING YOU BACK TO EARTH ..."

The natural thing to suppose is that He will take us to the place He has prepared for us.

We do have cross over points

The Father's house of many mansions is the New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven [and I have always thought] reaches from earth to heaven.

And you obviously do believe in the reign of Christ with His saints here on earth, which I do too. But I believe His saints on earth will be the then converted Jews ... that's why they are being gathered back to their homeland.

Regards
 

Evmur

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No. There are only 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

This clearly means "one EACH".


Where are the verses that clearly support this? This is quite messed up.

There will be only ONE resurrection of the saved, and 1 Cor 15:23 says - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. So, "when He comes" refers to His Second Advent. And "those who belong to Him" refer to EVERY believer in human history. So, ALL believers from Adam on receive their glorified bodies at the Second Advent. Most through resurrection, and a few from "rapture".


Where are the verses? 1 Cor 15:23 proves the single resurrection of the saved will occur at the Second Advent, when King Jesus comes back to earth to "rule with an iron scepter" the survivors of the Tribulation.
The only thing I say about the second resurrection is the bible does not say the wicked YOU say the wicked. The bible says the LIVING and the dead and they are to be judged according to their deeds and according to whether their names are in the book of life or not.

We who are raised in the first resurrection are passed clear over from this judgement.

The saints will be heaven. John saw them there an innumerable crowd all dressed in white with palms.
 

kleronomos

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Here's where you lost me. Where in scripture does it say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven?

1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


The ONLY death past this point AFTER all have been changed or resurrected, WILL BE in the lake of fire. No man will be able to kill another man. DEATH COMES BY GOD at WTJ in THE LAKE OF FIRE.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
orry, but I don't understand your question. At the resurrection of all believers, they all receive glorified bodies, with which to co-reign with Christ in His kingdom on earth, and assist with ruling with a rod of iron.
386. anastasis ►
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
Agreed.

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
There is ONE major difference. Christ did and all believers will receive a glorified body. No unbeliever will.

I need for YOU to show me WHERE to find the part in which you are connecting THIS LAST DAY with the 'LAST DAY OF THE AGE'.
Sorry to disappoint you, but some discussions I view as simply going "into the woods". There are many views about "last day of the age", and frankly I don't care. What I do care about is the order of things.

So, what is clear is that there will be only 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, per Acts 24:15. And Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs the FIRST resurrection. That leaves the single resurrection of the unsaved, which occurs at the GWT judgment which is 1,000 years after the Second Advent.

No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day.
In this context, it appears that this "last day" is at the Second Advent, because that is WHEN all believers receive their glorified bodies.

I JUST can't SEE any reference at all to the LAST DAY OF THE AGE.
It seems obvious to me that the "last day of the age" is different than Jn 6:40. We know that when King Jesus comes back to earth and reigns for 1,000 years, it will be on this present earth. iow, your timex will still work. That's why the Bible gives that period a specific time length. However, after the GWT judgment and ALL unbelievers are cast into the LoF (Rev 20:11-15) ch 20 ends and ch 20 begins with this: Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Since the present earth will be replaced by a new earth, time ends when the present earth is melted. The new earth presents eternity, where your timex won't work.

I can see the resurrection on the day Christ died.
I don't. He wasn't resurrected on that day.

I can see the resurrection on the last day of someones life.
I can't. Dead believers go to heaven and are waiting for their glorified bodies (resurrection) "when He comes", that being the Second Advent.

I see the alive and remaining being changed on the LAST DAY OF THIS AGE.
I don't because the Second Advent isn't the "last day of this age". When He comes, He will reign for 1,000 years. Your timex will still work. But, when the present earth melts and replaced by a new earth (Rev 21) your timex won't work. Check it out.

WHO IS LEFT BUT THE DEAD?
I don't know what your question refers to. Please clarify.

Who do you believe the 'saved' will be ruling over for the Lords Day

and where do they come from?
ALL believers will be given glorified bodies when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent. This includes all the dead and all the living. 1 Thess 4 makes that very clear.

Since the Millennial kingdom will consist only of unsaved mortals to rule over, since ALL believers will have a glorified body, it is the unsaved who survive the Tribulation that will be ruled. And the Bible says they will be ruled with a rod of iron. Sounds rather strict, huh.

Do you know why it will be so strict?
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
So you cannot apply "firstfruits" to any human other than Jesus Christ.
You can if you believe He was the first of many.
Apparently you didn't read anything I posted. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes your claim. That chapter is THE chapter on the resurrection of the saved. v.23 proves that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent. We know it will be ALL the saved, because of the phrase "those who belong to Him". EVERY believer from Adam on belongs to Him.

Jesus was the first to resurrect from the dead, then those in captivity He set free.
You don't have any evidence that those in captivity received glorified bodies. So I disagree with your assessment.

Jesus simply took all the dead saints from Adam forward, living in Paradise, which is in Hades, to heaven above. They won't have their resurrection bodies (glorified) until the Bible says so, and it does in 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2:1.
 

FreeGrace2

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What about those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him? These are specifically different than those who died in the tribulation.
Why would they be? What evidence do you have. In fact, until the Second Advent, EVERY believer who dies since His resurrection goes to heaven. So the Trib martyrs are resurrected WHEN all the rest of believers are resurrected. There is no difference.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

If there were a difference, then this verse is in error. It says EVERY believer will be resurrected "when He comes". All at once.

Things different are not the same. One resurrection...three parts. Those who are resurrected from dying in the tribulation end the first resurrection. They are part of the gleanings.
You need to forget your "gleaning" concepts. 1 Cor 15:23 shows that Jesus was the FIRST to be given a glorified body, and then WHEN He comes, EVERY one else gets theirs.
 

FreeGrace2

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The only thing I say about the second resurrection is the bible does not say the wicked YOU say the wicked.
Let's look at what the Bible says.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I count 2 resurrections. How many do you count?

The bible says the LIVING and the dead and they are to be judged according to their deeds and according to whether their names are in the book of life or not.

We who are raised in the first resurrection are passed clear over from this judgement.
All believers will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Bema when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent and sets up His 1,000 year reign.

The saints will be heaven. John saw them there an innumerable crowd all dressed in white with palms.
All the saints who have died until King Jesus returns. There will be some living saints when He returns.
 

John146

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1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


The ONLY death past this point AFTER all have been changed or resurrected, WILL BE in the lake of fire. No man will be able to kill another man. DEATH COMES BY GOD at WTJ in THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Yep, I know this passage well. However, it does not say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, but the kingdom of God. There is a difference between the two. One is spiritual, and the other physical. Both will be realized at the second coming.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Man's blood is corrupt. This corruptness was passed down from Adam. Our bodies need a change, without blood.

There will be some of those, I believe OT saints and future Jewish saints in the tribulation, that will not get glorified bodies but will have to eat from the tree of life and live in eternity. Just something to think about.
 

John146

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FreeGrace2 said:
So you cannot apply "firstfruits" to any human other than Jesus Christ.

Apparently you didn't read anything I posted. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes your claim. That chapter is THE chapter on the resurrection of the saved. v.23 proves that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent. We know it will be ALL the saved, because of the phrase "those who belong to Him". EVERY believer from Adam on belongs to Him.


You don't have any evidence that those in captivity received glorified bodies. So I disagree with your assessment.

Jesus simply took all the dead saints from Adam forward, living in Paradise, which is in Hades, to heaven above. They won't have their resurrection bodies (glorified) until the Bible says so, and it does in 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2:1.
I cannot equate OT saints with the body of Christ. We have something better than them. I cannot equate future tribulation saints with the body of Christ. We have something better than them.

The body of Christ did not begin until after the resurrection. It seems you are placing everyone together?
 

John146

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Why would they be? What evidence do you have. In fact, until the Second Advent, EVERY believer who dies since His resurrection goes to heaven. So the Trib martyrs are resurrected WHEN all the rest of believers are resurrected. There is no difference.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

If there were a difference, then this verse is in error. It says EVERY believer will be resurrected "when He comes". All at once.


You need to forget your "gleaning" concepts. 1 Cor 15:23 shows that Jesus was the FIRST to be given a glorified body, and then WHEN He comes, EVERY one else gets theirs.
If you believe this, then believers in the tribulation are at risk of losing their eternal salvation by taking the mark of the beast.
 

FreeGrace2

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I cannot equate OT saints with the body of Christ.
Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.

Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.

We have something better than them. I cannot equate future tribulation saints with the body of Christ. We have something better than them.
Regardless of status, 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view.

The body of Christ did not begin until after the resurrection. It seems you are placing everyone together?
No, Scripture HAS PLACED everyone together by the phrase "those who belong to Him".

Given your view then, please defend your apparent view that OT believers somehow DON'T 'belong to Him'.

This should be interesting.
 

FreeGrace2

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If you believe this, then believers in the tribulation are at risk of losing their eternal salvation by taking the mark of the beast.
This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.

Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.

Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.

1 Cor 11:30 shows that. As does a host of verses.

So no one has to worry about the mark of the beast.

btw, IF God did allow any believer to take the mark, He would be contradicting Himself.

otoh, His Word says those who take the mark will end up in the LoF.

on the other hand, His Word guarantees eternal life to the believer (John 10:28).

So allowing any believer to take the mark would create a conflict and contradiction.

God won't allow that to happen. Instead, God will glean the unfaithful and disobedient from the earth before the mark will be available.
 

John146

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Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.

Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.


Regardless of status, 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view.


No, Scripture HAS PLACED everyone together by the phrase "those who belong to Him".

Given your view then, please defend your apparent view that OT believers somehow DON'T 'belong to Him'.

This should be interesting.
The OT saints did not belong to Him as part of His body. They died in faith before the resurrection. We have something better than they.
 

John146

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This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.

Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.

Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.

1 Cor 11:30 shows that. As does a host of verses.

So no one has to worry about the mark of the beast.

btw, IF God did allow any believer to take the mark, He would be contradicting Himself.

otoh, His Word says those who take the mark will end up in the LoF.

on the other hand, His Word guarantees eternal life to the believer (John 10:28).

So allowing any believer to take the mark would create a conflict and contradiction.

God won't allow that to happen. Instead, God will glean the unfaithful and disobedient from the earth before the mark will be available.
Do you believe we have to keep the commandments of God for salvation? The tribulation saint has to...

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.

Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.
The OT saints did not belong to Him as part of His body.
This is just really a stretch. I asked for evidence from Scripture and you give me your presumptions.

You're just arguing AGAINST the verses I provided that SAY there is a singular resurrerction. And you haven't proven otherwise from Scripture. Your presumptions certainly don't count. Only Scripture does.

They died in faith before the resurrection. We have something better than they.
This is IRRELEVANT to your presumptions.

You are arguing that OT believers DON'T BELONG to Christ. That's preposterous.

Another thing: your hangup appears to be regarding the "body of Christ". Where does the Bible specifically separate out resurrection for the "Body of Christ" and the OT saints? Nowhere.

You don't have a case.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.

Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.

Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.
Do you believe we have to keep the commandments of God for salvation? The tribulation saint has to...
First, you didn't answer either of my questions, and then you give me 2 questions??? How does that work? Why can't you at least answer my questions?

Second, NO and NO. Your view is quite wrong. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. If salvation was EVER by works, then man would be saving himself. Which is pure nonsense.

Paul's own testimony as an expert in the Law and OT (Pharisee) was this:

Acts 24:14 - However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
Acts 26:22 - But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen

So please don't tell me that salvation was by works in the OT, or even in the Tribulation.

Paul, who admitted that he totally agreed with Moses, the Law and the prophets, also wrote Eph 2:8,9. Think about it.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Says nothing about working for your salvation.