Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,376
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113
#21
So did you just wake up one day and decide that you were elect? Did you actually have a conversion experience or simply arrive at an intellectual conclusion that you are elect and thereby saved?

Did you ever acknowledge your sin before the Lord and ask Him to for give you for your sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Calvinist believes that they were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Scripture says otherwise.

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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#22
It seems to me if I were to believe your point of view as a christian father I would like to have a little more reassurance about my children salvation..... Please don't get me wrong but I have total trust and faith in the Lord that He will keep His hand upon my children. I have dedicated them to Him( not at church) but to Him personally... I truly believe I will answer to the Lord on how I raised my children..... Theirs such a great responsibility that God has given me to lead and guide my children to him..... Why if their salvation is already determined? ( don't worry I understand talking about children can be sensitive subject but please feel free to respond no hard feelings here)

Prov: 22:6. Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. I know its not a promise but a great word of wisdom with really great results.... I receive my children as a charge from the Lord..
So what's the point if there salvation is already set?

Sorry for my grammar lol
None of us know who the elect of God are, only He knows that.

One of my pastors sons has decided that Christianity is not for him and he has left the Church and he isn't attending any other Church. He is no longer showing any interest in the things of God, the whole Church prays for him on a regular basis but he has gone into the world and he has made it clear that he wants nothing to do with the Church or the things of God.

This is heart breaking for the whole family and the Church, he was raised in the Church and attended every week until he was 20 years old and now he's been gone for 2 years and he has distanced himself all the more as time goes by.

The pastors other children have all been baptized and they are all committed to the life of the Church and following Christ.

The pastor expressed his grief to me and said he would be very sad to go to heaven knowing his son won't be going there with the rest of the family. I tried to comfort him by saying that God will wipe the memory of that son from your mind and it will be like he never existed and you will be completely happy.
He wasn't thrilled to hear my words of encouragement but God can do just that and the person will be filled with happiness and joy, with no memory of those who were lost.

I know it's hard for us to accept everything God does, while we use our fallen corrupt mind in this life but we will receive a perfectly sinless mind in the life to come. So God will take care of everything so we shouldn't worry about anything, just trust and obey Him.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
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#23
So did you just wake up one day and decide that you were elect? Did you actually have a conversion experience or simply arrive at an intellectual conclusion that you are elect and thereby saved?

Did you ever acknowledge your sin before the Lord and ask Him to for give you for your sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
My conversion and realization that I am one of Gods elect was a long process. I made a profession of faith when I was 12 and attended Church and tried to live the Christian life until the age of 17 then I turned my back on God and lived as a heathen until I was 29.

Then one day I got on my knees and repented and asked Jesus to come back and be the Lord of my life, He obliged and changed my life. I back slid a few times and went back into the world to get my fill, but I repented and came back again.

Looking back now, I can see that it was God who drew me back to Himself every time. I believe God allowed me to go back into the world because I wasn't ready to fully commit, but the point is God never lost me. If God wasn't drawing me back to Himself, I would have stayed in the world like 95% of my friends did.

My friends couldn't understand why I left the party scene and the beautiful girls and drugs, to go and join a bunch of boring Christians. I wished that I never left the Church in the first place, but looking back it seems like it was all meant to be that way. Now the world is not attractive anymore, it has nothing to offer. All I want to do is serve the Lord, in whatever way He leads me to.
 
Mar 23, 2016
2,724
508
113
#24
This comes down to the question of God's sovereign will over all things, including who is saved and who is not saved.
In discussing the unbeliever who will find him/herself cast into the lake of fire, you stated:

"They do have a choice not to sin, nobody forces them. They chose to sin all by themselves, and yes not having the gift to believe the Gospel doesn't help their sinful state." (Post #14)

I then asked:

"So they do not have to suppress the truth in unrighteousness?" (Post #15)

Your response in Post #16 does not answer the question. Can you please answer the question:

The unbeliever who has a choice to not sin:
Does God provide what is needed for them to not sin
but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and sin, despite the fact that God has provided what is needed to not sin?

Very simple questions. Why will you not answer?




Slayer said:
We believe God has full control over all things, including salvation itself. We ascribe all power and authority to God, we don't believe that God left the most important decision of salvation in the hands of fallen, sinful men. We believe He made that decision before He created the world.
You do not "ascribe all power and authority to God". You do not believe the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all mankind.

God allowing mankind to reject Him does not mean "the most important decision of salvation" is left "in the hands of fallen, sinful men".

God has provided for all mankind the means to not reject Him and those who reject Him do so in spite of God providing all that is necessary. That is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Through your belief system, the unbeliever has an excuse because you believe God does not give them faith to believe.




Slayer said:
You need to walk over so many verses of scripture to embrace the "free choice view". We can't just rationalize away all those scriptures to support the "free choice" movement,
There are just as many verses being swept under the carpet in embracing calvinism.




Slayer said:
which takes the power of salvation away from God and gives it to sinful men.
Again, God providing to all mankind that which is necessary to come to faith and some rejecting what God has provided does not take "the power of salvation away from God".

It is heartbreaking to me to know there are some who would reject this wonderful gift and this wonderful relationship with God. I cannot imagine the heartbreak to God, Who provided all that is necessary. He gave His Son to die on the cross. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil 2:8), and yet some, in their foolish pride and love of the temporary lusts of the flesh, throw that away with no thought of the eternal consequence of their actions.

 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#25
None of us know who the elect of God are, only He knows that.

One of my pastors sons has decided that Christianity is not for him and he has left the Church and he isn't attending any other Church. He is no longer showing any interest in the things of God, the whole Church prays for him on a regular basis but he has gone into the world and he has made it clear that he wants nothing to do with the Church or the things of God.

This is heart breaking for the whole family and the Church, he was raised in the Church and attended every week until he was 20 years old and now he's been gone for 2 years and he has distanced himself all the more as time goes by.

The pastors other children have all been baptized and they are all committed to the life of the Church and following Christ.

The pastor expressed his grief to me and said he would be very sad to go to heaven knowing his son won't be going there with the rest of the family. I tried to comfort him by saying that God will wipe the memory of that son from your mind and it will be like he never existed and you will be completely happy.
He wasn't thrilled to hear my words of encouragement but God can do just that and the person will be filled with happiness and joy, with no memory of those who were lost.

I know it's hard for us to accept everything God does, while we use our fallen corrupt mind in this life but we will receive a perfectly sinless mind in the life to come. So God will take care of everything so we shouldn't worry about anything, just trust and obey Him.
Slayer, I thought you were pretty solid in your belief of election and adoption, and did understand that there are a lot of his elect that do not attend church at all. I think that you do believe that our fleshly nature is totally depraved and that even though we have been born of the Spirit we have not lost the presence of our fleshly nature, therefore, causing us to battle with our fleshly nature on a daily basis. Have I misjudged your thinking?
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
#26
In discussing the unbeliever who will find him/herself cast into the lake of fire, you stated:

"They do have a choice not to sin, nobody forces them. They chose to sin all by themselves, and yes not having the gift to believe the Gospel doesn't help their sinful state." (Post #14)

I then asked:

"So they do not have to suppress the truth in unrighteousness?" (Post #15)

Your response in Post #16 does not answer the question. Can you please answer the question:

The unbeliever who has a choice to not sin:
Does God provide what is needed for them to not sin
but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and sin, despite the fact that God has provided what is needed to not sin?

Very simple questions. Why will you not answer?





You do not "ascribe all power and authority to God". You do not believe the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all mankind.

God allowing mankind to reject Him does not mean "the most important decision of salvation" is left "in the hands of fallen, sinful men".

God has provided for all mankind the means to not reject Him and those who reject Him do so in spite of God providing all that is necessary. That is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Through your belief system, the unbeliever has an excuse because you believe God does not give them faith to believe.





There are just as many verses being swept under the carpet in embracing calvinism.





Again, God providing to all mankind that which is necessary to come to faith and some rejecting what God has provided does not take "the power of salvation away from God".

It is heartbreaking to me to know there are some who would reject this wonderful gift and this wonderful relationship with God. I cannot imagine the heartbreak to God, Who provided all that is necessary. He gave His Son to die on the cross. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil 2:8), and yet some, in their foolish pride and love of the temporary lusts of the flesh, throw that away with no thought of the eternal consequence of their actions.
We still believe that God made everything to be exactly as it is, He can't be almighty and have sovereignty over all things if the most important thing in our life is out of His control. We can't accept that God doesn't have control over the salvation of all those who will be saved and all who will not.

I know people are quick to jump to conclusions, that God is the author of sin and many other accusations. We don't pretend to understand why God does everything He does, all we know is what He revealed in His Word and we don't fill in any blanks with our own ideas.

We believe God created certain people without the ability to come to a saving knowledge of God and respond by believing the Gospel. Those people are carnal, they will never embrace the spiritual things of God. So God doesn't force them to sin, they sin because it gives them pleasure.

I find it amazing that a person can reject the offer of salvation and choose to go to hell instead, it defies logic but it shows that God must draw the person to Himself or they will never come of their own volition. If you really want a yes or no answer to does God create them to sin, the answer is yes He creates them with the ability to chose to sin and that's exactly what they chose to most of the time.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
#27
Slayer, I thought you were pretty solid in your belief of election and adoption, and did understand that there are a lot of his elect that do not attend church at all. I think that you do believe that our fleshly nature is totally depraved and that even though we have been born of the Spirit we have not lost the presence of our fleshly nature, therefore, causing us to battle with our fleshly nature on a daily basis. Have I misjudged your thinking?
The elect person might live out most of his life, before he is converted. Nobody knows when a person may be converted, it could be at the age of 8 or 80.
Yes I believe we continue to fight our corrupt fleshy nature, after our conversion and until we die.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#28
In discussing the unbeliever who will find him/herself cast into the lake of fire, you stated:

"They do have a choice not to sin, nobody forces them. They chose to sin all by themselves, and yes not having the gift to believe the Gospel doesn't help their sinful state." (Post #14)

I then asked:

"So they do not have to suppress the truth in unrighteousness?" (Post #15)

Your response in Post #16 does not answer the question. Can you please answer the question:

The unbeliever who has a choice to not sin:
Does God provide what is needed for them to not sin
but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and sin, despite the fact that God has provided what is needed to not sin?

Very simple questions. Why will you not answer?





You do not "ascribe all power and authority to God". You do not believe the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all mankind.

God allowing mankind to reject Him does not mean "the most important decision of salvation" is left "in the hands of fallen, sinful men".

God has provided for all mankind the means to not reject Him and those who reject Him do so in spite of God providing all that is necessary. That is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Through your belief system, the unbeliever has an excuse because you believe God does not give them faith to believe.





There are just as many verses being swept under the carpet in embracing calvinism.





Again, God providing to all mankind that which is necessary to come to faith and some rejecting what God has provided does not take "the power of salvation away from God".

It is heartbreaking to me to know there are some who would reject this wonderful gift and this wonderful relationship with God. I cannot imagine the heartbreak to God, Who provided all that is necessary. He gave His Son to die on the cross. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil 2:8), and yet some, in their foolish pride and love of the temporary lusts of the flesh, throw that away with no thought of the eternal consequence of their actions.
I believe your thinking is just like those Israel brethren who have a zeal of God, which is evidence that they are children of God, but not according to knowledge. They are holding on to the old law of works and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works. They do not have a solid understanding of the law of grace. Paul, in the rest of chapter 10 instructs them what they can do to be saved ( delivered ) from that lack of knowledge by being taught eternal deliverance, ( salvation ) by the grace of God and not by their works.
 
Mar 14, 2011
59,849
7,232
113
#29
Universalists believe all people will be saved. They often complain against the contrary teaching that people go to hell by posing questions such as:
  • "Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?"
  • "If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"
Of course, these kinds of questions are the wrong ones to ask. What they are doing is using emotionalism to sway someone's beliefs. What they should be asking are questions like these:
  • "What does the Bible teach about damnation?"
  • "Does the Bible tell us if most will be lost or saved?"
  • "Does it tell us that all will be saved?

  • "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
  • "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

  • "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"

  • And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

  • "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27)
So how can anyone say God has offered salvation to everyone, the above scriptures make it clear that God has chosen to save some and not all mankind as many believe. What about the Reprobate.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Do the reprobate choose to be reprobate or has God given them over to their sin nature to continuously sin and deprive themselves of receiving the salvation which Jesus purchased on the cross. It sounds like God didn't give them the gift of faith, so they can't respond by believing the Gospel.
If this is true, God is not the loving God he claims to be, period.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
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#30
The elect person might live out most of his life, before he is converted. Nobody knows when a person may be converted, it could be at the age of 8 or 80.
Yes I believe we continue to fight our corrupt fleshy nature, after our conversion and until we die.
You made mention that your pastor would hate to go to heaven and find out his son didn't make it. If the boy is of the elect he will be there and if he is not, he will not be there, and I think I remember you saying that you did not believe we could judge who the elect are. It says that we shall know them by their fruits, but sometimes that would be a hard decision considering their fleshly nature. I do not believe that a child of God has to be converted to understand the truth to go to heaven.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
#31
If this is true, God is not the loving God he claims to be, period.
I beg to differ, we believe that God is the loving God He said He is because He should have damned the whole of mankind because we all sinned and fell short of the glory of God.

So it's absolutely amazing that God chose to save anyone, the fact that He chose to save a large number for His own Glory shows that He is indeed a loving God.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,001
1,376
113
#32
My conversion and realization that I am one of Gods elect was a long process. I made a profession of faith when I was 12 and attended Church and tried to live the Christian life until the age of 17 then I turned my back on God and lived as a heathen until I was 29.

Then one day I got on my knees and repented and asked Jesus to come back and be the Lord of my life, He obliged and changed my life. I back slid a few times and went back into the world to get my fill, but I repented and came back again.

Looking back now, I can see that it was God who drew me back to Himself every time. I believe God allowed me to go back into the world because I wasn't ready to fully commit, but the point is God never lost me. If God wasn't drawing me back to Himself, I would have stayed in the world like 95% of my friends did.

My friends couldn't understand why I left the party scene and the beautiful girls and drugs, to go and join a bunch of boring Christians. I wished that I never left the Church in the first place, but looking back it seems like it was all meant to be that way. Now the world is not attractive anymore, it has nothing to offer. All I want to do is serve the Lord, in whatever way He leads me to.
So you did make a free will decision to come to Christ. From 12-17 you were being trained and you returned because of the foundation laid years before.

Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
#33
You made mention that your pastor would hate to go to heaven and find out his son didn't make it. If the boy is of the elect he will be there and if he is not, he will not be there, and I think I remember you saying that you did not believe we could judge who the elect are. It says that we shall know them by their fruits, but sometimes that would be a hard decision considering their fleshly nature. I do not believe that a child of God has to be converted to understand the truth to go to heaven.
The pastor was only expressing his human emotions by thinking about being in heaven if his son doesn't end up there as well. He wasn't saying his son won't yet be converted and believe, he was just imagining how he would feel if his son never made it to heaven.

We most certainly can't know for sure who the elect are, only God knows that. Someone could be a murderer and convert in his old age, so we can't judge that aspect of the person. But we should judge people by their fruits as it relates to our dealings with the person, like we wouldn't trust someone who has a reputation as an adulterer and fornicator to be alone with our girlfriend or wife.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
#34
So you did make a free will decision to come to Christ. From 12-17 you were being trained and you returned because of the foundation laid years before.

Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes I believe God lead some people to ask my parents if they could take me to Sunday school, and my parents were happy for me to go so I got to hear the Gospel for the first time and I believed it.

I do believe that the things I heard at Sunday school caused me to repent and come back to the Lord after 12 years of sinful living. And then the backsliding was terrible as well, I still suffer the spiritual scars of a life enslaved to sin.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#35
Universalists believe all people will be saved. They often complain against the contrary teaching that people go to hell by posing questions such as:
  • "Do you really believe that God is going to lose most of mankind in hell and that only a few are going to be saved?"
  • "If most go to hell, doesn't that mean that Satan wins since God only gets a few compared to the majority who are lost?"
Of course, these kinds of questions are the wrong ones to ask. What they are doing is using emotionalism to sway someone's beliefs. What they should be asking are questions like these:
  • "What does the Bible teach about damnation?"
  • "Does the Bible tell us if most will be lost or saved?"
  • "Does it tell us that all will be saved?

  • "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
  • "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

  • "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"

  • And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

  • "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27)
So how can anyone say God has offered salvation to everyone, the above scriptures make it clear that God has chosen to save some and not all mankind as many believe. What about the Reprobate.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Do the reprobate choose to be reprobate or has God given them over to their sin nature to continuously sin and deprive themselves of receiving the salvation which Jesus purchased on the cross. It sounds like God didn't give them the gift of faith, so they can't respond by believing the Gospel.
You and I must have a different view of the amount that will populate heaven. Israel is a type representing the elect family of God. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. A lot of the scriptures, especially in the new testament that are talking about Israel have reference to Jacob or God's elect, therefore the number that will inter into heaven are counted as the stars in heaven and the sand of the sea, more than can be numbered. In reference to the two gates in Matt 7, the people that go into both gates are the children of God. The wide gate are those children who are preaching and teaching false doctrines involving eternal salvation by works, and those children of God who go in the strait gate are the children that have been converted to know the truth of Jesus's doctrine. The LIFE that they find is one of no fear, piece, contentment and joy and that life is enjoyed as they live their lives out on this earth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#36
Please provide your definition of predestination.

Thank you.





How does the "one has the gift which causes him to respond by believing the Gospel when he hears it" get this "gift"?





In Psalms 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven to see ifHow can they choose to not sin if God decides that He will not give "the gift which causes him to respond by believing when he hears it"? They have no choice but sin.





How does God "choose" to save some? What is His criteria for saving some?
Pardon my interruption, but I would like to inject my understanding on some of your questions. What is God's criteria for saving some? Psalms 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven upon the children of men; to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no not one. God did not have to look down, because, by his foreknowledge, before he formed the world, he knew that the children of men would do nothing that would be good, that is why he choose some so that he would have a people to praise him, Psalms 117:1-2, and predetermined them to be conformed to the image of his Son and instructed his Son to pay the price for those that he had choosen to be adopted as his sons by his sacrifice for their sins to God (not to man ) for God's acceptance ( not for man's acceptance ). I think I just gave you the definition of predestination. How does the natural man who does not have the ability to choose spiritual things, get the ability? Eph 2:5, Even when the natural man was spiritually dead in sins, God quickened ( made spiritually alive ) him together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved). I's as simple as that! The natural did not have to do anything to be saved. All that was needed was for him to have been included in God's choice of his elect.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#37
In discussing the unbeliever who will find him/herself cast into the lake of fire, you stated:

"They do have a choice not to sin, nobody forces them. They chose to sin all by themselves, and yes not having the gift to believe the Gospel doesn't help their sinful state." (Post #14)

I then asked:

"So they do not have to suppress the truth in unrighteousness?" (Post #15)

Your response in Post #16 does not answer the question. Can you please answer the question:

The unbeliever who has a choice to not sin:
Does God provide what is needed for them to not sin
but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and sin, despite the fact that God has provided what is needed to not sin?

Very simple questions. Why will you not answer?





You do not "ascribe all power and authority to God". You do not believe the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to cover all mankind.

God allowing mankind to reject Him does not mean "the most important decision of salvation" is left "in the hands of fallen, sinful men".

God has provided for all mankind the means to not reject Him and those who reject Him do so in spite of God providing all that is necessary. That is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Through your belief system, the unbeliever has an excuse because you believe God does not give them faith to believe.





There are just as many verses being swept under the carpet in embracing calvinism.





Again, God providing to all mankind that which is necessary to come to faith and some rejecting what God has provided does not take "the power of salvation away from God".

It is heartbreaking to me to know there are some who would reject this wonderful gift and this wonderful relationship with God. I cannot imagine the heartbreak to God, Who provided all that is necessary. He gave His Son to die on the cross. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil 2:8), and yet some, in their foolish pride and love of the temporary lusts of the flesh, throw that away with no thought of the eternal consequence of their actions.
God and Christ has all power and does accomplishes all his will. Dan 4:35, All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If it had been God's will to save all mankind, as you say, he would have done it, because he accomplishes "ALL" his will, and man can not stop him. God is not mourning because he can not save all mankind. Do you see how weak you make God, and how you limit his power?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#38
I beg to differ, we believe that God is the loving God He said He is because He should have damned the whole of mankind because we all sinned and fell short of the glory of God.

So it's absolutely amazing that God chose to save anyone, the fact that He chose to save a large number for His own Glory shows that He is indeed a loving God.
Well you just told us the major issue. You have God, who claims he is a God who loves unconditionally (agape) yet does not allow all these people an opportunity to be saved, even though in reality, they are no worse than the ones that for whatever reason he chose to save, ie,

You can not go to the world. to the heavenly creation (angels fallen or not) or fight the lie of satan, and claim to be a God who loves unconditionally. Yet pics and chooses who he will save and who he will not. yet at the same time, does not even give these who will not be saved the opportunity to be saved

No one will believe you, and if you plan on using that to prevent any future rebellion. You will have failed. because there will always be a question of your character, are you truly a loving God or not?

so my point stands,
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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#39
You and I must have a different view of the amount that will populate heaven. Israel is a type representing the elect family of God. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. A lot of the scriptures, especially in the new testament that are talking about Israel have reference to Jacob or God's elect, therefore the number that will inter into heaven are counted as the stars in heaven and the sand of the sea, more than can be numbered. In reference to the two gates in Matt 7, the people that go into both gates are the children of God. The wide gate are those children who are preaching and teaching false doctrines involving eternal salvation by works, and those children of God who go in the strait gate are the children that have been converted to know the truth of Jesus's doctrine. The LIFE that they find is one of no fear, piece, contentment and joy and that life is enjoyed as they live their lives out on this earth.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the two different people described in Matt 7, are both the children of God.

The scripture describes those who enter by the wide gate as going to destruction. All true believers have been a part of Israel, right up to our time so that amounts to a great number when you consider that God has had people in ever generation since the beginning of the world. So when you look at them as a whole they do appear as the stars in heaven.

Matt 7 describes the number of those who enter by the straight gate as small in comparison to those who enter by the wide gate, but when you consider this has been going on for 6000 years the narrow gate has seen billions enter by it. So it's still a great total number but still small in comparison to those who went into destruction by the wide gate.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#40
We still believe that God made everything to be exactly as it is, He can't be almighty and have sovereignty over all things if the most important thing in our life is out of His control. We can't accept that God doesn't have control over the salvation of all those who will be saved and all who will not.
It appears to me that you do not believe God is almighty and you believe the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, was insufficient to save all mankind.


You can accept that the precious blood of Jesus was insufficient to cover all, but you cannot accept that God wants all mankind to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth and He allows mankind to reject Him? Seriously?




Slayer said:
I know people are quick to jump to conclusions, that God is the author of sin and many other accusations. We don't pretend to understand why God does everything He does, all we know is what He revealed in His Word and we don't fill in any blanks with our own ideas.
Believing God's desire is that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth is not "our own ideas". It is written straight in Scripture. You choose to reject that truth.





Slayer said:
We believe God created certain people without the ability to come to a saving knowledge of God and respond by believing the Gospel. Those people are carnal, they will never embrace the spiritual things of God. So God doesn't force them to sin, they sin because it gives them pleasure.
We've gone over this before. You want me to believe God does not give them what they need to overcome the sin, tells them they are without excuse for not overcoming, and then condemns them to the lake of fire for their inability to overcome.


You also want me to believe the "elect" can (and does) sin to their heart's content even though they have been given what they need to overcome the sin. But, by golly, they're "elect" so God just overlooks the sin.




Slayer said:
I find it amazing that a person can reject the offer of salvation and choose to go to hell instead, it defies logic but it shows that God must draw the person to Himself or they will never come of their own volition. If you really want a yes or no answer to does God create them to sin, the answer is yes He creates them with the ability to chose to sin and that's exactly what they chose to most of the time.
All – believer and unbeliever alike – choose to sin. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that the believer has not restrained the truth concerning the Gospel. That truth hit his or her heart and God brings increase.


The unbeliever restrains the truth concerning the Gospel, does not afford him/herself of what God has bestowed upon all mankind, and ends up in the lake of fire because of his/her rejection of God's unspeakable gift.