Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
You are as sad as King Agrippa. The gospel is right before you yet you cannot receive it. How sad.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I hope you are not shedding too many tears over me. You have said on numeral posts that you think that I am a lost soul. That is because you are not understanding the scriptures correctly. In my view of the scriptures, you are my brother in Christ and we will see each other in heaven.
 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
You are not as the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 that has never been regenerated.
The born again believer can behave in the same manner "as the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 that has never been regenerated". That was the issue Paul addressed in the section of Scripture.

The believers in the church at Corinth were carnal and behaved according to the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven". That is what the word psyxikós (natural) means.

Perhaps you are confusing the Greek word psyxikós which means

the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven"

with the Greek word physikós which means

natural, describing the behavior of an unregenerate person, i.e. a nature lacking divine transformation (salvation)

Both Greek words (psyxikós and physikós) are translated into our English word "natural", but there are different nuances in the Greek.

The word psyxikós used in 1 Cor 2:14 is not the same as the word physikós. While the words may appear the same when reading in our English text, there is a difference when we look at the Greek. And God instructs us to be careful in our right dividing of His Word so that we do not follow a dogma never intended by Him.


 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
Have you read Eph 1? Because Eph 1:13 tells us:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We trust when we hear the gospel of salvation.

We are sealed when we believe.

And the sealing with that holy Spirit of promise is what quickens us (makes us alive) ... Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ).


 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,435
969
113
I hope you are not shedding too many tears over me. You have said on numeral posts that you think that I am a lost soul. That is because you are not understanding the scriptures correctly. In my view of the scriptures, you are my brother in Christ and we will see each other in heaven.
The Pharisees had similar false ideas regarding their standing with God. You must know Christ on a personal level not only on a corporate level.

As long as you teach a false soteriology I will continue to implore you to turn from false doctrine to the perfect gospel of Jesus Christ. Whosoever will includes you if you will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
23,256
1,209
113
Regarding the question in the Title:

Yes
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
Do you see what you have done to Romans 1? Because in your doctrine God does not allow man to reject Him by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, you now claim that the verses from Rom 1:18 through Rom 1:31 are really descriptive of the "disobedient children of God".

So now you're telling me that these verses are not directed to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God. Rather, these verses describe the behavior of the "disobedient children of God" and even though they're "disobedient", they are "elect" and not destined for the lake of fire:

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


All because you cannot allow natural man to acknowledge that there is a Creator through observation of the natural, physical creation, and then to further suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject God.
I do understand that you have to make the natural man, void of the Spirit, be able to understand spiritual things, in order to uphold your theory that man has a part in his eternal salvation and can stop God from saving him eternally, even though God says that he accomplishes all of his will, and none can stay his hand. You are limiting the Power of a God who has all power do do his will.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
No the "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 does not have to be "ALL ELECT MEN".

God can (and does) allow mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God can (and does) remain sovereign even though some men reject





The only thing that does not harmonize with Scripture is your faulty doctrine.





mmm-hmmmm. So rather than allow mankind to reject Him as man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, we'll just teach that Rom 1:18-32 is really a description of "the disobedient child of God" as you claim in your posts #162 and #166. :rolleyes:

Rom 1:18-32 does not really describe the unbeliever who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, rejects God, and ends up in the lake of fire.
Unless you first understand the depravity of man, you will never be able to understand the grace of God.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
Have you read Eph 1? Because Eph 1:13 tells us:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We trust when we hear the gospel of salvation.

We are sealed when we believe.

And the sealing with that holy Spirit of promise is what quickens us (makes us alive) ... Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ).
We did not hear the spiritual gospel until after we were regenerated, made spiritually alive,(Eph 2:5), after hearing the gospel we came to believed, upon believing, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is a down payment (earnest of our inheritance until Christ comes and takes his elect home). We were chosen by God, we were justified (saved eternally) by Jesus on the cross, we were made spiritually alive by regeneration, we were given a down payment (earnest) informing us that we are secure in our inheritance.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
The Pharisees had similar false ideas regarding their standing with God. You must know Christ on a personal level not only on a corporate level.

As long as you teach a false soteriology I will continue to implore you to turn from false doctrine to the perfect gospel of Jesus Christ. Whosoever will includes you if you will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So, Roger, do you think that I am "staying God's hand", when he says that "none can stay his hand?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
63
Unless you first understand the depravity of man, you will never be able to understand the grace of God.
1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who are the "all men" in verse 1? Are kings and all that are in authority included in the "all men"? Who are the "all men" in verse 4? Are all kings and all men in authority saved?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who are the "all men" in verse 1? Are kings and all that are in authority included in the "all men"? Who are the "all men" in verse 4? Are all kings and all men in authority saved?
Salvation, save, saved, according to the Greek is "a deliverance". There is a deliverance here in this wold when the regenerated child of God "comes unto a knowledge of the truth". The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14 cannot come unto the knowledge of the spiritual truth, until he has been regenerated and given the Spirit. We are to pray that people who are in power to govern us will make the right choices.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
910
293
63
Salvation, save, saved, according to the Greek is "a deliverance". There is a deliverance here in this wold when the regenerated child of God "comes unto a knowledge of the truth". The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14 cannot come unto the knowledge of the spiritual truth, until he has been regenerated and given the Spirit. We are to pray that people who are in power to govern us will make the right choices.
1 corinthiians 2:14 must be your favorite bible verse. You repeat it all the time, and use it to "refute" 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

Have you ever considered the POSSIBILITY that your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 could be false?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
1 corinthiians 2:14 must be your favorite bible verse. You repeat it all the time, and use it to "refute" 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

Have you ever considered the POSSIBILITY that your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 could be false?
Let me hear your word for word interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14. Tell me what you think it means. I think that you would agree with me, that all scriptures must harmonize before you are understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught. Is that not right? Tell me how your interpretation would harmonize 1 Cor 2:14. Because my interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 does not harmonize with your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:1-4. I do understand, that in order for you to uphold your theory that man has to play a part in his eternal salvation, you must try to make the natural man have the ability to discern spiritual things. So, let's hear it.
 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
I do understand that you have to make the natural man, void of the Spirit, be able to understand spiritual things, in order to uphold your theory that man has a part in his eternal salvation and can stop God from saving him eternally, even though God says that he accomplishes all of his will, and none can stay his hand.
There you go again.

Your inability to Scripturally support your erroneous dogma does not mean I "have to make the natural man, void of the Spirit, be able to understand spiritual things" or that I "uphold [a] theory that man has a part in his eternal salvation".

Your continuous ad hominem attacks are indicative of your inability to respond to Scriptural truth.

You have not addressed the issues pointed out in my post #169. Rom 1:19-20 tells us that all mankind is able to acknowledge God's eternal power and Godhead because God has chosen to reveal His eternal power and Godhead through the natural, physical realm.

You have completely misconstrued this truth revealed in Scripture and you have believed a lie. You then have to change the meaning of Rom 1:18-32 and claim that the verses relate to the believer, those who are born again but are "disobedient children of God". And that, my friend, is simply not true.

Rom 1:18-32 reveals the unbeliever and shows us how God deals with the unbeliever.

Because the unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness (vs 18), they are unthankful and become vain in their imaginations and their foolish hearts become darkened (vs 21).

Because their foolish hearts are darkened, they profess themselves to be wise but in reality they become fools (vs 22) and they change the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man (vs 23). So God gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts (vs 24).

The unbeliever then changes the truth of God into a lie, and worships and serves the creation more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen (vs 25). For this cause God gives them up unto vile affections (vs 26).

They then burn in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error (vs 27) and because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind (vs 28).

Those verses are not indicative of the "disobedient children of God". Those verses describe the unbeliever who continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and, in so doing, steps further and further from God. God holds them as long as He can, but as shown in vss 24, 26, 28 (the "God gives them up" or "over" verses), God loosens His hold on the unbeliever at some point. He cannot hold them against their will.

These verses clearly reveal that God, in His great love and mercy, reaches out to all mankind but the unbeliever rejects God and God loosens His hold and eventually God lets them turn and walk further and further away from Him. :cry:



 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
Unless you first understand the depravity of man, you will never be able to understand the grace of God.
Since you appear to "understand the depravity of man", how about you explain "the grace of God" to us.

imho, God's grace is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that even if we do understand the depravity of man, we will never be able to fully understand His complete and utter grace, mercy, lovingkindness toward us. And what little we do realize concerning God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness is just a drop in the ocean.


 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
We did not hear the spiritual gospel until after we were regenerated, made spiritually alive,(Eph 2:5), after hearing the gospel we came to believed, upon believing, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is a down payment (earnest of our inheritance until Christ comes and takes his elect home).
Just follow what is written in Eph 1:13 without adding your preconceived notion and you’ll be fine.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,




ForestGreenCook said:
We were chosen by God, we were justified (saved eternally) by Jesus on the cross, we were made spiritually alive by regeneration, we were given a down payment (earnest) informing us that we are secure in our inheritance.
Again, according to Eph 1:13:

Heard
Trusted
Believed
Sealed


 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
63
Let me hear your word for word interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14. Tell me what you think it means. I think that you would agree with me, that all scriptures must harmonize before you are understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught. Is that not right? Tell me how your interpretation would harmonize 1 Cor 2:14. Because my interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 does not harmonize with your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:1-4. I do understand, that in order for you to uphold your theory that man has to play a part in his eternal salvation, you must try to make the natural man have the ability to discern spiritual things. So, let's hear it.
Explain how the disciples before the resurrection, before the Lord sent the comforter...explain how they understood spiritual things? What about the OT saints who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who were not regenerated yet?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
Since you appear to "understand the depravity of man", how about you explain "the grace of God" to us.

imho, God's grace is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that even if we do understand the depravity of man, we will never be able to fully understand His complete and utter grace, mercy, lovingkindness toward us. And what little we do realize concerning God's grace, mercy, lovingkindness is just a drop in the ocean.
One thing that I do understand about God's grace, in the eternal salvation of his elect, it is totally without the help of man. God's grace does not place any requirements upon man to receive his eternal salvation.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,281
132
63
Explain how the disciples before the resurrection, before the Lord sent the comforter...explain how they understood spiritual things? What about the OT saints who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who were not regenerated yet?
In the old testament God's Spirit was said to be "upon" them. The Profits were inspired by God to announce the coming of Christ.

Just follow what is written in Eph 1:13 without adding your preconceived notion and you’ll be fine.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,





Again, according to Eph 1:13:

Heard
Trusted
Believed
Sealed
Heard,trusted,believed,sealed, are not the traits of the natural man who cannot discern spiritual things. The are the traits of the regenerated person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
Mar 23, 2016
2,428
367
83
Heard,trusted,believed,sealed, are not the traits of the natural man who cannot discern spiritual things. The are the traits of the regenerated person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
According to your statement above, a person "has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit" before he/she has "heard,trusted,believed,sealed".

It is clear from Eph 1:13 that the believer hears the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, then trusts/believes, then is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

Please provide Scripture which indicates a person "has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit" before he/she has heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.



Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

The verse clearly states ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise after ye believed.