Does man have a libertarian free will?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Where does it say in the bible that people are regenerated before they hold faith in the re-generator?

John 3 and 1 John 5.

A man that is not born again cannot even see the kingdom of God.

And, the sign of a true believer is one that is born again. This implies being born again precedes faith.

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

So, in this verse, those who are born again believe, not the other way around.

John 3 indicates that seeing the kingdom of God requires being born again.

John 3:1-8 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Seeing the kingdom of God requires spiritual eyes, which have not been given to all, but those who belong to Jesus.

I would suggest reading John 10, as well.

The Father gives specific individuals to the Son. They hear his voice as a result.

John 10:26-27 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
(ESV)

Read the whole chapter for the support, though.

I have also provided many more Scriptures in the thread on limited atonement.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...octrine-of-limited-atonement-biblical.187815/

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Calvinism did not come from God.😉

This depends on how you define "Calvinism". John Calvin was not correct in every respect on every topic.

That is why I don't use the word.

If you are talking about the doctrines of grace, though, they are certainly biblical.

And, non-Reformed people cannot provide a simple answer to 1 Corinthians 1:26ff as it clearly teaches God chooses individuals with negative characteristics in order to make his glory more clearly shown, and to eliminate the possibility of boasting.

 

[John146]

So God doesn't rule over the kingdoms of men?

Rule or allowing? The kingdoms of this world are ruled by Satan, the god of this world.

 

[Dave-L]

Rule or allowing? The kingdoms of this world are ruled by Satan, the god of this world.

Not according to scripture. God uses Satan to accomplish his will.

 

[garee]

Where does it say in the bible that people are regenerated before they hold faith in the re-generator?

Its not their faith, previously having zero not any, that they hold on to (not of ourselves) But a work of His labor of love in us.. . not of us

Its not actual before but as the father works continuously in us to both will and do His good pleasure .The before as to the work of His faith is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

God is simply working in us giving us His faith so we an work with him without murmuring. .

As many as the father gave the Son .They alone can come. Not one more or one less. . names are written beforehand.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Rule or allowing? The kingdoms of this world are ruled by Satan, the god of this world.

Ultimately, God is sovereign. The believer should pray that Satan be restrained in terms of deceiving him. And, we know that Satan seeks to destroy God's chosen, but he can only do so in a physical sense. He cannot ultimately defeat those who belong to Jesus. Jesus kicks butt!

The elect will heed the warnings of Scripture, and rely on Jesus as their source of deliverance. Not their alleged autonomous free will.

 

[John146]

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

So, in this verse, those who are born again believe, not the other way around.

Belief comes first.

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[garee]

How can anything not come from God?

Reminded me of Paul. Why puff one self up above that which is written? Some were hoping the flesh of the apostles could profit for something. Even though Jesus had said of his own flesh it profits for nothing .Its the words of the unseen father that can. His living word is Spirit and is life.

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

[oyster67]

So God doesn't rule over the kingdoms of men?

He does not make all their choices for them. What foolish notions you entertain.

 

[garee]

Belief comes first.

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Whosoever believes, exercises or works out the faith of Jesus that works in them . . is the Christ is born of God:

Is born again not will be.

No faith no salvation

That verse is showing or identifies a believer who has already believed. We love Him because he first loved us.

When we repent it is that love we are repenting to and by. Without Him we cannot seek after him who has no form.
Without Him we would not know which way to turn .. . . east, west, north south, up or down.

He who is not a man as us is our GPS. He turns us so that we can find him and then gives us his understand . Without his faith working us in us to both will the desire and do the power to perform.

No man of his own volition can seek after him in order to understand him who has no form .

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Belief comes first.

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

No, it says that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has already been born of God.

And, everyone who lives the Father has already been born of him.

The fruit comes from the new birth.

A carnal man cannot produce this spiritual fruit.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him (ESV)

See, this is the entire problem...your idea is that faith is a decision which results in regeneration, rather than regeneration producing fruit.

This is because free-willers don't understand that faith is a gift resulting from an action of God, not a decision generated by a hardened heart.

Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

[John146]

No, it says that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has already been born of God.

And, everyone who lives the Father has already been born of him.

The fruit comes from the new birth.

A carnal man cannot produce this spiritual fruit.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him (ESV)

See, this is the entire problem...your idea is that faith is a decision which results in regeneration, rather than regeneration producing fruit.

This is because free-willers don't understand that faith is a gift resulting from an action of God, not a decision generated by a hardened heart.

Ephesians 2:1-10.

Clue #1, ESV

 

[garee]

He does not make all their choices for them. What foolish notions you entertain.

It would seem he does. We should believe without murmuring, get the logs out of the eye.

Philippians 2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

That helps reconcile the eternal confidence spoken of in the 1st chapter verse 6 that if Christ has begun the good work of salvation in us he will work in us with us to the end .

He is of one mind .He has the power to make our heart soft .

Job 23 :13-17 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Because I was not cut off before the darkness, neither hath he covered the darkness from my face.

Better things, things that accompany salvation.Things to help us if we are tempted to murmur, things that can humble our hearts. . Unlike some who have tasted and decided men can lose that which is not of them-self to begin with

hebrew 6: 9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Clue #1, ESV

The ESV is consistent.

I think if you understood the KJV correctly, it wouldn't be in conflict anyways.

However, I am not a KJV Onlyist. Most of them are Independent Fundamental Baptists, and their fruit is obvious. One simply has to look at Stephen Anderson, Gene Kim, Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipp, Gail Riplinger, Kent Hovind to see that they are nutcases.

The whole theme of the book is identifying who the schizmatics were.

Those who are not born again are the schizmatics, and the evidence is because they left the fellowship of believers.

But, let's look at these statements:

1 John 2:29 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
(ESV)

1 John 3:9 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God
(ESV)

1 John 4:7 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
(ESV)

1 John 5:18 18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
(ESV)

So, I don't think anyone would claim that being born again came after obedience and love, but rather being born again preceded obedience and love. These are spiritual fruit borne by those in union with Christ. They produce this fruit through their union with Him.

However, when it comes to 1 John 5:1, they will claim that belief comes first, prior to being born again or regenerated. Their inconsistency is apparent.

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

You can blame it on the ESV all you want. The Greek indicates that you are wrong, and so does the context. The context indicates that being born again evidences itself in various ways, and belief is one of those evidences, not the cause.

This instruction was given to identify false believers, who were not born again, and in every case, the result is preceded by the new birth.

Again, this is a failure to admit that God provides even the faith and the repentance, through regeneration.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.

 

[John146]

So, I don't think anyone would claim that being born again came after obedience and love, but rather being born again preceded obedience and love. These are spiritual fruit borne by those in union with Christ. They produce this fruit through their union with Him.

However, when it comes to 1 John 5:1, they will claim that belief comes first, prior to being born again or regenerated. Their inconsistency is apparent.

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

You can blame it on the ESV all you want. The Greek indicates that you are wrong, and so does the context. The context indicates that being born again evidences itself in various ways, and belief is one of those evidences, not the cause.

I don’t claim that love and obedience comes prior to being born again. Belief in the gospel comes before regeneration. That’s Scripture, that’s the KJV.

Yes, I do blame the esv. The Greek? You have the original Greek of 1 John?

 

[garee]

The ESV is consistent.

I think if you understood the KJV correctly, it wouldn't be in conflict anyways.

However, I am not a KJV Onlyist. Most of them are Independent Fundamental Baptists, and their fruit is obvious. One simply has to look at Stephen Anderson, Gene Kim, Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipp, Gail Riplinger, Kent Hovind to see that they are nutcases.

The whole theme of the book is identifying who the schizmatics were.

Those who are not born again are the schizmatics, and the evidence is because they left the fellowship of believers.

But, let's look at these statements:

1 John 2:29 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
(ESV)

1 John 3:9 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God
(ESV)

1 John 4:7 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
(ESV)

1 John 5:18 18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
(ESV)

So, I don't think anyone would claim that being born again came after obedience and love, but rather being born again preceded obedience and love. These are spiritual fruit borne by those in union with Christ. They produce this fruit through their union with Him.

However, when it comes to 1 John 5:1, they will claim that belief comes first, prior to being born again or regenerated. Their inconsistency is apparent.

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

You can blame it on the ESV all you want. The Greek indicates that you are wrong, and so does the context. The context indicates that being born again evidences itself in various ways, and belief is one of those evidences, not the cause.

This instruction was given to identify false believers, who were not born again, and in every case, the result is preceded by the new birth.

Again, this is a failure to admit that God provides even the faith and the repentance, through regeneration.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.

A reminder we must be careful how we hear as a measure of faith (hearing God not seen)

Thanks for that. I was reminded of what you call schizmatics. (new word for me) The us in Christ compared to those who went out.

Luke 9 gives a clear understanding to that kind of work of the Holy Spirit who works in us. . Jesus going through a series of parables strengthening the apostles faith of Christ that worked in them. Purposely hiding the unseen spiritual understanding. Three times and then rebuked them declaring. . They have no idea what kind of spirit they are from .

When a parable was given and no understanding received. It became like Jesus was not even there. Like he was a alien And they played the pagan game who is the alpha dog as to who is the greatest. Like that of the Pharisee with Sadducee a different us. Men who lord it over the faith of others. Men of the number that compare themselves to themselves.

After one misunderstanding as mumble jumbo to them . John forbid one that was not one of them physically . Jesus used that to define the "us" in Him . . . who ever is not with us is against us. Us, is not determined by us but Him not seen

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.Luke 9:45-50

 

[Nehemiah6]

Calvinism did not come from God.😉

True. It turns the Gospel on its head. Once a person sees in the Bible that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD, that is the end of Calvinism.

ALL ARE SINNERS
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Rom 3:9,19)

ALL OUR SINS WERE LAID ON CHRIST
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:4-6)

 

[garee]

I don’t claim that love and obedience comes prior to being born again.
Belief in the gospel comes before regeneration. That’s Scripture, that’s the KJV.

Yes, I do blame the esv. The Greek? You have the original Greek of 1 John?

Belief in the gospel is the work of regeneration (not of our own selves.) Not a offer of salvation but a work . Christ's work of faith is not without his labor of love.

The language of different nations is not the problem .It does not say "after" .It says. Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Without the faith of Christ working in us no man could believe Him not seen .We walk by faith, the eternal.Not after what the eyes see, the temporal

 

[garee]

True. It turns the Gospel on its head. Once a person sees in the Bible that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD, that is the end of Calvinism.

ALL ARE SINNERS
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Rom 3:9,19)

ALL OUR SINS WERE LAID ON CHRIST
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:4-6)

He did die for the sins of the whole world. . all the pagan religions (out of sight out of mind) .Not just for the faithless Jews used to represent faithless mankind, the evil generation of Adam .

As many, not one more or less than the father gave the Son they alone can come. He will not cast them out that he confidence to .

Philipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

It turns the Gospel on its head. Once a person sees in the Bible that Christ died for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD, therefore. As many as is the end of Arminianism

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I had a couple super snarky things I was going to post.

But maybe I'm growing up...