Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Relative righteousness vs Absolute righteousness. When one sees the difference, they prefer mercy over justice.
 

Grandpa

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Just how do you know what my salvation is based on? Who set you up as my judge and jury? I know how to please the God I gave my life to. He has brought me down a much different path than you. Keeping some points, as best we can, of God's law does not curse us. Be careful you don't curse yourself by claiming such.

You position seems ridiculous to me. How do you tell yourself you are any different than the world? So tell me Grandpa what do you do that is any different than what the world does? Insisting on your own way and pointing the finger at anyone that doesn't approve. :cool:
You missed the big part of that post.

If...

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
 

Grandpa

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Oh I do understand the words that I speak. It is because you do not understand this subject you refuse to accept what the bible plainly states concerning it. I am amazed, I have never been on any other website where people do not understand righteousness of obeying the law was in place under the old covenant. Why do you think Paul kept stressing the Christian has no righteousness of obeying the law/works of the law? It should not be hard to understand.

Here:

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one(no one) living is righteous before you Psalms143:2

Why not?

And if no one under the old covenant was under righteousness of obeying the law/not committing sin, why did Jesus need to die for our sins/give us righteousness apart from the law. According to you, they already had righteousness apart from obeying the law under the old covenant.
No one living is righteous before you.

Because there is no such thing as righteousness of obeying the law.

I never said anything about people in the old covenant being under ANY kind of righteousness.

I'm saying the same thing as the psalmist in Psalm 143:2

People under the old covenant were under the condemnation of trying to obey the law.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Very good: Sin and death through righteousness of obeying the law


Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. Rom8:1&2

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it
will never be stricken with panic.
17 I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb-line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding-place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.
Isaiah28:16-18
You're not hearing what you're saying.

You can't have sin and death through righteousness.

You can have sin and death through condemnation.

You get Blessing and Salvation through Righteousness. You already know and agree that was not available through the law.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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BTW
Before I go, I once too believed the law had been abolished, not just the penalty for transgression. But, I allowed myself to have an open mind when my error was pointed out to me.
You can only be conscious of sin you know through the law.
If someone committed adultery, would they specifically be conscious they sinned because they committed adultery? Same goes for taking the Lords name in vain, stealing, coveting etc

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

A basic scriptural truth, which can often be overturned if necessary!!

Paul said we do not make void the law through faith, rather we establish the law(rom3:31) so if we read the bible as a cohesive whole, we know what did get abolished don't we. The system of law that could condemn. That was abolished, the law without the penalty for transgression is transferred onto the heart and mind of the believer, hence they are conscious of sin, with no righteousness of works of the law
All I can say is that you are 100% wrong. It is exactly what a lot of people believe. But it is still 100% wrong.

The law points out sin. It doesn't cause anyone to stop sinning. Otherwise, there would be no need for anything BUT the law.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Why would God write something on our hearts and minds that is weak and unprofitable??

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

How could Paul say we are no longer under a schoolmaster after we come to Christ if it is that same schoolmaster that is written on our hearts and minds?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

If the law that points out sin is written on your heart and mind what does that do? It causes sin to have dominion over you.

How could Paul state any of these things if the 10 commandments are written on peoples hearts and minds?

It would be a lie. He would have had to have stated it some other way. He would have had to say 'Even though you can never be anything but under the law the Lord Jesus will give you grace'. But Paul never states anything like that.
 

Deade

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You missed the big part of that post.

If...

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal. 3:10 speaks of somebody trying to gain justification through the law, thus "of the law." I think the ESV make it more plain:

Gal. 3:10 "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”"

By relying, they are seeking the law to redeem them. A false assumption.
 

Grandpa

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Gal. 3:10 speaks of somebody trying to gain justification through the law, thus "of the law." I think the ESV make it more plain:

Gal. 3:10 "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”"

By relying, they are seeking the law to redeem them. A false assumption.
That's not the thought that is being expressed in Galatians 3.

Paul starts out by saying Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?

They tried to mix working at the law with Christianity. To attain something like Super Righteous Christianity.

Paul sets them straight by showing that those who work at the law are placing themselves under a curse.

They are not achieving Super Righteous Christianity.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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You're getting bent out of shape because I was lamenting the fact of the creation of yet another thread, among so many, about Law vs Grace?

Seriously?
How many subjects being brought up are unique?
How many times and how long have the subjects of salvation, works, the law, ...etc., been rehashed on this site?
It's a never ending cycle of same old stuff. That's one reason why I don't come on this site much anymore.
I don't see it as Christian chat but Christian spats. Man spitting on each other.
It's one thing if you perceive someone as being wicked or evil, or a subtly deceitful person, but it's another matter, I think with most on CC, when they are genuinely honest and simply like to socialize with others.
The only reason why I like coming on this sight is because God shows me more things when I organize my thoughts through my studies of the subjects of discussion, when responding to other's posts.
However, I see far more things in many so called Christians that I don't like, than what I do.
I have also found that if I stay on this sight for too long, I become spiteful like others.
I seem to do better spending more time with God and less with others.
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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How many times and how long have the subjects of salvation, works, the law, ...etc., been rehashed on this site?
It's a never ending cycle of same old stuff.
Which was my entire point!
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
That's not the thought that is being expressed in Galatians 3.

Paul starts out by saying Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?

They tried to mix working at the law with Christianity. To attain something like Super Righteous Christianity.

Paul sets them straight by showing that those who work at the law are placing themselves under a curse.

They are not achieving Super Righteous Christianity.
That is just what you read in to it. Those Galatians were expecting the law to redeem them. It says nothing about Super Righteous Christianity, whatever that is supposed to be. Hahaha...
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Did you continue reading Romans? Keep going and make it through Romans 8, then you’ll see why this sounds so severe......this is not how it is now, under grace
I have both read and understand what Romans is talking about and to whom is it addressed to.
Are you telling me that God will NOT render to everyone, including the Christians, according to their works?
Do you not believe that God is no respecter of any person?
No one is exempted from the judgments of God, including the children of God.
You might be looking at the eternal aspect of the subject, thinking that Jesus paid for our sins/works, but it doesn't stop Him from judging us in this natural world to those who fail to repent of deeds God doesn't like.
Romans 2 applies to the child of God as much as the unbeliever.
Check out verses 6 and 7.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

EVERY MAN means and includes EVERYONE.
 

Deade

Called of God
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However, I see far more things in many so called Christians that I don't like, than what I do.
I have also found that if I stay on this sight for too long, I become spiteful like others.
I seem to do better spending more time with God and less with others.
Well maybe you should give up. Nothing brings out the flesh as much as one Christian doing something another isn't. This seem especially true when it comes to the law of God. Even though it does not earn us anything, it seems our doing it is an affront to those that don't. I think the open atmosphere is good practice of how to keep our cool. If you can't do that, then maybe it is better to leave. Via con Dias. :cool:
 
Dec 26, 2018
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I have both read and understand what Romans is talking about and to whom is it addressed to.
Are you telling me that God will NOT render to everyone, including the Christians, according to their works?
Do you not believe that God is no respecter of any person?
No one is exempted from the judgments of God, including the children of God.
You might be looking at the eternal aspect of the subject, thinking that Jesus paid for our sins/works, but it doesn't stop Him from judging us in this natural world to those who fail to repent of deeds God doesn't like.
Romans 2 applies to the child of God as much as the unbeliever.
Check out verses 6 and 7.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

EVERY MAN means and includes EVERYONE.
Jesus Christ judges your walk as a Christian....At the bema seat, this is where you will be rewarded, or not rewarded......If you goto the White throne judgement friend....it’s all down hill from there....you will NOT be judged for SIN, that would make his Sons death in vain.....you will be judged on your works, if you were an unbeliever, that did not believe Christ died for your sins ....you would have lost your lawyer.....repentance is included in your sanctification, though out your entire Christian life....some men never gain rewards at the bema seat, but they are Gods child none the less, .who are you to judge another mans servent? No one.....litterally and respectfully
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Which was my entire point!
But don't you do the very same thing as well, when you start new threads?
Especially if you are like most here on CC who only know how to talk about salvation, and can't seem to go beyond the baby food.
I like knowing HOW things works, both in the natural and supernatural worlds.
Talking to many on CC is like talking to my wife about how to do something or how it works.
She doesn't care about the details of what it takes to erect a structure, or what make an engine run, or even what make the water come out of the faucet. She says, "I don't care to know how a house is build, I just want a house. I don't care what make the vehicles run, I just want the thing to start when I turn the key, and I don't care how the water comes out the faucet. I just want it to come out when I turn the handle." She doesn't care HOW someone is born again or WHAT God has to do to answer pray. She just know, "ask, and it shall be given to you", and so she expects to have what she asks for.
I can't discuss bible to her because she says I complicate things. Then jokingly says, "keep it simple stupid."
She is extremely smart, but doesn't understand how things work, nor does she want to know. She just wants me to keep it short and simple.
That seems to be the attributes of many on CC.
I have something somewhat different or new, but I'm not finished with my studies yet.
 
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
How many subjects being brought up are unique?
How many times and how long have the subjects of salvation, works, the law, ...etc., been rehashed on this site?
It's a never ending cycle of same old stuff. That's one reason why I don't come on this site much anymore.
I don't see it as Christian chat but Christian spats. Man spitting on each other.
It's one thing if you perceive someone as being wicked or evil, or a subtly deceitful person, but it's another matter, I think with most on CC, when they are genuinely honest and simply like to socialize with others.
The only reason why I like coming on this sight is because God shows me more things when I organize my thoughts through my studies of the subjects of discussion, when responding to other's posts.
However, I see far more things in many so called Christians that I don't like, than what I do.
I have also found that if I stay on this sight for too long, I become spiteful like others.
I seem to do better spending more time with God and less with others.
Do you believe that repentance comes from you? Or God? Using, what I assume your definition of repentance is....”turning from sin”?
 
Dec 26, 2018
437
157
43
But don't you do the very same thing as well, when you start new threads?
Especially if you are like most here on CC who only know how to talk about salvation, and can't seem to go beyond the baby food.
I like knowing HOW things works, both in the natural and supernatural worlds.
Talking to many on CC is like talking to my wife about how to do something or how it works.
She doesn't care about the details of what it takes to erect a structure, or what make an engine run, or even what make the water come out of the faucet. She says, "I don't care to know how a house is build, I just want a house. I don't care what make the vehicles run, I just want the thing to start when I turn the key, and I don't care how the water comes out the faucet. I just want it to come out when I turn the handle." She doesn't care HOW someone is born again or WHAT God has to do to answer pray. She just know, "ask, and it shall be given to you", and so she expects to have what she asks for.
I can't discuss bible to her because she says I complicate things. Then jokingly says, "keep it simple stupid."
She is extremely smart, but doesn't understand how things work, nor does she want to know. She just wants me to keep it short and simple.
That seems to be the attributes of many on CC.
I have something somewhat different or new, but I'm not finished with my studies yet.

Honestly, I know what you mean.....we are all here to learn, I will say this....

In this scripture, rightly dividing the word of truth.


2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I wish someone lead me to this earlier in my studies....it simplifies everything and your wife would be amazed at the simplicity.....

Look up Richard Jordan on YouTube.....I wish I knew of him long ago

Look up Richard Jordan/rightly dividing

What harm could come of it?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,894
127
63
Jesus Christ judges your walk as a Christian....At the bema seat, this is where you will be rewarded, or not rewarded......If you goto the White throne judgement friend....it’s all down hill from there....you will NOT be judged for SIN, that would make his Sons death in vain.....you will be judged on your works, if you were an unbeliever, that did not believe Christ died for your sins ....you would have lost your lawyer.....repentance is included in your sanctification, though out your entire Christian life....some men never gain rewards at the bema seat, but they are Gods child none the less, .who are you to judge another mans servent? No one.....litterally and respectfully
First off, I repeat, I did not judge anyone, God did. But if I did, my judgment would be true, as it was Jesus who spoke it, not me. If you didn't stick you foot out under the falling rock, it wouldn't get smashed. In other words, if the man didn't see himself being a hypocrite or failing to walk in love, he wouldn't have felt the need to try and justify his actions to me. I simply quoted scripture.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you, and don't be a hypocrite, or do what you are condemning others for.
If you take offense to that, then you can't receive some truths of God's word, personally.
It is like talking about WOF.
So many are offended with the doctrine, and yet it is a truth in scripture, which means it works as prescribed.
 
Dec 26, 2018
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First off, I repeat, I did not judge anyone, God did. But if I did, my judgment would be true, as it was Jesus who spoke it, not me. If you didn't stick you foot out under the falling rock, it wouldn't get smashed. In other words, if the man didn't see himself being a hypocrite or failing to walk in love, he wouldn't have felt the need to try and justify his actions to me. I simply quoted scripture.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you, and don't be a hypocrite, or do what you are condemning others for.
If you take offense to that, then you can't receive some truths of God's word, personally.
It is like talking about WOF.
So many are offended with the doctrine, and yet it is a truth in scripture, which means it works as prescribed.

I’m not trying to sound “all knowing”, or as though I am better than you....I’m not

But for the purpose of sharing and learning, I believe you are reading scripture that was not meant for you.....Paul is the appostle to the gentiles and Jesus revealed to him, a message for you....Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were all during Christ’s earthly ministry....preached as the LAW was applied during this time to the Jews....there is neither Jew nor gentile today....it is one gospel, but Paul’s message was revealed after the death and ressurection of Christ....as a matter of fact, Christ said Paul was a chosen vessel for the gentiles.....I hope you will watch that sermon I showed you, if not, I guess this is all more of the same
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,894
127
63
Do you believe that repentance comes from you? Or God? Using, what I assume your definition of repentance is....”turning from sin”?
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We do according to the spirit that is in us.
I believe God is the initiator for repentance.
 
Dec 26, 2018
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Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We do according to the spirit that is in us.
I believe God is the initiator for repentance.
I can’t engage with this scripture....it was not written to me, I am not of the lost sheep of Israel....Jesus does have a message for us through his wholesome words, but he was not teaching you and me.....we were not yet grafted in....and when we were, it was through Paul’s epistles, with the message of Grace, completely different than what Jesus was doing, he was preaching the kingdom of God......different program