Does anyone else perceive something radical Occurring with the Writings of Paul
- Thread starter JaumeJ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
No offence but if one would just listen to what jesus said, his words would be simple.
You want to obey Gods commands (the law) love.
Jesus told us HOW to obey Gods commands, Your right, he did not replace them, he told us HOW to obey them.
if you think we obey the command honor your father and mother, just by doing what it says, you are sadly mistaking. You may look like your obeying, you may even think you are obaying, but in reality, you are being carnal. Because you are following a rule (do as I say) and NOT following what God wanted you to do to begin with "LOVE" Your parents.
God gave us the command to prove we have failed to follow it, and bring us to Christ because we are a proven sinner.
He did not give it to us to SHOW US HOW to obey it. it CAN NOT DO THAT (make a man righteous)
and no, when I say righteous, I am not saying saved, I am saying a man who does righteous deeds. and lives a righteous life by doing the works of God.
You want to obey Gods commands (the law) love.
Jesus told us HOW to obey Gods commands, Your right, he did not replace them, he told us HOW to obey them.
if you think we obey the command honor your father and mother, just by doing what it says, you are sadly mistaking. You may look like your obeying, you may even think you are obaying, but in reality, you are being carnal. Because you are following a rule (do as I say) and NOT following what God wanted you to do to begin with "LOVE" Your parents.
God gave us the command to prove we have failed to follow it, and bring us to Christ because we are a proven sinner.
He did not give it to us to SHOW US HOW to obey it. it CAN NOT DO THAT (make a man righteous)
and no, when I say righteous, I am not saying saved, I am saying a man who does righteous deeds. and lives a righteous life by doing the works of God.
E
Seems as if todays religion for some has nothing left to hang on the two greatest laws of love. LOL Those 2 laws are just there without any descriptive instructions. Make it up as you go philosophy, leaving the door wide open for the carnal mind to dominate and determined what it is. 
I do not need to learn how to love, All I have to do is follow these hundreds of rules and regulations. And I have it made.
And you wonder why people look at the people of God over the centuries as a group of people who di not do what their leader (jesus Christ) did. and love all people.
If is because Gods so called people or focused on rules and religion, and NOT LEARNING HOW TO LOVE AS GOD LOVED.
E
Is it getting lukewarm in here?
God's law is done away! Let's not read the old testament anymore! All we have to do is say we love God and love our neighbors! And the "Holy Spirit" is doing it all for us!
View attachment 125090
God's law is done away! Let's not read the old testament anymore! All we have to do is say we love God and love our neighbors! And the "Holy Spirit" is doing it all for us!
View attachment 125090
E
Yet another strawman.
No one is claiming we should not live in a way that will break Gods OT laws.
We are saying, there is a BETTER WAY to be ABLE TO live according to those laws. and it is not by obeying these rules.
if people would focus on love more, and less on religion and rules. Gods people would be not only more in tune with God. but the world would be drawn to them in ways not seen since Christ left and the church was started.
Everyone has varying reasons for not obeying certain commandmnets found in the torah. I don't know what yours is. I was just chiming in with the ideology that I hear the most often. Why don't you obey the Torah? Because it was just for jews? Because Jesus "fulfilled it"? Because it "can't make you righteous"? No need for argument, just going through the scriptures together.
K
The OT has many very good reads for learning and understand the whole word of God.
However with that being said the NT clearly teaches that the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws do not apply to us believers under the new covenant. The Galatians were called out by Paul saying they were following a false gospel by seeking their justification by keeping those written ordinances, instead of being justified by the Lord and His command to love.
Commands still apply under the new covenant for believers, but they are not the written ordinances nor are they to be obeyed as such that if not kept they will cost one salvation. The moral law of God (perfect law of liberty) which calls for us to walk in the Spirit and the fruits thereof with the greatest being love !!!
However with that being said the NT clearly teaches that the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws do not apply to us believers under the new covenant. The Galatians were called out by Paul saying they were following a false gospel by seeking their justification by keeping those written ordinances, instead of being justified by the Lord and His command to love.
Commands still apply under the new covenant for believers, but they are not the written ordinances nor are they to be obeyed as such that if not kept they will cost one salvation. The moral law of God (perfect law of liberty) which calls for us to walk in the Spirit and the fruits thereof with the greatest being love !!!
In Matthew Jesus states:These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world...While it is true we should share in the sufferings of Christ.I believe Jesus made it clear that it was him who has overcome(overthrown) the god of this world.We couldn't possibly of our own accord. Another reason we need Jesus...I do like your thought Chris, for people to stop wandering around dying in the wilderness(beating themselves down thinking we are not good enough to accept salvation) and enter His promise...
While Jesus has indeed overcome death, do we see it destroyed yet?
[1 Corinthians 15:25 NKJV] For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
[Hebrews 2:8 NKJV] You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
Did Jesus overcome death by his heroics on the cross?
[Hebrews 1:3 NKJV] who being the brightness of [His] glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
He sure did. Do we see death destroyed yet? No, that's the last enemy. So what is he waiting for? Remember,
[Romans 6:16 NKJV] Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
Jesus said
[John 11:25 NKJV] Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
[John 11:26 NKJV] "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
(I would translate this verse as "whoever lives in me and believes in me shall never die" - remember, he is juxtaposing it with the previous verse. 2 paths to eternal life are presented here, both of course through Jesus. He also confirms this translation in another place...)
[John 8:51 NKJV] "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
This is what it means to repent - not to 'get saved' like the church tells you, rather, to join in the fight to overcome this world. When they say 'repent, and be saved' - what are they saying you will be saved from? There is only one answer: death. Jesus saved us from death. If you die, you didn't repent and get saved from death. However, if you believe in him, though you may die, you shall live.
Is Jesus not returning because he is being slack, or longsuffering toward us?
[2 Peter 3:9 NKJV] The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
[2 Peter 3:10 NKJV] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
[2 Peter 3:11 NKJV] Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
[2 Peter 3:12 NKJV] looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Before I get into a discussion about the Bible, I always make sure the person I'm discussing it with realizes that it never contradicts itself. If the Bible contradicts itself, it's not the word of God. Simple as that. So if your beliefs cause contradiction in scripture, you either don't understand it, or you're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you think are true.
So did Jesus,
[Mark 10:4 NKJV] They said, "Moses permitted [a man] to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss [her]."
[Mark 10:5 NKJV] And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
[Mark 10:6 NKJV] "But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'
[Mark 10:7 NKJV] 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
[Mark 10:8 NKJV] 'and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
[Mark 10:9 NKJV] "Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
So, what's the rule? If a later command of God contradicts an earlier command, the later is due to the hardness of the peoples' hearts and inability to keep the former.
[Mark 10:4 NKJV] They said, "Moses permitted [a man] to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss [her]."
[Mark 10:5 NKJV] And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
[Mark 10:6 NKJV] "But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'
[Mark 10:7 NKJV] 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
[Mark 10:8 NKJV] 'and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
[Mark 10:9 NKJV] "Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
So, what's the rule? If a later command of God contradicts an earlier command, the later is due to the hardness of the peoples' hearts and inability to keep the former.
Keep reading and you'll have your answer.
He wasn't condemning divorce. He was condemning divorce without a cause. You'll notice in the next few verses Jesus says that it is lawful to divorce your spouse if he/she commits adultery.
And this is nothing different. Read the precept in the torah, and even there, it says divorce is only permissable if the husband finds some unfaithfulness in his wife.
He wasn't condemning divorce. He was condemning divorce without a cause. You'll notice in the next few verses Jesus says that it is lawful to divorce your spouse if he/she commits adultery.
And this is nothing different. Read the precept in the torah, and even there, it says divorce is only permissable if the husband finds some unfaithfulness in his wife.
Mathew 5:52
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Compare this to the commandment in the torah.
Deuteronomy 24:1
When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
See how the Bible is in perfect agreement with itself? No contradictions between the OT and the NT.
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Compare this to the commandment in the torah.
Deuteronomy 24:1
When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
See how the Bible is in perfect agreement with itself? No contradictions between the OT and the NT.
Everything you said, is, of course, true. However, everything I said is also true =) And there's no contradiction there...
God gave them that command because of the hardness of their hearts. If anyone divorces a woman for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit it. This is obvious because if she has already committed it, she has already committed it...
God gave them that command because of the hardness of their hearts. If anyone divorces a woman for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit it. This is obvious because if she has already committed it, she has already committed it...
It's clear that God hates divorce. But then again, He Himself divorced Israel when they turned to other gods. If you've read Jeremiah and Ezekiel, you know all about how God considered Himself to be a husband to Israel. Their exile to Assyria was their "divorce".
The pharisees who Jesus was arguing with thought that they could divorce their wives for any reason. That's where they were wrong. Jesus did not change anything about the torah. He simply corrected them, and showed them that it's only lawful to divorce your spouse if they betray you.
The pharisees who Jesus was arguing with thought that they could divorce their wives for any reason. That's where they were wrong. Jesus did not change anything about the torah. He simply corrected them, and showed them that it's only lawful to divorce your spouse if they betray you.
God only allowed Israel to divorce him because she wanted to, but He always wanted her back, and took her back in the end. It was due to Israel's hardness of heart that He allowed the divorce, not His own.
A man who loves as God loves will love his wife even through sexual immorality, this is a great and difficult thing to do. Few can stand it, and therefore divorce in this situation was permitted.
A man who loves as God loves will love his wife even through sexual immorality, this is a great and difficult thing to do. Few can stand it, and therefore divorce in this situation was permitted.
S
Jesus pointed to his authority to transform and redefine the Old Covenant when he said "but I say to you".
The focus was being moved away from the Old Covenant and toward the New Covenant.
This is a consistent theme throughout his ministry.
And, at the Cross, the Old Covenant was abolished, despite what Torah observers want to hear.
Focus on Jesus not the Old Covenant.
That premise is defended in a book by Dale Ratzlaff called Sabbath in Christ.
As an ex Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law observer, I am neutral with regards to the observances, but I am very much against the spirit of judgmentalism that typically accompanies those who proclaim them as being applicable to New Covenant Christians. Usually their judgmentalism extends somewhere between declaring them lukewarm to denying their salvation. That is why I refuse to be associated with them anymore.
The focus was being moved away from the Old Covenant and toward the New Covenant.
This is a consistent theme throughout his ministry.
And, at the Cross, the Old Covenant was abolished, despite what Torah observers want to hear.
Focus on Jesus not the Old Covenant.
That premise is defended in a book by Dale Ratzlaff called Sabbath in Christ.
As an ex Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law observer, I am neutral with regards to the observances, but I am very much against the spirit of judgmentalism that typically accompanies those who proclaim them as being applicable to New Covenant Christians. Usually their judgmentalism extends somewhere between declaring them lukewarm to denying their salvation. That is why I refuse to be associated with them anymore.