Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Tim416

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To your liking maybe. I actually gave you a whole lot more.

Do you need a yes or no answer? No. How foolish to believe our faith brings us license to sin.
Let me put it this way, if Gentile converts are required to obey the whole of Moses law(that is possible to follow) then the leaders of the first century Christian church gave gentiles a licence to sin
 

WalkingTree

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It can get confusing to anyone that doesn’t understand, Jesus was speaking to the Jews, under the law. Jesus appeared to Paul, to give us the message he intended and without a parable....the grace message was still veiled, and not revealed until Paul, as Peter started, but gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul, as he understood Paul was the chosen vessel for the gentile.
I do think you're placing too much emphasis on Paul. The gospel did not start with Paul. It has been being preached throughout time, to all this world in all generations.

You seem to be identifying a point in time where the good news given Israel had come to age. It was time to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. As patterned by Adam, Eve, Able, Cain, Noah, Abraham.....list is too long. Paul was a key witness to the Gentiles, yes. So was Peter. Yes, I know the 'peter to the jews-paul to the gentiles' shtick. But I just think your making too much of that point. Israel was not completely veiled to Messiah. There were and are many faithful Jews.

What has been revealed and poured out as wine is eternal life, and unity with God through Jesus and his Spirit. It's been likened to saying God's Spirit was 'among' them in those days, but today He is within us'. Though I don't buy that completely either. Because I believe there were those who had the indwelling of the Spirit of God. The Spirit given Jesus was with them, but they did not know him as we know him now. This is true. But they knew him just the same.

They knew him and trusted that he is the Messiah. Because he came and saved them in their place. They didn't have to know what he would do at ground zero, they didn't need to have their minds opened in vision to see it. Though I believe David and Abraham did, among others. They just had to believe in who he was in the here and now. Their faith made them righteous. Their faith lead them to live for God.

Are you trying to say that all those born before Jesus were deficient in some way?
 

WalkingTree

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Let me put it this way, if Gentile converts are required to obey the whole of Moses law(that is possible to follow) then the leaders of the first century Christian church gave gentiles a licence to sin
But Gentile converts are not required to obey the whole law given Moses. And the council was identifying that.

The council was not placing anyone under the whole law of Moses. Your question is a non-sequitur.
 
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Tim416

Guest
But Gentile converts are not required to obey the whole law given Moses. And the council was identifying that.

The council was not placing anyone under the whole law of Moses. Your question is a non-sequitur.
Im glad you agree, gentile converts are not required to obey Moses law
 

WalkingTree

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Righteousness comes through being united with Jesus through the Spirit. No other way. This occurs for us today through faith. The same way it occurred in the time of Moses and Abraham. God commands, and you obey BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE HIS WORDS. Too many say God commands, AND YOU OBEY, because you believe his words...
Could you clear that up a little? What are you saying here?
Haha, let me try to break it down for you.

Righteousness comes only through being united with Jesus through the Spirit of God.

This only happens through faith, and produces a life of good works that glorify God.

It was the same for Israel of old. God instructs and Israel obeys and it is seen as righteousness. Why?

Because of the faith that motivated them to act. Not because of the action itself.

The heart intent is everything to God. Because it exemplifies our faith.
 

crossnote

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I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
There really is no choice for those who belong to Christ...

By His grace, He will never lead you along unlawful paths.
 

WalkingTree

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Im glad you agree, gentile converts are not required to obey Moses law
Not so quick. I wouldn't want you to run away saying it needs to be thrown out and forgotten. You'd need to realize that it's Spirit was placed within you. The Spirit that gave the Law is the same Spirit that dwells within believers. So to say we are not required to obey the laws given Israel through Moses the way they were intended Israel to observe them. Yes. No they are not required of non-Jewish believers. However, to negate the law altogether, that's a whole other ball of meshgua.
 
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Tim416

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Not so quick. I wouldn't want you to run away saying it needs to be thrown out and forgotten. You'd need to realize that it's Spirit was placed within you. The Spirit that gave the Law is the same Spirit that dwells within believers. So to say we are not required to obey the laws given Israel through Moses the way they were intended Israel to observe them. Yes. No they are not required of non-Jewish believers. However, to negate the law altogether, that's a whole other ball of meshgua.
How can you negate what is in your most inward parts, what is written in your mind and placed on your heart?
 
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I do think you're placing too much emphasis on Paul. The gospel did not start with Paul. It has been being preached throughout time, to all this world in all generations.

You seem to be identifying a point in time where the good news given Israel had come to age. It was time to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. As patterned by Adam, Eve, Able, Cain, Noah, Abraham.....list is too long. Paul was a key witness to the Gentiles, yes. So was Peter. Yes, I know the 'peter to the jews-paul to the gentiles' shtick. But I just think your making too much of that point. Israel was not completely veiled to Messiah. There were and are many faithful Jews.

What has been revealed and poured out as wine is eternal life, and unity with God through Jesus and his Spirit. It's been likened to saying God's Spirit was 'among' them in those days, but today He is within us'. Though I don't buy that completely either. Because I believe there were those who had the indwelling of the Spirit of God. The Spirit given Jesus was with them, but they did not know him as we know him now. This is true. But they knew him just the same.

They knew him and trusted that he is the Messiah. Because he came and saved them in their place. They didn't have to know what he would do at ground zero, they didn't need to have their minds opened in vision to see it. Though I believe David and Abraham did, among others. They just had to believe in who he was in the here and now. Their faith made them righteous. Their faith lead them to live for God.

Are you trying to say that all those born before Jesus were deficient in some way?
Deficient? No....A different program

Notice how Paul claims the gospel...

Galatians 1:11-18 King James Version (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem To see Peter , and abode with him fifteen days.

Notice.....after 14 years!!! Of preaching to the gentiles, a gospel NOT received by men...(ABOVE) he comes back by revelation. Notice he says (ABOVE) he didn’t even goto the others to share HIS revelation of the mystery yet!! He makes the point...Neither went I to Jerusalem, which were appostles before me. He only goes to see Peter AFTER 3 years of preaching a specific message!



Galatians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them That gospel which I preach among the gentiles, BUT PRIVATELY to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

(Above) you can tell, the others were weary of Paul, and his revelation...and Paul shares his unspoken feelings, “God accepteth no mans persons” why?

Because he is portraying the “air” in the room, that what they are talking about makes no difference to him, he knows what Jesus told him, and he’s goin to do it.

7 But contrariwise, (opposite of what they thought!!!)when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter
 

Deade

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How can you negate what is in your most inward parts, what is written in your mind and placed on your heart?
I am glad to see some practical minds coming forward in this thread. There was a lot of judgment about 4-5 pages back where everyone was saying that we are cursed if we try to do anything written in the law.

Here it looks like we still serve the law only in a newness of spirit. Rom. 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

How are we to view the law from our grace perspective? Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I don't know about the rest of you, but sometimes I still need my schoolmaster. Since maturing in Christ my heavenly Father backs off the day by day guidance through the Comforter. Oh! We know what to do and He expects our faith to kick in and lead us to do what we know.
 
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Tim416

Guest
I am glad to see some practical minds coming forward in this thread. There was a lot of judgment about 4-5 pages back where everyone was saying that we are cursed if we try to do anything written in the law.

Here it looks like we still serve the law only in a newness of spirit. Rom. 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

How are we to view the law from our grace perspective? Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I don't know about the rest of you, but sometimes I still need my schoolmaster. Since maturing in Christ my heavenly Father backs off the day by day guidance through the Comforter. Oh! We know what to do and He expects our faith to kick in and lead us to do what we know.
The law is indeed holy, just and good. The problem was the penalty attached to it that brought condemnation for transgression. Without that penalty, all you are left with, is what is holy, just and good. Condemnation has gone.

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds
.’[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
.
Heb10:16&17

The power of sin is the law(of righteousness) 1Cor15:56

So God did an amazing thing. He transferred the law he wants you to follow from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3) At the same time, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more(for you have a saviour from sin) You only get a saviour from sin as the law is in your heart. What is in your heart, you in your heart want to follow.
The true power of sin is removed from the believers life, for righteousness of obeying the law is removed, by Jesus dying for your sins/transgression of the law, the penalty of sin has been paid. So Paul states:

Fior sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

The law remains intact in your heart, by the penalty for transgression being removed, so has sins true power been removed from your life. No licence to sin, for what is in your heart, you in your heart want to follow
 

WalkingTree

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Jan 13, 2019
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Notice.....after 14 years!!! Of preaching to the gentiles, a gospel NOT received by men...(ABOVE) he comes back by revelation. Notice he says (ABOVE) he didn’t even goto the others to share HIS revelation of the mystery yet!! He makes the point...Neither went I to Jerusalem, which were appostles before me. He only goes to see Peter AFTER 3 years of preaching a specific message!
All received that revelation by God himself. Not one of them came to the revelation of Christ, so making them an apostle, by means of men. All were given to Jesus by his Father, and not one of them failed. Matthew 11:25, 16:17, and John 17:6 all prove this.

What you see is Paul stating he received it the same way. From God. In fact, you could say that Paul was a bit more difficult than the others in that while the other disciples all came to faith in Jesus through realizing he was the One spoken of through the law and the prophets. Paul on the other hand was supposed to know the law and the prophets better than most, yet missed this all together. He had to be visited by Jesus Spirit himself, personally. And blinded even, to reach this stubborn old Jew. He proved to Paul that He was the One who could blind and who could make see. He was the One who Paul was to be serving.

The others didn't have to go through all that. Though Peter did go through a similar situation of overstating his love and devotion to Jesus. Poor man, can't we all relate. "I would never!!!".... Good thing our God is all merciful with loving kindness reaching generations. Without his patience, grace and power hand in all things we would be doomed.

You say Paul had a specific message apart from the rest? Yet verses 6-10 state there is but one gospel. How do you reconcile this while using verses 11-18 to speak the opposite?
 

WalkingTree

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Jan 13, 2019
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I am glad to see some practical minds coming forward in this thread. There was a lot of judgment about 4-5 pages back where everyone was saying that we are cursed if we try to do anything written in the law.

Here it looks like we still serve the law only in a newness of spirit. Rom. 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

How are we to view the law from our grace perspective? Rom. 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I don't know about the rest of you, but sometimes I still need my schoolmaster. Since maturing in Christ my heavenly Father backs off the day by day guidance through the Comforter. Oh! We know what to do and He expects our faith to kick in and lead us to do what we know.
The example our God gave was to uplift those who stumble. Reach out to those in need, and stand on the Rock that is our salvation. Nowhere does Jesus come across as a warrior, he is the suffering servant paying the price for our sins. Reaching out to all who would have ear as led by the Spirit.

You don't want to NOT know the Jesus who comes back to this world to find it completely corrupt. He gave example of what it would be like, in short. But when the final curtain falls it will have been detailed in full. This Jesus, the conquering King is glorious and horrific in the same breath. Restoration is cleansing and refreshing, only after the purification.
 

WalkingTree

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So God did an amazing thing. He transferred the law he wants you to follow from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)
Yes, it is amazing. And imagine how it appears as one from Israel?
 
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Tim416

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Yes, it is amazing. And imagine how it appears as one from Israel?
When I chat to Israelites on the internet, I am so often delighted to see the rich knowledge of scripture they have(mostly better than mine)
I can only imagine how amazing it is to an Israelite
God bless
 

WalkingTree

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Jan 13, 2019
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When I chat to Israelites on the internet, I am so often delighted to see the rich knowledge of scripture they have(mostly better than mine)
I can only imagine how amazing it is to an Israelite
God bless
I meant how it was for those who lived in Messiah's day. Though it carries on till the day Jesus comes back. We are scattered but never forgotten.

You like discipline? ;) You like being shown to the nations just how bratty of a child you are? You like your blessings to be offered to the world when it appears they are all you have?

On the other hand. I like seeing the love a Father has for his children. I like seeing his example of how he died for us. I like seeing how he offered Israel nations, and declared his everlasting undying love for us. As he does for all. Most of all, I like seeing those who forsook their heritage for fodder turn back to our Father as a humble child. And watching Him open his arms and pour out the blessings. Each one of us goes through this in our own way.
 
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Tim416

Guest
I meant how it was for those who lived in Messiah's day. Though it carries on till the day Jesus comes back. We are scattered but never forgotten.

You like discipline? ;) You like being shown to the nations just how bratty of a child you are? You like your blessings to be offered to the world when it appears they are all you have?

On the other hand. I like seeing the love a Father has for his children. I like seeing his example of how he died for us. I like seeing how he offered Israel nations, and declared his everlasting undying love for us. As he does for all. Most of all, I like seeing those who forsook their heritage for fodder turn back to our Father as a humble child. And watching Him open his arms and pour out the blessings. Each one of us goes through this in our own way.
A time is coming when:
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Zech12:10-14
 
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Tim416

Guest
No one has ever been righteous by the law, how can you be righteous, when moses himself said the people had confirm and obey ever word, otherwise, they were under a curse.paul understood this when he quoted moses in Gal 3, why can’t others?
I see this website has not improved your discernment over the years. No one has ever been righteous under the law, correct. But then, some of us read the bible as a cohesive whole, and some cannot. Just because no one attained to righteousness of obeying the law, does not mean righteousness of obeying the law was not in place under the old covenant. A bit too much for some to understand. Oh well, soon be time to move to a website where the understanding is a wee bit more mature.
 
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Tim416

Guest
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness. Deut6:25



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom10:4

For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked leads to destruction. Psalm1:6

Do not bring your servant into judgment,
for no one living is righteous before you. Psalms143:2



To be truly righteous under obeying the law requires perfect obedience of it. It has been said that if no one can be righteous by obeying the law, righteousness of obeying the law cannot be in place under the old covenant. And yet, Moses told the people their righteousness would be obeying the law. And Paul stated Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness. Then David often refers to people as righteous, as well as stating no one is righteous before God. As the bible does not contradict itself, how do we bring all the scriptures together?

God would consider people as righteous, based on their human limitations who loved him and sought to follow his ways.

However, no one could be truly righteous before God, as no one could fully obey the law they were under. (Psalms143:2)



As no one could be truly righteous, for they did not fully obey the law they were under:

Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. Isaiah28:18

And:



Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death Rom8:2



There was no true righteousness under the old covenant, for no one could faultlessly obey the law they were under. Therefore, the covenant is referred to by Isaiah, as a covenant of death. As Paul stated, the law written on stone was the ministration of death and condemnation.



Those under the new covenant can have no righteousness apart from Christ, who died for their sins. Those who died under the old covenant can only have true righteousness through Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary also. There is only one way to Heaven for all, through the Son of God who died at Calvary for peoples sins/transgressions of the law

 
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Tim416

Guest
That's my whole point. Righteousness was available by obedience to the law but NO ONE achieved it.

There was no righteousness if the only righteousness there was was obedience to the law.

There was forgiveness of sin. But no righteousness.

Didn't you read Romans 3 that I just posted??
BTW
Before I go, I once too believed the law had been abolished, not just the penalty for transgression. But, I allowed myself to have an open mind when my error was pointed out to me.
You can only be conscious of sin you know through the law.
If someone committed adultery, would they specifically be conscious they sinned because they committed adultery? Same goes for taking the Lords name in vain, stealing, coveting etc

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

A basic scriptural truth, which can often be overturned if necessary!!

Paul said we do not make void the law through faith, rather we establish the law(rom3:31) so if we read the bible as a cohesive whole, we know what did get abolished don't we. The system of law that could condemn. That was abolished, the law without the penalty for transgression is transferred onto the heart and mind of the believer, hence they are conscious of sin, with no righteousness of works of the law