Does man have a libertarian free will?

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Does man have a libertarian free will?

  • Yes, man has a libertarian free will

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No, man does not have a libertarian free will

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,663
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#81
If someone is at peace with their sin, that's an indication they are not a real believer.
I appreciate your response but I must press the issue, and I do so in a manner which may be incorrectly deemed by some to be extremely disrespectful and may get me banned from this site.

Do you believe that two unmarried, unassuming people who love one another and are sexually active are not true believers? What about individuals who watch pornography? Does this disqualify someone from being a true believer? How does all this coincide with different concepts of free will?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#82
I appreciate your response but I must press the issue, and I do so in a manner which may be incorrectly deemed by some to be extremely disrespectful and may get me banned from this site.

Do you believe that two unmarried, unassuming people who love one another and are sexually active are not true believers? What about individuals who watch pornography? Does this disqualify someone from being a true believer? How does all this coincide with different concepts of free will?
If they are believers, they are not behaving according to their identity in Christ. Believers sometimes fall into grievous sins, even for a long season.

I don't think those individuals love one another, by the way. If they did, then they wouldn't be sexually involved, because it's doing damage to both of them spiritually. They are actually dishonoring Christ in a vulgar way, as the sex act is a covenant sign of marriage which points toward the union of Christ with his church, and isn't to be shared outside of marriage.

Regarding different concepts of free will, the unsaved person is a sinner by nature. Therefore, sin comes naturally to him. The saved person is joined to Christ, and he is sinning against his nature. He has been freed not to sin, according to Romans 6:1-14. However, no believer is totally free of sin, according to 1 John 1:8-10. If we are sinning, we need to confess and be cleansed, and walk in a manner more consistent with our identity in Christ, and our redeemed nature.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
#84
I appreciate your response but I must press the issue, and I do so in a manner which may be incorrectly deemed by some to be extremely disrespectful and may get me banned from this site.

Do you believe that two unmarried, unassuming people who love one another and are sexually active are not true believers? What about individuals who watch pornography? Does this disqualify someone from being a true believer? How does all this coincide with different concepts of free will?
I wouldn't think your remarks but the one to whom you addressed them would be considered possibly worthy of board discipline. Implying someone who does not see things their way is not Christian in a round about turn of phrase is just wrong!
Especially when they repeatedly trumpet that which is anti-Christ, which is the TULIP of the RC.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#85
If they are believers, they are not behaving according to their identity in Christ. Believers sometimes fall into grievous sins, even for a long season.
I absolutely and definitely agree with this... a disconnect and lack of understanding of who they are in Christ!

Amen!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#86
I agree that you cannot save yourself. Man lacks the perfect righteousness that God requires of us. Man does have some good in himself and Jesus told some wicked men that very thing.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Totally unable to save oneself is true but totally unable to respond to the gospel is not true. Salvation is a gift given to unworthy souls because God loves and has mercy upon them while they are in their sin.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Compassion and mercy must have a place in Calvinism or it is merely a cheap knockoff of the true gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen! Unfortunately, the inability to respond to the Gospel is what is now that which some insist must be true.
I've not read anyone claim they can save themselves. Thankfully I missed those posts?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#87
If someone is at peace with their sin, that's an indication they are not a real believer. A real believer mourns his sinfulness.

I think this is not always so ... we can suppress a lot if we want to, even as believers.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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#88
Reformed - a 16th-century movement for the reform of abuses in the Roman Catholic Church ending in the establishment of the Reformed and Protestant Churches.

Here's a series on Reformed theology, if you care to watch it:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/what_is_reformed_theology/

I would also suggest reading a book on church history. Justo Gonzales has a good one.

However, if you just want to crack jokes, without educating yourself so you know common words used within Christianity, continue on :)
Theirs was a simple observation unworthy of your ridicule.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#89
Free will--the ability to choose how to act. : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.

Right here is the crux of the matter. Ppl do not like the thought of being not in control. It's the proverbial "my way or the highway" mentality. I am reminded by this ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’[Luke 19:14]

If they had a child out playing in the street and a car was barreling towards their child, to remain consistent with their free will theology, they wouldn't run and snatch the child away. They should stand there and tell their child, "Honey, there is a car barreling towards you! Please get out of the road!" The child then yells "No!" and keeps on playing. Over and over again, they keep pleading with their child to get out of harm's way, but to no avail. They keep telling them, "Child, I really, really do love you. I want the very best for you and want to come to me and get out of harm's way. But I will not force you to get out of the road. It's up to you to choose what you want to do. I will not force you to come to me. I have a better way for you, but its up to you to choose." Then all of a sudden, SPLAT!!

They stand before a judge and tell them how they handled that situation. Do you think that judge will tell them they did the prudent thing? Absolutely not! He gives them 20+ years in a state pen...if they're lucky.
Thank you so much for letting us know you pay no attention to what free will, (willpower) consists of.

In actuality, your child scenario would occur in the Reformed TULIP Theology precisely so.

The driver is Totally Depraved if they see a child in the street and let their car continue at speed toward said child. The parent of said child would be Totally Depraved for not paying attention to the Totally Depraved child they let play in the street.
Therefore, in the SPLAT aftermath, the driver would be arrested for reckless driving, inattentive driving, vehicular manslaughter. While the parent would be arrested for depraved indifference homicide, child neglect resulting in death.
They'd both likely end up in prison were there just a few of their peers on the jury, in the parents case that would mean, parents. In which case, the world is saved!
From one reckless inattentive driver child killer. And from one unfit parent unable to have more children, being incarcerated, to not pay attention to.

If humans do not have free will–the ability to choose–then actions are morally and religiously insignificant.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
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#90
Theirs was a simple observation unworthy of your ridicule.
Are you sure?

Many in my past have feigned ignorance concerning words like "reformed" in order to make some point about it, and preach a little sermon to me.

One guy in a different forum continually did that, so he could preach a spiel about how Christians shouldn't use "theology", or big words like "apologetics" or "ism" words.

An older Christian should really know what the word "Reformed" means. If not, they can easily google it.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
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#91
Thank you so much for letting us know you pay no attention to what free will, (willpower) consists of.

In actuality, your child scenario would occur in the Reformed TULIP Theology precisely so.

The driver is Totally Depraved if they see a child in the street and let their car continue at speed toward said child. The parent of said child would be Totally Depraved for not paying attention to the Totally Depraved child they let play in the street.
Therefore, in the SPLAT aftermath, the driver would be arrested for reckless driving, inattentive driving, vehicular manslaughter. While the parent would be arrested for depraved indifference homicide, child neglect resulting in death.
They'd both likely end up in prison were there just a few of their peers on the jury, in the parents case that would mean, parents. In which case, the world is saved!
From one reckless inattentive driver child killer. And from one unfit parent unable to have more children to not pay attention to.

If humans do not have free will–the ability to choose–then actions are morally and religiously insignificant.
The phrase "total depravity" really means "radical corruption". It means that every part of man's being has been affected by the Fall.

It does not mean that mankind is as bad as he could be. And, the major reason why he is not is because God restrains evil in this world as a common grace. One can see this played out in Romans 1, where God gives mankind over to his lusts, and causes sinners to be even more evil than they were previously demonstrating.

Why? So their true nature would be more apparent.

I think he does that sometimes to people prior to salvation, by the way, in order to demonstrate to the person that they aren't the good person they think they are. He removes his restraining grace and their wickedness comes to the surface in a way they cannot deny.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#92
Odd, I thought by your posts that you were a member of the Reformed church.
Just so we are clear, I do believe people can respond to the Gospel, the response is not an act of the will.

So on that count I am in neither the free will group nor the TULIP group. :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
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#93
What is your definition of free will?

Does mankind, whom the Bible says is "under sin" (meaning under the power of sin), and slaves to sin, have autonomous, libertarian free will?

No, he does not. He is a slave to sin, and that is not freedom. His nature has been corrupted by virtue of being in Adam.

Yet, he is still responsible for his sinfulness and will be punished eternally for it, outside of Christ.

I provided the example of a fish in a pond. The fish can swim around in the pond all he wants, but he is not free to live on land. That is because he is a fish by nature, and lives in water. Same with the fallen man. His nature is corrupted, and he cannot make godly choices until his nature is changed. His life revolves around life in the kingdom of darkness; he does not dwell in the kingdom of light. His world does not have God as the center of his existence.

Within the kingdom of darkness, there are individuals who practice greater civic virtue, but none are righteous and do good.

Read Romans 1-3...in fact, read the whole book of Romans :)

By the way, God can rightly condemn all mankind, simply because of Adam's sin, and Romans 5 says that all are condemned by Adam's sin.

Of course, that doesn't please free-willers as they will scream "that isn't fair"...but that's what the Bible says. Just like believers are identified with Christ and his righteousness, all of mankind in Adam is identified with Adam and his sin. It isn't fair that the believer benefits from Jesus and his righteousness, but I don't think too many (other than Pelagians) have an issue with that.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,607
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#94
Where can I read more about the theological concept of libertarian free will?

I know it as a term of political philosophy, but have never heard it applied to theology.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#95
Just so we are clear, I do believe people can respond to the Gospel, the response is not an act of the will.

So on that count I am in neither the free will group nor the TULIP group. :)
Do you think Reformed people believe responding to the Gospel is not a voluntary act?

If so, this would not be true. Reformed people believe that God changes the nature through regenerating the person, giving them a heart of flesh to replace their stony heart, and this heart of flesh produces faith and repentance. It is a decision of the will, produced by a new heart that loves God and wants to please him.

Free-willers think that their stony heart dredged up faith and repentance from some isolated corner of it, that was not corrupted by the Fall (or perhaps they don't believe the Fall affected their heart at all), in order to receive this heart of flesh, which makes zero sense :)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#96
What is your definition of free will?

Does mankind, whom the Bible says is "under sin" (meaning under the power of sin), and slaves to sin, have autonomous, libertarian free will?

No, he does not. He is a slave to sin, and that is not freedom. His nature has been corrupted by virtue of being in Adam.

Yet, he is still responsible for his sinfulness and will be punished eternally for it, outside of Christ.

I provided the example of a fish in a pond. The fish can swim around in the pond all he wants, but he is not free to live on land. That is because he is a fish by nature, and lives in water. Same with the fallen man. His nature is corrupted, and he cannot make godly choices until his nature is changed. His life revolves around life in the kingdom of darkness; he does not dwell in the kingdom of light. His world does not have God as the center of his existence.

Within the kingdom of darkness, there are individuals who practice greater civic virtue, but none are righteous and do good.

Read Romans 1-3...in fact, read the whole book of Romans :)

By the way, God can rightly condemn all mankind, simply because of Adam's sin, and Romans 5 says that all are condemned by Adam's sin.

Of course, that doesn't please free-willers as they will scream "that isn't fair"...but that's what the Bible says. Just like believers are identified with Christ and his righteousness, all of mankind in Adam is identified with Adam and his sin. It isn't fair that the believer benefits from Jesus and his righteousness, but I don't think too many (other than Pelagians) have an issue with that.
"Free willers."
I wonder if you feel good thinking those who don't accept your theology are damned by it?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#97
Where can I read more about the theological concept of libertarian free will?

I know it as a term of political philosophy, but have never heard it applied to theology.
If you want to review it from a Reformed perspective, there is a book called No Place for Sovereignty: What's Wrong with Free Will Theism, by R.K. McGregor Wright.

Additionally, here are two audio sermons on this topic:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=518101933226
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573

Here's a simple article too:

https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#98
"Free willers."
I wonder if you feel good thinking those who don't accept your theology are damned by it?
I haven't claimed that.

If you are accusing me of this, please show me where I did.

Otherwise, you are slandering me. I believe Christians can be misinformed on many topics and still be saved.

There are some extremes within free-willer theology that I believe would reflect an unsaved person, such as Pelagianism.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#99
Where can I read more about the theological concept of libertarian free will?

I know it as a term of political philosophy, but have never heard it applied to theology.
Autonomous free will is an equivalent term for libertarian free will.

In essence, they don't believe God exerts an influence on the will of mankind, as they view that to be a form of spiritual rape.

The Reformed position would be that God changes the nature of the unsaved man, giving him a heart of flesh to replace his stony heart, so that he can enter the kingdom of light and exercise faith and repentance. Therefore it is a necessity to save the man, who is dwelling in spiritual darkness, death and sin by nature until he receives this heart of flesh. There is no other way to go from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Your scenario blames the one true victim, the parent. There’s no blame given to the driver or the un-adhering child.
My point is that ppl say God does violate their free will. So, in that scenario, the parent does not violate their child’s desire to play in the road. Any scenario we give, someone can shoot holes in it. But the overall theme is fairly solid.