Does Acts 2:38 mean we have to be baptized to get into Heaven? -Debate

[kennethcadwell]

Ok Mr. Ken you show me one passage, just one, that says "those who are not baptized by water are condemned to hell". Just one passage that says that. Not any run around junk but that particular statement.

Read post #217, plus in Mark 16:16 Jesus puts baptism a part of a believers life. Showing that a true believer will not be baptized. Now like I said before just because the Lord I believe will show mercy to those who are on their death bed and don't have a chance to get baptized. This does not excuse us to be disobedient and not obey that command, or tell others not needed. Paul makes this point ecstatically in Romans.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really, I have and plus the Lord said you must be born again through water and spirit.
The water part is not natural birth like some have tried to pass it off as.

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (3:4–8)

Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this truth (v. 10), it must have been something with which he was familiar. Water and Spirit often refer symbolically in the Old Testament to spiritual renewal and cleansing (cf. Num. 19:17–19; Isa. 4:4; 32:15; 44:3; 55:1; Joel 2:28–29;Zech. 13:1). In one of the most glorious passages in all of Scripture describing Israel’s restoration to the Lord by the new covenant, God said through Ezekiel,
For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezek. 36:24–27)

The example of this in the new testament now is the baptism done in water that was commanded in Mark 16 and Matthew 28, and then the receiving of the Holy Spirit . That Peter and the other apostles continued to do, and Peter showed the baptism in water and receiving was two separate events that came in succession.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1. Jesus NEVER mentioned baptism in John 3 Not once, In fact Jesus said quite clearly when nicodemous what makes one born again.

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


Why did jesus spend all this time saying this, yet not mention baptism once. Why did Jesus ask him how he was a teacher of the law, and did not understand what Jesus meant (if water baptism is involved, how could nicodemous know by the law)As for acts 2. I am sick of saying it does not say that, the greek text. nor the Ole English texts say both repentnance and water baptism is essentional for the gift of the spirit. The gift of the spirit is related to repentance ONLY, remmision of sin is the REASON one gets baptised.

Your continued ignorance of this fact is amazing.

 

[elf3]

Read post #217, plus in Mark 16:16 Jesus puts baptism a part of a believers life. Showing that a true believer will not be baptized. Now like I said before just because the Lord I believe will show mercy to those who are on their death bed and don't have a chance to get baptized. This does not excuse us to be disobedient and not obey that command, or tell others not needed. Paul makes this point ecstatically in Romans.

There ya go. You just had God "change" the means of justification according to circumstance. It's either saved by faith or saved be faith - baptism - good works. God does not change according to circumstance. You want God to "work for you" not "you work for God". You cannot change your view according to circumstance. If you do that then it shows you put God in a box to work the way you want Him too.

 

[Mitspa]

That is not what that scripture is saying.
That scripture is talking about that we need to deal with the sins in our own life, and work on eliminating them with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And not hold the sins of others against them ( judging them ) because we are all guilty of sins and are deserving of death. The good news is though that we can be forgiven of those sins by His grace, love, mercy, and forgiveness to us. In turn we are to show that same love, mercy, and forgiveness to others.

It is true that we can not keep God's moral laws without His help and guidance from the Holy Spirit, but the taking the log out of your eye is about not judging and looking down on others for their sin for you are equally guilty by yours. And unless you repent of your sins you will die just like them for their unrepented sin. ( Luke 13:3 )

So how can someone love others as themselves when they judge and preach to others a standard they cannot keep themselves? And of Course the Lord is speaking about hypocrisy when He tells us to get the log out of our own eye. The "repentance" we are first called to is repentance from dead works...trying to justify ourselves by the works of the law. "the law is not of faith" "the strength of sin is the law" No one who claims to keep the Ten Commandments keeps them...in fact they produce sinful lust and desires in those who are under the written code. The standard is not to do better than others or feel more guilt...its to keep the Royal Law of God!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Again it is needful to say there is only one NEW COVENANT baptism, that offered by Jesus, God's Christ. Jesus in not on record dunking anyone in water. John did that under the OLD Covenant.

To be born again it is necessary to have that spirit baptism of Jesus. He wants to immerse His disciples in the depth of the Holy Spirit.

John's baptism in water can't help our salvation. It is a sign only. Being put IN the water is analogous to the world of people drowning in the Flood, showing they needed to repent. They didn't. That same analogy is current with God. When baptized in water the candidate is only expressing the fact of his repentance from sin, by association with Jesus being dead to sin, buried with Jesus to die to sin. That was John's message, causing people to prepare for Jesus, first repenting of sin. Jesus took it from there, preaching the good news of His kingdom John only could prepare for.

 

[Butch5]

yet you teach a number of gospels.

some get saved without being baptized. some get saved by being baptized.

Scripture says there are two ways to heaven. the law and grace.

since the aw condemns everyone because all have sinned, it means the only thing left is grace. Grace is free. or else it is not grace.

Actually, there is one Gospel and the majority of Christians today don't see it because what is typically taught in churches is personal salvation. The Gospel that Christ brought is much bigger than just personal salvation, however, too many can't see the forest for the trees. Jesus brought the Gospel, yet, He didn't teach, believe I'm going to die for your sins and you'll be saved. Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom. However, the one who saves is God, Jesus is the one who will decided who does and who does not get saved, He is the judge. His words recorded in Mark 16 state that baptism occurs before salvation. If you don't believe the judge there's not really much one can say.

One problem that can occur when one has a wrong doctrine is that it leads to other wrong doctrines. The faith alone doctrine is wrong and it leads to wrong understanding of baptism among others.

Since you claim that baptism isn't necessary please explain to me why Jesus was baptized and why it was at His baptism that He received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

so what are those conditions? how good is good enough? You keep saying conditions, but you never state what they are

I've already stated several. Paul said one must call on the name of the Lord, Jesus said one must be baptized, Peter said one must repent, Jesus said one must keep His commands. No one is recorded in Scripture saying that one only has to believe.

 

[Butch5]

In Acts 10 Peter was preaching at the house of Cornelius
While he was preaching, the Holy Ghost fell and people began to speak in other tongues.
A simple reading of Romans 8:9 shows that if you have the Spirit of God in you, you belong to God.
There is a problem here if you have to be baptized to be saved, there is no way these people could have the Spirit of God in them without being saved. Remember, Peter commanded them to be baptized afterwards. This plainly shows that they were saved before being baptized, it also shows that it is important to still be baptized after being saved.
God Bless

You're assuming one cannot have the Spirit without first being saved, Scripture doesn't say that.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Let me ask a question or two or more.

All those people that John the Baptist dunked in water....were all saved by that? Was Jesus saved doing that? The people responded by faith. John preached the coming savior.

If you say "Yes", then why did Jesus die on the cross? Were those people saved in advance of that? Why did the apostles reaffirm that salvation is in faith in HIS name, calling upon His name? Where is John recorded naming Jesus until Jesus fulfilled his ministry, baptizing Jesus in water?

Jesus didn't baptise anyone in water, yet He spoke of another baptism He would give. Are some of you saying Jesus promised to baptize believers in water? He didn't get around to that. Paul refused to be associated with a ministry of baptizing believers in water, excepting a very few people.

Of course John's baptism in water is a fine sign of the need for repentance. Once believing and repenting it is a great testimony and milestone for any believer. But being water baptized is not required for salvation. Seek the spirit baptism of Jesus that John the Baptist foretold in Matthew 3:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Which one is New Covenant? Was repentance unto salvation generally possible before Jesus brought the gospel? No. John's baptism was pre-cross, under the old. Good, but not good enough to be required for salvation. It was for the purpose of identifying the Messiah Jesus. Jesus spent His whole life on earth under the old covenant. It took His death to conquer that covenant.

John 7:37-39 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Mark 10:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

He spoke that to men already baptized in water as He himself had been.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Since you claim that baptism isn't necessary please explain to me why Jesus was baptized and why it was at His baptism that He received the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit had only been given to Jesus until He was glorified after death.
John 7:38-39 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[kennethcadwell]

There ya go. You just had God "change" the means of justification according to circumstance. It's either saved by faith or saved be faith - baptism - good works. God does not change according to circumstance. You want God to "work for you" not "you work for God". You cannot change your view according to circumstance. If you do that then it shows you put God in a box to work the way you want Him too.

No it does not change the means, it is still by faith. But a saving faith will do what He commanded, and a no saving faith will deny and disobey the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

The Holy Spirit had only been given to Jesus until He was glorified after death.
John 7:38-39 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[Butch5]

Let me ask a question or two or more.

All those people that John the Baptist dunked in water....were all saved by that? Was Jesus saved doing that? The people responded by faith. John preached the coming savior.

If you say "Yes", then why did Jesus die on the cross? Were those people saved in advance of that? Why did the apostles reaffirm that salvation is in faith in HIS name, calling upon His name? Where is John recorded naming Jesus until Jesus fulfilled his ministry, baptizing Jesus in water?

Jesus didn't baptise anyone in water, yet He spoke of another baptism He would give. Are some of you saying Jesus promised to baptize believers in water? He didn't get around to that. Paul refused to be associated with a ministry of baptizing believers in water, excepting a very few people.

Of course John's baptism in water is a fine sign of the need for repentance. Once believing and repenting it is a great testimony and milestone for any believer. But being water baptized is not required for salvation. Seek the spirit baptism of Jesus that John the Baptist foretold in Matthew 3:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Which one is New Covenant? Was repentance unto salvation generally possible before Jesus brought the gospel? No. John's baptism was pre-cross, under the old. Good, but not good enough to be required for salvation. It was for the purpose of identifying the Messiah Jesus. Jesus spent His whole life on earth under the old covenant. It took His death to conquer that covenant.

John 7:37-39 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Mark 10:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

He spoke that to men already baptized in water as He himself had been.

There's a problem here. Mark opens his "Gospel of Jesus Christ" with water baptism.

KJV Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mar 1:1-4 KJV)

The first thing we see in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is water baptism.

To answer your question were they saved, the ones before the cross, no one is actually saved until the resurrection. The Scripture use the word saved in three tenses, past, present, and future. This shows that salvation is an on going process not a one time event. Too many Christians wrongly understand salvation as a point in time event, it's not. Entering into the New Covenant is a point in time event, however, that point in time event begins a process that lasts throughout one's life. So, were they saved before the cross? Technically, no, but neither are those who enter after the cross. Saved is simply a term used for entering into the covenant. It is assumed that one will remain in the covenant, if they don't then they won't be saved in the end.

However, there is still Mark 16 to address which states plainly that belief and baptism precede saved.

 

[Mitspa]

No it does not change the means, it is still by faith. But a saving faith will do what He commanded, and a no saving faith will deny and disobey the Lord.

Do you obey ALL the commandments of God All the time? How much grace should we allow for your sin before we decide you must be unsaved? Give us the standard you keep before you unsave others according to some standard only you seem to understand? The standard is faith working by love (according to the Spirit of God) That is the gospel all else is false doctrine.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Being born again through water and spirit is baptism.

1. Jesus NEVER mentioned baptism in John 3 Not once, In fact Jesus said quite clearly when nicodemous what makes one born again.

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


Why did jesus spend all this time saying this, yet not mention baptism once. Why did Jesus ask him how he was a teacher of the law, and did not understand what Jesus meant (if water baptism is involved, how could nicodemous know by the law)As for acts 2. I am sick of saying it does not say that, the greek text. nor the Ole English texts say both repentnance and water baptism is essentional for the gift of the spirit. The gift of the spirit is related to repentance ONLY, remmision of sin is the REASON one gets baptised.

Your continued ignorance of this fact is amazing.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do you obey the commandments of God? How much grace should we allow for your sin before we decide you must be unsaved? Give us the standard you keep before you unsave others according to some standard only you seem to understand? The standard is faith working by love (according to the Spirit of God) That is the gospel all else is false doctrine.

Your grace does not matter, it is God's grace that I am saved by faith, and that faith if it has no works is dead.
The gospel is about being forgiven of our sins, by the blood that was shed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We obtain that forgiveness through repentance, baptism, and confession.

By hearing the word and trusting in it comes your faith, by faith comes love and obedience, through that love and obedience comes repentance of sins, confession, and baptism. Also comes the love for all others.
Lord Jesus says in Matthew 25 if you refuse to help others in need you will get eternal punishment instead of eternal life.
Because by denying to help others, you deny Him. This as well as others show that if you say you believe, yet your actions and works do not show it then you are a goat and not a sheep. Sheep get eternal life, goats get the lake of fire.

 

[Mitspa]

Your grace does not matter, it is God's grace that I am saved by faith, and that faith if it has no works is dead.
The gospel is about being forgiven of our sins, by the blood that was shed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We obtain that forgiveness through repentance, baptism, and confession.

By hearing the word and trusting in it comes your faith, by faith comes love and obedience, through that love and obedience comes repentance of sins, confession, and baptism. Also comes the love for all others.
Lord Jesus says in Matthew 25 if you refuse to help others in need you will get eternal punishment instead of eternal life.
Because by denying to help others, you deny Him. This as well as others show that if you say you believe, yet your actions and works do not show it then you are a goat and not a sheep. Sheep get eternal life, goats get the lake of fire.

What I was asking brother is you seem to have a standard that requires that others don't sin? Im wondering if you keep that standard that you are trying to preach to others? Or if this standard is kinda based on the amount of grace you need? The Royal Law is that we love others as ourself..( which fulfills ALL THE LAW).Now that means we don't judge others by a standard we don't keep ourselves...In that the Law of Moses is broken and dishonored and the Law of Christ is forsaken.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What I was asking brother is you seem to have a standard that requires that others don't sin? Im wondering if you keep that standard that you are trying to preach to others? Or if this standard is kinda based on the amount of grace you need? The Royal Law is that we love others as ourself..( which fulfills ALL THE LAW).Now that means we don't judge others by a standard we don't keep ourselves...In that the Law of Moses is broken and dishonored and the Law of Christ is forsaken.

Well first you would have the wrong impression for I never said that you can not sin, what I said is that you can not live in willful sin. Which there is a big difference according to the bible.
For the willful sinner is one who keeps doing the sin/sins without repentance, asking forgiveness, no remorse or conviction.
We Christians who backslide from time to time, will feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will be lead to repent and ask forgiveness of that sin.
There are two commandments that fulfill the law by following in them;

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


You can not obey either one of those commands if you don't follow the rest of what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said.
( And we are not held to the mosaic laws, Colossians 2:14 )
Here are some more of His commands, and then I will end it with a scripture where Jesus is explaining how somebody who believes in Him will be like;

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[h=1]Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/h]

Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[Mitspa]

Well first you would have the wrong impression for I never said that you can not sin, what I said is that you can not live in willful sin. Which there is a big difference according to the bible.
For the willful sinner is one who keeps doing the sin/sins without repentance, asking forgiveness, no remorse or conviction.
We Christians who backslide from time to time, will feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will be lead to repent and ask forgiveness of that sin.
There are two commandments that fulfill the law by following in them;

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


You can not obey either one of those commands if you don't follow the rest of what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said.
( And we are not held to the mosaic laws, Colossians 2:14 )
Here are some more of His commands, and then I will end it with a scripture where Jesus is explaining how somebody who believes in Him will be like;

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.



Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Well the "willful sin" of Hebrews is to return to the law and self-righteousness..."the strength of sin is the law" So if we have people claiming to represent God...that are putting other believers under the law and standards they cannot keep...who is to blame? I believe its those who teach false doctrine and put stumbling blocks in the way of The Lords little ones, who trust in Him by faith.

Again I just ask what biblical standard do you keep...I know the scriptures and can tell you the standard I keep... Faith working by Gods Love in me....That's it...that's all I can do is have faith and love others with the Love God has given me by His Spirit.

 

[Standingwolf13]

John 4​

22""You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."…

John 3​

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.