Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
If Jesus died for all men, as you say, then why are not all men going to heaven, because Jesus said that all he died for that he would not lose any of them but raise all of them up at the last day (John 6:38).? Yes, he died for the ungodly, and that was his elect who were ungodly before he regenerated them (Eph 2:5). Yes, all have sinned, and that is why God chose some before the foundation of the world, otherwise we would all have gone to hell. God chastens those that he loves, but he does not chasten those that he does not love(Ps 73:5, They(talking about the wicked) are not PLAGUED=divinely punished as other men.
Hi ForestGC,

I have read some of your post saying that you have in some differing points with Slayer. In the first place it seems you are using the KJB as your scriptural references and I am glad for that because, I too used and believe KJB is the pure words of God in the English language. Second, I am not against biblical reasoning since the bible says we have to “Prove all things” and as Paul did that “he reasoned out of the scriptures” Acts 17:2 hence, everything must be based on the Bible. No scriptural support simply means our statement is void and a mere vain jangling. Now if we really wanted a real deal then let’s deal with the scriptures.

God bless
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
If Jesus died for all men, as you say,
Well, it is the scriptures that says Jesus died for all men, God’s grace of Redemption at Christ Expense actually “hath appeared to all men.” Further, the very reason Jesus died for ALL men because as the scripture has concluded in Galatians 3:22 that “All under sinned” and who is that ALL? Romans 3:9 says both Jews and Gentiles with no single exception were all under sin. The propitiations of sins is not only to the elect as per Calvinist says but also to the whole world. 1 John 2:2 yet t my point is that I did not say it, the Bible says it.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
If Jesus died for all men, as you say, then why are not all men going to heaven, .
As to the underlined, what really you are tackling is “Irresistible grace” per Calvinism. Then why not all men are going to heaven? The scripture of truth says in John 5:40 “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” In Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” Those who are not going to heaven are as of the Proverbs 1:24 says” Because I have called, and ye refused;”
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
If Jesus died for all men, as you say, then why are not all men going to heaven, because Jesus said that all he died for that he would not lose any of them but raise all of them up at the last day (John 6:38).?
As to the underlined, I would quote the context beginning from John 6:35 for references:

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Using parallel verses in the context, line upon line, the will of the Father is that everyone which sees our Lord Jesus and those that believes on him may have everlasting life. Strictly the words were spoken to the Jews who murmured at the sayings of Jesus. Hence, Christ is not speaking to those so called “elect only” as per Calvinism. If the context may meant to be the JEWS as elect only then therefore the Bible is also not true since Jesus died both to the Jew and the Gentiles. The plausible meaning of the text therefore is that Christ died for ALL men.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
Yes, he died for the ungodly, and that was his elect who were ungodly before he regenerated them (Eph 2:5). Yes, all have sinned, and that is why God chose some before the foundation of the world, otherwise we would all have gone to hell.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) The letter was written specifically to the Ephesians (Gentile) believers who were once were dead in sins. Again, Paul says “we” in reference to the Jews were both quickened (made alive) together with the Ephesians believers for “by grace ye are saved” . So that Jews and Gentiles alike as the scripture concluded that “ALL under sin”.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
Hi ForestGC,

I have read some of your post saying that you have in some differing points with Slayer. In the first place it seems you are using the KJB as your scriptural references and I am glad for that because, I too used and believe KJB is the pure words of God in the English language. Second, I am not against biblical reasoning since the bible says we have to “Prove all things” and as Paul did that “he reasoned out of the scriptures” Acts 17:2 hence, everything must be based on the Bible. No scriptural support simply means our statement is void and a mere vain jangling. Now if we really wanted a real deal then let’s deal with the scriptures.

God bless
It is my goal to use scripture to back up my statements. If I have failed to do that, please point it out to me. I believe this forum was set up to discuss the truths that are in the scriptures and not man's thoughts only.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) The letter was written specifically to the Ephesians (Gentile) believers who were once were dead in sins. Again, Paul says “we” in reference to the Jews were both quickened (made alive) together with the Ephesians believers for “by grace ye are saved” . So that Jews and Gentiles alike as the scripture concluded that “ALL under sin”.
I am trying to understand what you are trying to correct me on. If it is that, I do not believe that ALL were not under sin, I assure you that was not my intention. By Adam's fall, we all died to sin. Psalms 53:2-3 - God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This is why God choose a people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and secured their eternal deliverance by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for their sins.(John 6:39). The elect is not inclusive only to the Gentiles. They include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9). If this has not cleared up our misunderstanding, please let me know.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
As to the underlined, I would quote the context beginning from John 6:35 for references:

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Using parallel verses in the context, line upon line, the will of the Father is that everyone which sees our Lord Jesus and those that believes on him may have everlasting life. Strictly the words were spoken to the Jews who murmured at the sayings of Jesus. Hence, Christ is not speaking to those so called “elect only” as per Calvinism. If the context may meant to be the JEWS as elect only then therefore the Bible is also not true since Jesus died both to the Jew and the Gentiles. The plausible meaning of the text therefore is that Christ died for ALL men.
If you will take in consideration 1 Cor 2:14 and understand that the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not "come to him" or "believe" on him. The only way that one can respond to any request or command of a spiritual God or anything of a spiritual nature is after he has been regenerated as explained in Eph 2 especially verse 5. You will notice that the natural man is still "dead in sins" at the time of his regeneration, unable to believe or respond to a spiritual call. It is by God's grace, not of man's works (Eph 2:9). Christ died only for those that his Father gave him (John 6:39) and they were is elect from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation (Rev). I love to discuss the scripture , not that I will cause anyone to understand me, because I am a firm believer that the Holy Spirit within the child of God will have to reveal truths to him and not man, but because it keeps the scriptures fresh on my mind. I believe that Jesus did not die for all mankind.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,249
668
113
By Adam's fall, we all died to sin.
Okay so are you saying that the following (verse 10) refers to Adam or to Christ?

Romans 6 -

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


You keep saying "died TO sin" (applying this to "all" [in Adam])
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
Okay so are you saying that the following (verse 10) refers to Adam or to Christ?

Romans 6 -

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


You keep saying "died TO sin" (applying this to "all" [in Adam])
I am not sure I understand your reasoning. All mankind are born into this world "dead in sins" because of the sin of Adam and Christ died unto the sins, of those that God gave him, once and there will be no more sacrifice for sins. Romans 6:10 refers to Christ, so what is your point? 1 Cor 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all (of the elect, because scriptures prove that all mankind will not be made alive, regenerated.) be made alive. Matt 20:28 says that Christ came to give his life for many, not for all mankind. Also in Matt 26:28.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
Mar 23, 2016
3,167
768
113
In 1 John 2:2, is referring to the world of the elect
From Thayer's:

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27 f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536));




ForestGreenCook said:
otherwise it will not harmonize with many other scriptures
The verse harmonizes perfectly with all Scripture.

It is your dogma that suffers when the full light of Scripture shines upon it.



 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
I am not sure I understand your reasoning. All mankind are born into this world "dead in sins" because of the sin of Adam and Christ died unto the sins, of those that God gave him, once and there will be no more sacrifice for sins. Romans 6:10 refers to Christ, so what is your point? 1 Cor 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all (of the elect, because scriptures prove that all mankind will not be made alive, regenerated.) be made alive. Matt 20:28 says that Christ came to give his life for many, not for all mankind. Also in Matt 26:28.
Christ died for the elect which includes people from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation (Rev 5:9), but not for all mankind.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
I am trying to understand what you are trying to correct me on. If it is that, I do not believe that ALL were not under sin, I assure you that was not my intention. By Adam's fall, we all died to sin. Psalms 53:2-3 - God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This is why God choose a people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and secured their eternal deliverance by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for their sins.(John 6:39). The elect is not inclusive only to the Gentiles. They include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9). If this has not cleared up our misunderstanding, please let me know.
Thank you and if “ALL died to sin and “…so is everyone is gone back; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” then this simply means the “ALL” means “ALL” and not “SOME” which literally the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men and not to SOME men. This grace of God is in the personhood of Christ who is “…full of grace and truth…”John 1:14

Well, I am not trying to get you into trouble of the word elect as of this time since we are still establishing the “ALL” to mean “ALL” with no exception which you agreed except in my view that you have limited what the scriptures says in regards to the works of Christ on his redeeming act on the cross of Calvary. Calvinism per se means or this refers to a “limited atonement" or that what you said for the “elect” though this include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation and thus in sense may exclude the “non elect” from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

My view on this so far as per the Bible says that Christ died for ALL men. Thus the scriptures says in 1 John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” It is to be noted that if the word “our” refers to the “elect” as Calvinist normally infer then I John 2:2 simply means not only for the so called “elect” but the “whole world” with no single exception meaning from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation is the scope of God’s love.

You further said “This is why God choose a people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)”. I do believe with all my heart and as the scriptures says that the very reason why God gave his only begotten Son and died on the cross of Calvary because he is not willing that any should perish 2 Peter 3:9.

The choosing of God is not the people as you are trying to point out but his acts to what he will do with these people. I would literally say people were not created before the foundation of the world which means God cannot choose you before the foundation of the world. Can you tell me what’s wrong with this statement? I already posted my stand on Ephesian 1:4 in response to Slayer. I even told him to point what’s wrong with mine and point it by point yet it was unanswered.

God bless.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,556
497
83
If you will take in consideration 1 Cor 2:14 and understand that the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not "come to him" or "believe" on him. The only way that one can respond to any request or command of a spiritual God or anything of a spiritual nature is after he has been regenerated as explained in Eph 2 especially verse 5. You will notice that the natural man is still "dead in sins" at the time of his regeneration, unable to believe or respond to a spiritual call. It is by God's grace, not of man's works (Eph 2:9). Christ died only for those that his Father gave him (John 6:39) and they were is elect from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation (Rev). I love to discuss the scripture , not that I will cause anyone to understand me, because I am a firm believer that the Holy Spirit within the child of God will have to reveal truths to him and not man, but because it keeps the scriptures fresh on my mind. I believe that Jesus did not die for all mankind.
May I remind that when the Bible says “death”, “dead” simply means “separation” and that we are “separated because of sin” Isa. 59:2. I am not a fond for a belief on the annihilation of the dead so that the dead knows nothing, response to nothing, or desire nothing. The rich man being in torment in hell even prayed to father Abraham to send messenger to warned them on his hellish estate. So 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not apply on the situation.

I have responded to your other thread taking the very example of the Eunuch, possessing and reading copies of scriptures though he is not able to understand yet the point is why he had such very important scroll that pertains to spiritual things that he should not have not in the first place because his spirit is dead (Acts 8:27-32). Well, the conviction of the Holy Spirit plays the key role in regenerating man and it is the scriptures that is quick and powerful that makes one alive if one respond by hearing the words of God.

Is there such impossibility with God? No my God is not the God of impossibility, he is able to save that comes unto him by Christ Hebrews 7:25. John 6:39 is fully explained by the scriptures and that I believe that Christ died not for the elect only, he died for all men.

Isah. 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

God bless
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,245
2,404
113
Do the reprobate choose to be reprobate or has God given them over to their sin nature to continuously sin and deprive themselves of receiving the salvation which Jesus purchased on the cross. It sounds like God didn't give them the gift of faith, so they can't respond by believing the Gospel.
You quoted from Romans 1 which answers your question. Once a certain point of depravity has been reached by the individual, God gives them over further and further into it. Progressively getting worse.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,245
2,404
113
In 1 John 2:2, is referring to the world of the elect, otherwise it will not harmonize with many other scriptures. Christ died for MANY, not ALL mankind Matt 20:28 and Matt 26:28.
Much like Adam's fall only made MANY sinners?

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

No that idea does not work. Christ died for ALL, the world, every man (hebrews 2:9, john 3:16, 1 john 2:2).

If Christ did not die for all, you cannot preach the gospel with sincerity. You cannot proclaim on a town market "Jesus died for us (or for you)!" because you simply don't know if they are elect or not.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
Thank you and if “ALL died to sin and “…so is everyone is gone back; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” then this simply means the “ALL” means “ALL” and not “SOME” which literally the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men and not to SOME men. This grace of God is in the personhood of Christ who is “…full of grace and truth…”John 1:14

Well, I am not trying to get you into trouble of the word elect as of this time since we are still establishing the “ALL” to mean “ALL” with no exception which you agreed except in my view that you have limited what the scriptures says in regards to the works of Christ on his redeeming act on the cross of Calvary. Calvinism per se means or this refers to a “limited atonement" or that what you said for the “elect” though this include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation and thus in sense may exclude the “non elect” from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

My view on this so far as per the Bible says that Christ died for ALL men. Thus the scriptures says in 1 John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” It is to be noted that if the word “our” refers to the “elect” as Calvinist normally infer then I John 2:2 simply means not only for the so called “elect” but the “whole world” with no single exception meaning from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation is the scope of God’s love.

You further said “This is why God choose a people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)”. I do believe with all my heart and as the scriptures says that the very reason why God gave his only begotten Son and died on the cross of Calvary because he is not willing that any should perish 2 Peter 3:9.

The choosing of God is not the people as you are trying to point out but his acts to what he will do with these people. I would literally say people were not created before the foundation of the world which means God cannot choose you before the foundation of the world. Can you tell me what’s wrong with this statement? I already posted my stand on Ephesian 1:4 in response to Slayer. I even told him to point what’s wrong with mine and point it by point yet it was unanswered.

God bless.
I appreciate your dedication in trying to learn the truth in God's word. I think that we never quit learning if we keep studying. I believe the scriptures teach that God is all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present, and completely sovereign in eternally saving man. God had foreknowledge, even before he formed the world, what the actions of man would be. The scriptures say, and I am sorry I did not take time to look the scripture up, God knows the beginning from the end. I have a lot of questions to God that I do not think he answers. He says "his ways are higher than our ways and past finding out". John 1:13 - them that believe in verse 12 were in verse 13 not born by the will of man, but of God, because according to 1 Cor 2:14 the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot believe in spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him. In reference to 1 John 2:2 - Heb 12:6 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgest every son whom he receiveth. If he loved all mankind, it would seem logical that he would chasten all mankind. Ps 73:5 - They (the wicked) are not PLAGUED= Greek translation= divinely punished, as other men. The word "WORLD" in 1 John 2:2 would mean the elect world, (world of believers only). The same will apply in John 3:16 and in several other scriptures for the word "world". In reference to 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (forgiving us our sins when we repent). We have to go back to 2 Peter 1:1 to establish who Peter is talking to, which is to them that have obtained like precious faith. When we turn away from God to the things of the world in some scriptures we are considered to be "dead" to a fellowship with God. Peter is giving these people who have like precious faith a warning to repent when they lust after the things of the world, even including himself by using the word "us-ward" so that they would not perish "be dead to their fellowship with God. I do not know if I have answered your question to Slayer about Eph 1:4 or not, if not, let me know.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,120
358
83
May I remind that when the Bible says “death”, “dead” simply means “separation” and that we are “separated because of sin” Isa. 59:2. I am not a fond for a belief on the annihilation of the dead so that the dead knows nothing, response to nothing, or desire nothing. The rich man being in torment in hell even prayed to father Abraham to send messenger to warned them on his hellish estate. So 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not apply on the situation.

I have responded to your other thread taking the very example of the Eunuch, possessing and reading copies of scriptures though he is not able to understand yet the point is why he had such very important scroll that pertains to spiritual things that he should not have not in the first place because his spirit is dead (Acts 8:27-32). Well, the conviction of the Holy Spirit plays the key role in regenerating man and it is the scriptures that is quick and powerful that makes one alive if one respond by hearing the words of God.

Is there such impossibility with God? No my God is not the God of impossibility, he is able to save that comes unto him by Christ Hebrews 7:25. John 6:39 is fully explained by the scriptures and that I believe that Christ died not for the elect only, he died for all men.

Isah. 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

God bless
The word "dead" in Eph 2:5 by Strong's translation "nekros" means "from an apparently primary nekus (a corps), dead (literally or figuratively, also as noun). KJV--dead. The same meaning in 1 Cor 15:21 - For since by man came "death", by man came also the resurrection of the "dead". and in Eph 2:1, also in Col2:13 and many more In reference to Acts 8:27-32 - My point is "that the Eunuch was on his way to Jerusalem to WORSHIP. The natural man would not have been going to worship a spiritual God that he does not believe in. God is a Spirit and the natural man cannot discern spiritual things. I understand your desire to allow the natural man to discern spiritual things to uphold your theory God loving all mankind and Christ dying for all mankind, but I do not think your interpretation of the scriptures will harmonize with all scriptures.