Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#41
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
It isn't so much that I have issues with certain spiritual gifts, but the charismatic claims related to their specific understanding of these gifts AND their dubious claims.

Give me a sound, well-grounded believer who isn't full of pride, vanity, and gullibility that makes a supernatural claim, and I might believe him if it is inline with Scripture.

Unfortunately few that meet all these criteria are available. Most of them are nutty people who could be mentally ill and have been indoctrinated in other poor theology.

All one has to do is look at the nuts on TBN to get an idea on such individuals and their credibility.

I'm not convinced "speaking in tongues" is the gibberish we see from Pentecostal/charismatic circles either. If they were speaking literal language and the encounter served a redemptive purpose, it would be more credible to me.

By the way, even if Pentecostal expressions of these gifts are faulty (and I certainly believe that), it doesn't stop God from allowing the manifestation of such gifts at a future time. However, I am not one of those 'signs and wonders" guys who runs around from here and there looking for such things.

Nor does my personal relationship with God depend on Him putting on a circus act for me.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,448
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#42
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
You might want to look at church history to determine why Calvin (and the other Reformers) might have bias against charismatic behavior and weird charismatics.

Study the Zwickau prophets, which were a bunch of charismatic nuts that caused problems after the Reformation. They may have caused civil unrest with their nutty prophecies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwickau_prophets

Obviously Calvin, as a younger contemporary of Luther, would have witnessed the spectacle of nuttiness that these individuals generated. It probably looked pretty bad on the evangelical church. I imagine it confirmed the suspicions of Roman Catholics that each man's weird interpretation of Scripture would not be good for society as a whole.

While I don't agree with Roman Catholics, I can sympathize with their fears. There is so much weirdness in the Church that I sometimes wonder how in the world Jesus is going to deal with it. However, it's not in my job description to straighten it all out :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#43
Here's a video on why John Calvin had issues with charismatic behavior...

There were two different groups that were focusing on this in his day: Anabaptists and Libertines.


As I mentioned, church history records that charismatics caused a lot of problems after the Reformation. It was like "Charismatics Gone Wild".
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#44
There is more than one perfect as complete. Cannon is one. We are warning beforetime. The perfect law has come. With no laws missing in the book of law, the Bible.
'The perfect law of liberty' was given by the time James wrote James, an early Christian epistle. This was before the canon was completed. That 'perfect' had already come when Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#45
Here's a video on why John Calvin had issues with charismatic behavior...

There were two different groups that were focusing on this in his day: Anabaptists and Libertines.


As I mentioned, church history records that charismatics caused a lot of problems after the Reformation. It was like "Charismatics Gone Wild".
Jesus warned that there would be false prophets, but he also said that he sent true prophets. There were false prophets causing problems in the Old Testament, but that does not mean that God did not send true prophets also.

The pacifist Anabaptists suffered much because some of the mystics who had caused a lot of trouble were more warlike Anabaptists.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
5,067
487
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#46
It isn't so much that I have issues with certain spiritual gifts, but the charismatic claims related to their specific understanding of these gifts AND their dubious claims.

Give me a sound, well-grounded believer who isn't full of pride, vanity, and gullibility that makes a supernatural claim, and I might believe him if it is inline with Scripture.

Unfortunately few that meet all these criteria are available. Most of them are nutty people who could be mentally ill and have been indoctrinated in other poor theology.

All one has to do is look at the nuts on TBN to get an idea on such individuals and their credibility.
There are different 'movements' within the larger Charismatic movement, and it seems the kind who think God wants Christians to be rich and use that philosophy to raise money get a lot of airtime and make themselves the face of the movement to those who are not a part of it. But most of the time I have spent around Charismatics has not been around these types of people. Scripture twisting from preachers on TV irritates me also.

I have been around the gift of prophecy quite a bit. Most of it is not 'spectacular.' Quoting scripture is spiritual, but not spectacular either-- sort of mundane, but still spiritual and supernatural. Some prophecy is more spectacular, when prophecies tell details about an individual that those present could not actually know, for example.

There have also been numerous accounts of people understanding speaking of tongues in their own language, including several from the Azusa Street Revival.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
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Walk trough the valley
#47
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
Was there a closing of the Canon. Did God who is the same yesterday and today and for ever, stop speking. Or is it rather that He just speaks to His friends and as "Father to the Fatherless," and "is near the poor and broken hearted." I qualified on the last 3. But as a friend of God the last 3 are disolved. Your no longer Fatherless or poor and broken hearted, and to remain as a friend of God is where nothing else is real including your own life.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,448
1,305
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#48
There are different 'movements' within the larger Charismatic movement, and it seems the kind who think God wants Christians to be rich and use that philosophy to raise money get a lot of airtime and make themselves the face of the movement to those who are not a part of it. But most of the time I have spent around Charismatics has not been around these types of people. Scripture twisting from preachers on TV irritates me also.

I have been around the gift of prophecy quite a bit. Most of it is not 'spectacular.' Quoting scripture is spiritual, but not spectacular either-- sort of mundane, but still spiritual and supernatural. Some prophecy is more spectacular, when prophecies tell details about an individual that those present could not actually know, for example.

There have also been numerous accounts of people understanding speaking of tongues in their own language, including several from the Azusa Street Revival.
I don't deny that God sometimes uses other people to say something that is important for us to know individually.

However, I don't believe the claims of "prophets". I came from a cult whose leader claimed to be both an apostle and prophet, but he was a false teacher and a liar. And, this behavior is not limited to cults. I see it in charismatic/Pentecostal circles.

Charismatics themselves will admit that the error rate of "prophets" in their congregations is like 80 percent.

If God is inspiring someone, their error rate is going to be zero. Otherwise, they are a false teacher. Even if their error rate is 100 percent and they are teaching against Scripture, they are liars and false prophets.

Even though I am not a prophet, I can pick up details in peoples' words and behavior and make fairly accurate claims about them that they would verify as the truth. However it's not because I am a prophet, it's because I am good at picking up details and I have read enough to realize the possible factors behind their behavior or words. Regarding predicting the future, if someone guesses enough, some of their guesses are bound to become true, especially if they are good at looking at the trends behind the subject of their "prophecies".

The only prophets I acknowledge are those in Scripture. That's where I stand on it :) All others have a burden of proof they cannot meet.

My suspicion is that those claiming to be prophets and apostles are self-deluded, demonic, deceived by others' teachings, mentally ill, lying, and/or seeking attention or affirmation from people. In any of those cases, I have no interest in them and their claims.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#49
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
I believe "cessationism", is a "fruit of apostasy!" The "fruit" that "false wheat" bares!

The constant mocking and scoffing, in their relentless "blending in when "exposed?" Permeates through the pages of threads, and topics in here!
And, not just in CC! But, in "christendom", in general!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,741
1,170
113
#50
'The perfect law of liberty' was given by the time James wrote James, an early Christian epistle. This was before the canon was completed. That 'perfect' had already come when Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.
That perfect the gospel began being preached from the begingingthe gospel thread woven throughout the bible .The perfect he was speaking of was the closing of cannon. Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.

The book of Revelation is still the last chapter in the book of prophecy.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,741
1,170
113
#51
I believe "cessationism", is a "fruit of apostasy!" The "fruit" that "false wheat" bares!

The constant mocking and scoffing, in their relentless "blending in when "exposed?" Permeates through the pages of threads, and topics in here!
And, not just in CC! But, in "christendom", in general!
Makes me wonder why some would desire to mock God ?And therefore God mock them with stammering lips.

My question is why disregard the foundation of the doctrine of tongues as a law found in Isiah 28 and revisited in 1 Corihtinans 14?

Psalm 11:2-4 King James Version (KJV) For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,381
6,531
113
#52
That perfect the gospel began being preached from the begingingthe gospel thread woven throughout the bible .The perfect he was speaking of was the closing of cannon. Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.

The book of Revelation is still the last chapter in the book of prophecy.
There are no cannon in Scripture. Cannon were not invented until after the invention of gunpowder by the Chinese about a thousand years after the inception of the Church.

The canon (different word!) of Scripture was finalized about 400 AD, though the last book was probably written about 65-70 AD.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,741
1,170
113
#53
There are no cannon in Scripture. Cannon were not invented until after the invention of gunpowder by the Chinese about a thousand years after the inception of the Church.

The canon (different word!) of Scripture was finalized about 400 AD, though the last book was probably written about 65-70 AD.

LOl. Canon makes Cameras

Cannon unlike the Chinese was detective played by William Conrad from 1971to 1976 also .
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
899
615
93
#54
He just speaks to His friends and as "Father to the Fatherless," and "is near the poor and broken hearted." I qualified on the last 3. But as a friend of God the last 3 are disolved. Your no longer Fatherless or poor and broken hearted, and to remain as a friend of God is where nothing else is real including your own life.
I don't think this is the only way he will speak (consider the two witnesses) but at present I would strongly suggest that this is the way he does speak and somehow that does give me courage.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


@The thread in general...I think it is fair to say that scripture is complete but the mystery is not yet finished. This based of a verse in revelation (just prior to the two witnesses and just after the seven thunders).


...Quite surprised that there are understandings out there about "seeing through a mirror dimly" that suggest that is not currently the case. Baffling to be honest. What would tongues be necessary for when we are united in language in the Lord again? What would prophecy be necessary for when faith is sight? Supernatural knowledge it seems would be natural at that point. Much like you don't need to be taught how to breath.

Am I missing something?




In regard to how these gifts operate today, I can't particularly say. I only know what I've personally experienced but that there are MANY fakes out there. To the point where, if it's the Lord, it will line up with the word and I don't think it will venture so far into esotericism that you have no way to confirm or deny.

Anything super off the wall. Or...in a "corner", is to be treated with extreme suspicion. If it cannot be said to line up with the word in the loosest understanding, I fear for anyone that allows it to have any sway.


Utterances that are very closely aligned with a "reading between the lines" view of scripture the same thing.

Personally, I experience something more along the lines with the Lord's words through Nathan to David. Then again, the error of Balaam is something that comes up a lot in my life, so there is that also. But since the word states many things about rebukes, I consider this an attestation of his love. Unless someone has a word of rebuke, I am inclined to close my ears "mostly". I've experienced some things in IHOP (which I am now stoutly on the fence with) that while confirmed something in my heart...I'm not entirely certain if they spoke in error or not, so overall just confusing. I've had my fair share of seemingly "out of place" overreactions by people about me in charismatic circles. So, I avoid such things. The Lord knows where to find me.


Supernatural knowledge I've seen play out. I don't think my understanding of what someone is trying to say when no one else does is me. It's like "hey, I can speak (Joe) right now". Or situational knowledge that information is just "there" that I'm fairly confident I didn't know before.

Tongues I haven't ever seen as displayed in the upper room account, except perhaps in the easily explained away fashion described above. Myself it is not easily explained away, but non-believers, I suppose so. Thinking on how I would more realistically expect the Lord to work in a critical situation where I didn't know the language would be refocusing my mind to non-verbal communication (which I rarely do) and being guided. There are ways of communication that we all share and if it were necessary I think I could trust him to speak words I had no idea what they meant but I'm not certain as I haven't been there. I've heard accounts where people are cursing in a foreign tongue when they speak an unknown language so that factors in. At the same time there have been instances where someone has spoken in tongues and I felt like I was supposed to give the interpretation and stage fright ensued and someone else did after an uncomfortable silence. These experiences I have no clue what to make of really, except that I would definitely like to know the verdict but am comfortable interpreting many things, just not publicly.

Nothing about the experience I related seemed outside of the Lord, just that I don't like being put on the spot. Experiencing that once was enough for me to not automatically decry charismatic tongues as false, just that I am leery when someone is using private language publicly and it does not edify or have an interpretation.

I'm not opposed to it, but it needs a bit of defining for me personally to accept further.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#55
That perfect the gospel began being preached from the begingingthe gospel thread woven throughout the bible .The perfect he was speaking of was the closing of cannon. Paul wrote I Corinthians 13.
The message they had was already called 'perfect.' There is nothing in the context of I Corinthians 13 or elsewhere that would reasonably lead us to conclude that by 'that which is perfect' he was referring to a completed canon of scripture. And since he already had the 'perfect law of liberty' in unwritten form, it does not make sense that if the canon were written, his understanding prior to it being written would be like a child's compared to after it was written.
The book of Revelation is still the last chapter in the book of prophecy.
The Bible was not 'a book' back then. It was multiple scrolls. The end of the book of Revelation warns against adding to 'this book of prophecy'-- or this scroll. This particular book is called a 'book' (or scroll) earlier in the chapter.

All that is beside the point because who actually adds their prophecies to the Bible? The Bible is clear that there were prophecies that were not added in the Bible, so it does not stand to reason that if someone gets a prophecy it is adding to the Bible.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,741
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#56
The message they had was already called 'perfect.' There is nothing in the context of I Corinthians 13 or elsewhere that would reasonably lead us to conclude that by 'that which is perfect' he was referring to a completed canon of scripture. And since he already had the 'perfect law of liberty' in unwritten form, it does not make sense that if the canon were written, his understanding prior to it being written would be like a child's compared to after it was written.


The Bible was not 'a book' back then. It was multiple scrolls. The end of the book of Revelation warns against adding to 'this book of prophecy'-- or this scroll. This particular book is called a 'book' (or scroll) earlier in the chapter.

All that is beside the point because who actually adds their prophecies to the Bible? The Bible is clear that there were prophecies that were not added in the Bible, so it does not stand to reason that if someone gets a prophecy it is adding to the Bible.
The law of liberty is the gospel, the power of God unto salvation as it is written from faith. The unseen understanding compared to the same faith. (faith to faith) The gospel is revealed many, many times throughout the book of the law the bible or called the book of prophecy .

The warning at the end is in respect to the whole book .God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. This book is the entire Bible in respect to plagues. Plagues did not begin in Revelation . It looks back to the beginning Genesis from the first plague. . death .

Unlike the warning in Deuteronomy 4 in respect to adding new meaning to one word as a way of changing the commandment .

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:18

We all hear prophecy as it is written.

Why go above that which is written in any book ? How would that protect the integrity of the word of God ?


19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
5,067
487
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#57
The law of liberty is the gospel, the power of God unto salvation as it is written from faith. The unseen understanding compared to the same faith. (faith to faith) The gospel is revealed many, many times throughout the book of the law the bible or called the book of prophecy .

The warning at the end is in respect to the whole book .God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. This book is the entire Bible in respect to plagues. Plagues did not begin in Revelation . It looks back to the beginning Genesis from the first plague. . death .

Unlike the warning in Deuteronomy 4 in respect to adding new meaning to one word as a way of changing the commandment .

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:18

We all hear prophecy as it is written.

Why go above that which is written in any book ? How would that protect the integrity of the word of God ?


19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

That's a 'convenient' interpretation for your position, but it is not a good way to interpret the passage. I'm quoting fromt he KJV, emphasis in bold, mine.

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Did John write the whole Bible? John wrote a few books, and he wrote 'this book', the book of Revelation. Or 'this scroll'. Scrolls could hold only a limited amount of text, practically, and they didn't keep the whole Bible in one scroll. Nowadays we use a codex, a book bound on one side, which wasn't the practice back then.

You should not 'go beyond what is written' in your interpretation (using the phrase more akin to how you do than the way Paul did.)

Be that as it may, giving a prophecy is not the same thing as adding to the Bible or to the book of Revelation. In the past I have referred you to multiple scriptures that indicate that there have been numerous genuine prophecies that were not recorded in scriptures. Revelation says that the two witnesses will prophesy, but does not tell us what they say. Their prophesying does not mean they will be adding to the Bible or the book of Revelation and incurring plagues to themselves.

You should not try to take away from what the scripture teaches by doing teaching against gifts of the Spirit in the church today.

I Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

If I read scripture, it says 'For to one is given' but you would have us believe it is not given. If I read this scripture, it says all these worketh... the Spirit and you would have us believe the Spirit does not work this way.

These verses are from the same book where Paul writes, in I Corinthians 1 (bold emphasis mine)
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
9,211
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#58
I believe "cessationism", is a "fruit of apostasy!" The "fruit" that "false wheat" bares!

The constant mocking and scoffing, in their relentless "blending in when "exposed?" Permeates through the pages of threads, and topics in here!
And, not just in CC! But, in "christendom", in general!

for sure there are problems but the problems are one side of the coin and the other side of the coin is cessationism

I find it difficult to believe that those who mock and scoff and go out of their way to speak against ANYTHING spiritual in nature are led by the Holy Spirit at all.

we can all agree there is excess and error...obviously these folks have forgotten to consult how to behave as scripture does follow decorum and order

and stating you would believe, or would be more inclined to believe whatever, if a Christian you personally approved of occasioned to experience a gift of supernatural godly origin, is nonsense. you simply do not believe and want it your own way
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,985
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#59
I find it difficult to believe that those who mock and scoff and go out of their way to speak against ANYTHING spiritual in nature are led by the Holy Spirit at all.
I find it difficult to believe that miraculous powers and signs are the only things which are "spiritual in nature"

Don't you agree?
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,685
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#60
to say that Spiritual gifts have ceased is like saying that Christ's Faith has grown weaker -
'absurdity'...