Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Mar 14, 2011
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People seem to find it tough to understand that though no one was righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it, under the OC they were still under righteousness of obeying the law. Oh well.
They did it in the OT like we do it in the new, by seeking the things of God, by the law of love, in doing these things by nature they will not break the law

Sadly so many people think it is by obeying the law that we are obedient, that has never been true.
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
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In Acts ch15, they convened a council to decide which laws of Moses Gentiles be asked to follow, four were mentioned. In your view, did the NT church give gentiles a licence to sin?
Sin comes by lack of faith. The council was dealing with the issue of how to bring the Jewish Messiah of Israel to the nations. As this was the command of Israel from the beginning.

Again, sin comes through lack of faith. Following the law 'for righteousness sake' is not having faith in Jesus to BE your righteousness. Jesus did not lead the faithful to operate the Spirit through that which reminds you of sin. The Spirit removes sin from your being. That is it's purpose. It does not dwell within you dealing with it endlessly as if it has no power to dissolve it.

The Law reveals sin, the Spirit removes it. Which do you live by? Which is placed upon your heart?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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People seem to find it tough to understand that though no one was righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it, under the OC they were still under righteousness of obeying the law. Oh well.
You keep stating that and still don't understand the words that you speak.

If no one could be righteous from obeying the law then they couldn't be under righteousness of obeying the law.

All they could be under was Sin and Death from the law. Never Righteousness.
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
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Righteousness comes through being united with Jesus through the Spirit. No other way. This occurs for us today through faith. The same way it occurred in the time of Moses and Abraham. God commands, and you obey BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE HIS WORDS. Too many say God commands, AND YOU OBEY, because you believe his words...
 
Dec 26, 2018
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The confusion arises because people are reading from scripture that does not pertain to them, as far a the law is concerned.....everything Jesus said, pertaining to wholesome words and the doctrine of godliness are to be followed....As Paul said, but not everything he taught was for us....that creates confusion, and also creates this question by the OP....I believe God is going to be upset with those that do not except the gift of his son, and keep discussing sin and works and repentance...as though he never died....it’s not your business what stage another brother is in during his personal sanctification. Wow, does God give the increase or not? Yes! None of us do! The waterer and the planter are NOTHING!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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I believe the purpose of having the law written in our hearts is so we never forget we need God's mercy and would desire mercy for others.

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Jn.8:7

Dear Lord Jesus, help us.
If any person (human) says they love the law and try to keep it is turned, by demons, into bragging about keeping the law. It amazes me that Christians fall for such rat trap.

Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments. Christ did not add it means they are kept perfectly, demons add this to human thought.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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no Sabbath keeping involved.
If you know that God created a Sabbath, and all who own a bible know this, and purposely say God didn't do this, how can you oppose any keeping of the Sabbath by anyone and say that opposition is not sin?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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I didn't judge you sir, the word of God did.
You're getting bent out of shape because I was lamenting the fact of the creation of yet another thread, among so many, about Law vs Grace?

Seriously?
 
Dec 26, 2018
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If any person (human) says they love the law and try to keep it is turned, by demons, into bragging about keeping the law. It amazes me that Christians fall for such rat trap.

Christ said that if you love me you will keep my commandments. Christ did not add it means they are kept perfectly, demons add this to human thought.
He did say to keep it, because he was speaking to those under it..
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
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He did say to keep it, because he was speaking to those under it..
Did you fall for that? Messiah's commands were not the commands given Moses, but commands given Jesus from the Father. That all should come to him now to be saved and declared righteous. Jesus gave the law of the Spirit, not the law of Moses.

There is an instruction that comes from Jesus very mouth that all are judged by. It's the law of the Spirit. The law of sin and death, the laws given Moses all patterned and shadowed the law of the Spirit.

The instructions the Father gave Jesus that he in turn gave us, and of which we are judged by our faith in, lead to eternal life. A life in union with God through Jesus and his Spirit.

The instructions the Father gave to Moses that he in turn gave to Israel, of which they were judged by their faith in, leads to death. Why? So that God may resurrect them to newness of life!

As a seed must be planted in the ground as if dead in the grave, it will spring fourth on the day of redemption to newness of life, bearing fruit for many. The pattern persists throughout scripture. It's the heart of God to restore that which is broken. To redeem those who have been cast off. To return to his first love and marry her. As the redeemed nations rejoice and bring blessings of joy and riches beyond measure to the King of Glory. The Holy One of Israel.
 
Dec 26, 2018
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I didn't judge you sir, the word of God did.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

We are not commanded to not judge others, but to not be a HYPOCRITE while judging.
For example, if I tell you that you should do to others as you would have them do to you but fail to do the same myself, THEN God will see me as a hypocrite and judge me according to the measure I used to judge you. But if I live or practice the same as what I told you to do, then I have not sinned and God will not judge me.


God's Righteous Judgment
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Did you continue reading Romans? Keep going and make it through Romans 8, then you’ll see why this sounds so severe......this is not how it is now, under grace
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
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Did you continue reading Romans? Keep going and make it through Romans 8, then you’ll see why this sounds so severe......this is not how it is now, under grace
Oh so agree. How sad to sick yourself here and not continue on, to freedom.

'there is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus'
 
Dec 26, 2018
437
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Did you fall for that? Messiah's commands were not the commands given Moses, but commands given Jesus from the Father. That all should come to him now to be saved and declared righteous. Jesus gave the law of the Spirit, not the law of Moses.

There is an instruction that comes from Jesus very mouth that all are judged by. It's the law of the Spirit. The law of sin and death, the laws given Moses all patterned and shadowed the law of the Spirit.

The instructions the Father gave Jesus that he in turn gave us, and of which we are judged by our faith in, lead to eternal life. A life in union with God through Jesus and his Spirit.

The instructions the Father gave to Moses that he in turn gave to Israel, of which they were judged by their faith in, leads to death. Why? So that God may resurrect them to newness of life!

As a seed must be planted in the ground as if dead in the grave, it will spring fourth on the day of redemption to newness of life, bearing fruit for many. The pattern persists throughout scripture. It's the heart of God to restore that which is broken. To redeem those who have been cast off. To return to his first love and marry her. As the redeemed nations rejoice and bring blessings of joy and riches beyond measure to the King of Glory. The Holy One of Israel.
It can get confusing to anyone that doesn’t understand, Jesus was speaking to the Jews, under the law. Jesus appeared to Paul, to give us the message he intended and without a parable....the grace message was still veiled, and not revealed until Paul, as Peter started, but gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul, as he understood Paul was the chosen vessel for the gentile.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
Sin comes by lack of faith. The council was dealing with the issue of how to bring the Jewish Messiah of Israel to the nations. As this was the command of Israel from the beginning.

Again, sin comes through lack of faith. Following the law 'for righteousness sake' is not having faith in Jesus to BE your righteousness. Jesus did not lead the faithful to operate the Spirit through that which reminds you of sin. The Spirit removes sin from your being. That is it's purpose. It does not dwell within you dealing with it endlessly as if it has no power to dissolve it.

The Law reveals sin, the Spirit removes it. Which do you live by? Which is placed upon your heart?
You did not answer my question
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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113
75
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
If you are a law keeper then your Salvation DOES rest on it. You can't be under the curse and Saved simultaneously.

Obviously, if you place yourself under the curse then you don't know what the Blessing is. Because if you knew what your Blessing was you would never depart from it.

It would be utter ridiculousness for anyone to even suggest to you that you should depart from your Blessing and return to your curse.

Just how do you know what my salvation is based on? Who set you up as my judge and jury? I know how to please the God I gave my life to. He has brought me down a much different path than you. Keeping some points, as best we can, of God's law does not curse us. Be careful you don't curse yourself by claiming such.


You position seems ridiculous to me. How do you tell yourself you are any different than the world? So tell me Grandpa what do you do that is any different than what the world does? Insisting on your own way and pointing the finger at anyone that doesn't approve. :cool:
 
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
Sin comes by lack of faith. The council was dealing with the issue of how to bring the Jewish Messiah of Israel to the nations. As this was the command of Israel from the beginning.

Again, sin comes through lack of faith. Following the law 'for righteousness sake' is not having faith in Jesus to BE your righteousness. Jesus did not lead the faithful to operate the Spirit through that which reminds you of sin. The Spirit removes sin from your being. That is it's purpose. It does not dwell within you dealing with it endlessly as if it has no power to dissolve it.

The Law reveals sin, the Spirit removes it. Which do you live by? Which is placed upon your heart?
Well said!!! Amen!
 
T

Tim416

Guest
You keep stating that and still don't understand the words that you speak.

If no one could be righteous from obeying the law then they couldn't be under righteousness of obeying the law.

All they could be under was Sin and Death from the law. Never Righteousness.
Oh I do understand the words that I speak. It is because you do not understand this subject you refuse to accept what the bible plainly states concerning it. I am amazed, I have never been on any other website where people do not understand righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant. Why do you think Paul kept stressing the Christian has no righteousness of obeying the law/works of the law? It should not be hard to understand.

Here:

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one(no one) living is righteous before you Psalms143:2

Why not?

And if no one under the old covenant was under righteousness of obeying the law/not committing sin, why did Jesus need to die for our sins/give us righteousness apart from the law. According to you, they already had righteousness apart from obeying the law under the old covenant.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,252
9,909
113
75
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Righteousness comes through being united with Jesus through the Spirit. No other way. This occurs for us today through faith. The same way it occurred in the time of Moses and Abraham. God commands, and you obey BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE HIS WORDS. Too many say God commands, AND YOU OBEY, because you believe his words...


Could you clear that up a little? What are you saying here?
 
T

Tim416

Guest
If no one could be righteous from obeying the law then they couldn't be under righteousness of obeying the law.

All they could be under was Sin and Death from the law. Never Righteousness.
Very good: Sin and death through righteousness of obeying the law


Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. Rom8:1&2

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it
will never be stricken with panic.
17 I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb-line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding-place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.
Isaiah28:16-18
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
You did not answer my question
To your liking maybe. I actually gave you a whole lot more.

Do you need a yes or no answer? No. How foolish to believe our faith brings us license to sin.