Does man have a libertarian free will?

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Does man have a libertarian free will?

  • Yes, man has a libertarian free will

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No, man does not have a libertarian free will

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,589
702
113
I'm Reformed. Just never heard the term "libertarian free will" and would probably stick with "autonomous free will" as my term of choice. "Pelagianism" when I'm feeling spicy.

Not looking for an argument about semantics though. Keep fighting the good fight.

Autonomous free will is an equivalent term for libertarian free will.

In essence, they don't believe God exerts an influence on the will of mankind, as they view that to be a form of spiritual rape.

The Reformed position would be that God changes the nature of the unsaved man, giving him a heart of flesh to replace his stony heart, so that he can enter the kingdom of light and exercise faith and repentance. Therefore it is a necessity to save the man, who is dwelling in spiritual darkness, death and sin by nature until he receives this heart of flesh. There is no other way to go from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,354
2,498
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Everyone is Arminian and has a free will until they get saved. Then they become Calvinist and deem themselves Calvinist elect. Like the church in Revelation 2 they have forgotten their first love.

I found it heart rending that Harold Camping held to Calvinist theology and would never allow himself to actually believe that he was saved. I heard him many times on his radio show endeavor to talk people out of their profession of faith. I only tuned him in to hear the good Christian music he had on the station. He is in Gods hands now and the books he wrote setting the date of Christs return have long been shown to be wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That kind of Calvinism is an extreme. I had a professor of world religions and he was Reformed. He was on a year Sabbatical from being a missionary in Malaysia. He brought many Muslims and head hunters to the Lord. The head hunters would take out their shrunken skulls, and replacement them with a Bible in their language. He said, they called it their "power."

He said as a Reformed person, he knew God had called him to missionary work. I said, what do you think about the people that aren't saved. He said he lets God deal with them, he just his best in prayer and witness to show them who God is. But, he also said his mom came from that extremist Calvinist background. She would do prayer vigils and be on her knees for days, not walking to get around the house. She said she didn't know she was saved, no matter how much he showed her in the Bible. He was very sad for her, and that he couldn't show her the truth, in the Bible she believed in.

Fortunately, I am not an extremist, I know God loves me, and has chosen me as his own. I used to wonder if I was saved as an acting Arminian, because if I sinned, then I could lose my salvation. So my actions were more important than God's actions and truths. Realizing God had chosen me, gave me complete peace of mind. I never doubted God was with me, but too many warnings about how I was "possibly" going to lose my salvation, kept me a battered, and sad Christian. So glad to know my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession,that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession,that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10
Amen and Amen!!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
Do you think Reformed people believe responding to the Gospel is not a voluntary act?

If so, this would not be true. Reformed people believe that God changes the nature through regenerating the person, giving them a heart of flesh to replace their stony heart, and this heart of flesh produces faith and repentance. It is a decision of the will, produced by a new heart that loves God and wants to please him.

Free-willers think that their stony heart dredged up faith and repentance from some isolated corner of it, that was not corrupted by the Fall (or perhaps they don't believe the Fall affected their heart at all), in order to receive this heart of flesh, which makes zero sense :)
That actually misrepresents the truth of Reformed Theology.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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I'm Reformed. Just never heard the term "libertarian free will" and would probably stick with "autonomous free will" as my term of choice. "Pelagianism" when I'm feeling spicy.

Not looking for an argument about semantics though. Keep fighting the good fight.
Have you read every thread they've started so as to understand the "battle" they're waging?
I'd think not if you approve their style.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,715
113
That kind of Calvinism is an extreme. I had a professor of world religions and he was Reformed. He was on a year Sabbatical from being a missionary in Malaysia. He brought many Muslims and head hunters to the Lord. The head hunters would take out their shrunken skulls, and replacement them with a Bible in their language. He said, they called it their "power."

He said as a Reformed person, he knew God had called him to missionary work. I said, what do you think about the people that aren't saved. He said he lets God deal with them, he just his best in prayer and witness to show them who God is. But, he also said his mom came from that extremist Calvinist background. She would do prayer vigils and be on her knees for days, not walking to get around the house. She said she didn't know she was saved, no matter how much he showed her in the Bible. He was very sad for her, and that he couldn't show her the truth, in the Bible she believed in.

Fortunately, I am not an extremist, I know God loves me, and has chosen me as his own. I used to wonder if I was saved as an acting Arminian, because if I sinned, then I could lose my salvation. So my actions were more important than God's actions and truths. Realizing God had chosen me, gave me complete peace of mind. I never doubted God was with me, but too many warnings about how I was "possibly" going to lose my salvation, kept me a battered, and sad Christian. So glad to know my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession,that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10
Funny how God continues to call us elect, chosen, a chosen people, but there is no "Hey, you all chose me, congrats!"

Nope, it always shows that it was God who elected/chose.

It's funny because many keep talking about how they chose God and are reluctant to accept the fact God did that and reluctant to give unto him all the glory. It's apparent they place more faith in choosing themselves into heaven instead of relying on the revealed truth of God's word that he did it all: 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Yes, they trust self more than God.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Do you think Reformed people believe responding to the Gospel is not a voluntary act?

If so, this would not be true. Reformed people believe that God changes the nature through regenerating the person, giving them a heart of flesh to replace their stony heart, and this heart of flesh produces faith and repentance. It is a decision of the will, produced by a new heart that loves God and wants to please him.

Free-willers think that their stony heart dredged up faith and repentance from some isolated corner of it, that was not corrupted by the Fall (or perhaps they don't believe the Fall affected their heart at all), in order to receive this heart of flesh, which makes zero sense :)
Mr. UnitedWithChrist I understand what you believe, and I do understand why you have come to this conclusion, I feel like I am offering option that cuts across this whole debate...which is actually based more on how the Reformers viewed the the response of people to the Gospel.

Faith in Christ is not a work. Faith's role in the reception of eternal life is purely instrumental; an organon leptikon (Martin Luther), like the empty hand of a beggar receiving a gift.

It is not an act of the will, neither is it something that can be dredged up... faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced and convicted.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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Are you sure?

Many in my past have feigned ignorance concerning words like "reformed" in order to make some point about it, and preach a little sermon to me.

One guy in a different forum continually did that, so he could preach a spiel about how Christians shouldn't use "theology", or big words like "apologetics" or "ism" words.

An older Christian should really know what the word "Reformed" means. If not, they can easily google it.
Yes, I do. And just as a kind observation, my remarks to your post has nothing to do with the past. The past is over. Deal with what is in the moment, that's all there is.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,715
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Mr. UnitedWithChrist I understand what you believe, and I do understand why you have come to this conclusion, I feel like I am offering option that cuts across this whole debate...which is actually based more on how the Reformers viewed the the response of people to the Gospel.

Faith in Christ is not a work. Faith's role in the reception of eternal life is purely instrumental; an organon leptikon (Martin Luther), like the empty hand of a beggar receiving a gift.

It is not an act of the will, neither is it something that can be dredged up... faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced and convicted.
Ephesians 1:19 concisely shows that the reason we believe, and the source of that belief (faith) comes from the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and is therefore external, supernatural, not inherent, coming from God. Romans 10:17 declares this as well. 2 Peter 1:1 also shows this faith was obtained, and that from God and his righteousness.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,228
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www.christiancourier.com
Autonomous free will is an equivalent term for libertarian free will.

In essence, they don't believe God exerts an influence on the will of mankind, as they view that to be a form of spiritual rape.

The Reformed position would be that God changes the nature of the unsaved man, giving him a heart of flesh to replace his stony heart, so that he can enter the kingdom of light and exercise faith and repentance. Therefore it is a necessity to save the man, who is dwelling in spiritual darkness, death and sin by nature until he receives this heart of flesh. There is no other way to go from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Has anyone here used the term, spiritual rape, but you? If so please copy and paste their remarks?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Ephesians 1:19 concisely shows that the reason we believe, and the source of that belief (faith) comes from the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and is therefore external, supernatural, not inherent, coming from God. Romans 10:17 declares this as well. 2 Peter 1:1 also shows this faith was obtained, and that from God and his righteousness.
I do see that God strengthens our faith.... and gives faith.
Interesting on 2 Peter 1:1, I will need to explore that further.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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Just so we are clear, I do believe people can respond to the Gospel, the response is not an act of the will.

So on that count I am in neither the free will group nor the TULIP group. :)
Oh well then, no soup for you! :p
If you are old enough to remember the old Seinfeld comedy you'll get that. ;) :D
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,589
702
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No, I have not. I know little of their style though I broadly agree with their theology.

You seem to be somebody of sound judgment. I'll temporarily recant my full support and look through these other threads.

Have you read every thread they've started so as to understand the "battle" they're waging?
I'd think not if you approve their style.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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THATS A TRICKY QUESTION! No will is completely free, so I voted no, there is no such animal as absolutely free will. Reason for this is that we are molded by our environment, our nature, our (sinful) nature and many many things around us.

So do we have a free will to do as we please? YES. The question is: what do we "please" to do? More often than not its "HAVING FUN" and "NEEDING A DAY OFF" from righteousness, thats it. Everyone say Amen in their minds to that as you're reading it, YALL KNOW ITS TRUE. When I was unsaved I wasn't thinking about predestination and free will and the righteousness of God and how to help my fellowman, NO. I was thinking about WHO can I fornicate with next? WHEN can I get smashed, I cant wait!

Now why was it like that? Its because: I had a heart of STONE. Only God can reach down to the miserable sinner and give him the heart of flesh that will then be FREED from sin. (Whoever the Son sets free, is FREE indeed) Before that we are SLAVES to sin, slaves are slaves.
Just like the Bible mentions about can a leopard get rid of its spots? Not really! So it is with the stony heart in rebellion against God, UNLESS God intervenes.

I dont care what ANYONE has to say, thats the truth!
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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That actually misrepresents the truth of Reformed Theology.
Please specify how I misrepresented Reformed theology. I am Reformed, so I know what the teaching is.

God regenerates the sinner, changing their nature, so they freely respond in faith and repentance. It is not a robotic action.

Until then, they reside in the kingdom of darkness and CANNOT make a motion toward God. They MUST be freed. And freedom comes through God moving them out of the realm of darkness into the light.

Decisional regeneration is absurd. Their teaching is that man, with a stony heart, must dredge up faith and repentance from his dead soul in order to gain a heart of flesh.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Mr. UnitedWithChrist I understand what you believe, and I do understand why you have come to this conclusion, I feel like I am offering option that cuts across this whole debate...which is actually based more on how the Reformers viewed the the response of people to the Gospel.

Faith in Christ is not a work. Faith's role in the reception of eternal life is purely instrumental; an organon leptikon (Martin Luther), like the empty hand of a beggar receiving a gift.

It is not an act of the will, neither is it something that can be dredged up... faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced and convicted.
Martin Luther would have taught that faith is a GIFT, not something the person contributes.

It is part and parcel of the benefits of Jesus' atonement, to the elect.

No one expresses true faith outside of the elect, because it is a gift that is imparted by the Holy Spirit. Specifically, it comes with regeneration.

I have no issue with the "instrumental" language, as long as it is understood that regeneration (or being born again) is the cause of faith and repentance, and that it can't be conjured up from a stony heart. The person needs a heart of flesh. Therefore, they must be regenerated, and given spiritual life, prior to this, logically.

In short, all of what you said, or almost all of what you said, is something I would agree with, in the context of regeneration preceding faith. Thus, God is the cause of salvation of his elect.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Please specify how I misrepresented Reformed theology. I am Reformed, so I know what the teaching is.

God regenerates the sinner, changing their nature, so they freely respond in faith and repentance. It is not a robotic action.

Until then, they reside in the kingdom of darkness and CANNOT make a motion toward God. They MUST be freed. And freedom comes through God moving them out of the realm of darkness into the light.

Decisional regeneration is absurd. Their teaching is that man, with a stony heart, must dredge up faith and repentance from his dead soul in order to gain a heart of flesh.
Again this boils down to the WHOSEVER WILL passages, where we must ask, WHO IS IT that wills? Who is the whosever? Someone with a stony heart that hates God? Or someone with a fleshly heart given by God by His grace who then WILLINGLY (not a robot here) responds to the Gospel.

ITS NOT AS DIFFICULT as its made out to be. Only problem is that people hate the idea that I cant choose, there is no voting done around here. SURPRISE SURPRISE: God's Kingdom is not a DEMOCRACY.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Has anyone here used the term, spiritual rape, but you? If so please copy and paste their remarks?
It's the common claim of free-willers....if Reformed theology is correct, then God forces his will on those who are saved.

However, this is not true....God changes the nature so that the person responds in faith and repentance.

Free-willers don't like this, however the free-willer would not claim a paramedic is forcing his will upon him if he is not breathing and dead, in a sense, and the paramedic revives him through life-saving techniques. Not an exact analogy, but it is close.