Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, early church fathers are not infallible authorities.

And, sometimes when someone claimed to be a student of an apostle (or his student), they were overexaggerating their claim.

Scripture is infallible, not early church fathers. Their opinion might give a clue on the reasonableness of a doctrine, though.

The real key is whether a teaching is biblical.

And these principles are biblical:

There is one God (YHVH).
The Father is God (YHVH).
The Son is God (YHVH).
The Holy Spirit is God (YHVH).
These three are distinct Persons, displaying their personhood through inter-Trinitarian relational activity.
These three have eternally existed in loving relationship.
These three are co-essential, sharing the same essence.

This is the core teaching of the Trinity.

If we can identify which point is in dispute it would help.

 

[Diakonos]

-If God were only one person as one being, then He would have to become Love, because there would be no one to love until He created another person. Who would He loving before He created?
-But if God is 3 persons in one being, then God is Love, because there is the possibility of Love in a community; namely the community of the Trinity.
“We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” (1 John 4:16)

 

[just_truth]

Before the incarnation, Jesus only had one nature.

Now, Jesus has two natures, being fully God and fully man.

He is the bridge between humanity and God. He is truly God and truly man.

These two natures are held together in a hypostatic union.

The exact way this works would not be possible for me to explain. I don't think anyone can fully explain it. But, we know that Jesus is just as much a man as any other man, and he is also one Person of the Triune God, YHVH.

Major errors within Christianity are related to the true humanity and true deity of Christ. Heretics tend to deny either one or the other. Both are true, and Scripture teaches both.

Jesus does have a body, as a glorified man, but God does not have a body.

You tell about the hypostatic union, probably the union of God and humanity of Christ. Is that right to say? What proper to say the union of two natures of Christ. On what matter you cannot explain? Pls specify to me. I think the mystery that cannot be fully explained is the manifestation of God in the flesh, I qouted..."And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." -1 Timothy 3:16

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You tell about the hypostatic union, probably the union of God and humanity of Christ. Is that right to say? What proper to say the union of two natures of Christ. On what matter you cannot explain? Pls specify to me. I think the mystery that cannot be fully explained is the manifestation of God in the flesh, I qouted..."And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." -1 Timothy 3:16

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but what I said was that the exact nature of the Incarnation is not something that is clear. Man becoming God is a pretty awesome event. If a man became an ant, and I was an ant, I wouldn't be able to explain this.

There are other things I cannot explain exactly, such as, we know that God has existed forever. How do I explain this? I can't. I am a material being, and everything other than God has a beginning, including me, therefore I cannot conceive of a being who has always existed. I cannot explain how something existed since forever, but I accept it as fact because Scripture teaches it. And, I know Scripture is the Word of God because God used Scripture to convert me in a manner that I cannot deny.

 

[just_truth]

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but what I said was that the exact nature of the Incarnation is not something that is clear. Man becoming God is a pretty awesome event. If a man became an ant, and I was an ant, I wouldn't be able to explain this.

There are other things I cannot explain exactly, such as, we know that God has existed forever. How do I explain this? I can't. I am a material being, and everything other than God has a beginning, including me, therefore I cannot conceive of a being who has always existed. I cannot explain how something existed since forever, but I accept it as fact because Scripture teaches it. And, I know Scripture is the Word of God because God used Scripture to convert me in a manner that I cannot deny.

Anyway thanks for your reply, even though you did come specifically to answer my questions. So you agree that the manifestation of God in the flesh that cannot be explained. How about the Trinity, it is a mystery or not? I think the manifestation of God in the flesh is another thing to the mystery of Trinity, since Trinity is always there before the Incarnation.

 

[biker]

Provide specific references please.

By the way, Trinitarians believe that Jesus was eternally begotten from the Father, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father, therefore there is no conflict. However, there has never been a time when the Son or the Spirit did not exist.

So I am not really sure how you feel like anything above violates the Trinity doctrine. Eternal sonship (begettal) and eternal procession are Trinitarian teachings.

There has never been a time when the Father was not the Father., because as God the Son has eternally existed He didn't become the Father when Jesus was incarnated. But I don't think you are saying that either.

That is the point, these idealisms from the Church Fathers come directly from either a Disciple like John, or they come from having access to the "original manuscripts" like the Aramaic Gospel and the Greek translation. These were not in a BOOK with a Title, Chapter, and Scripture Numbers. These Manuscripts were on the scene 1600 years BEFORE the KJV became a translation of a translation.

Why I love their viewpoint is because it is based off either first hand knowledge, or first hand written knowledge.
Today's "trinity" idealism is based off of multiple translations of translations.

In my opinion, the Church Fathers had a more correct view from their materials than we do from the KJV!

 

[just_truth]

UnitedWithChrist manifestation of God in the flesh is a great mystery according to Scripture, how about the Trinity it is a mystery or not?

 

[just_truth]

UnitedWithChrist manifestation of God in the flesh is a great mystery according to Scripture, how about the Trinity it is a mystery or not?

Is a holy Trinity is a mysterious man-made doctrine was being formulated in AD 300? While the manifestation of God(Father) in the flesh(Christ) is a divine mystery that is no doubt. Will you agree with this statement UnitedWithChrist?

 

[biker]

So what's your point? Did Polycarp teach that Jesus Christ was God biker? And what do you think John 1:18 is teaching?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I think this description claims God, the Word, the Wisdom (Spirit) are all indeed God!

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

 

[biker]

I am not saying they do not believe the trinity. I am saying they explain it according to the materials they had, which I think is better than what we have (KJV).

 

[bluto]

I think this description claims God, the Word, the Wisdom (Spirit) are all indeed God!

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

Before I go any farther on this issue I have a question? According to you how do you understand or what or how do you interprete “sophia?" Do you understand it as a person or as a concept, as a divine entity or as an abstract attribute of God?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Anyway thanks for your reply, even though you did come specifically to answer my questions. So you agree that the manifestation of God in the flesh that cannot be explained. How about the Trinity, it is a mystery or not? I think the manifestation of God in the flesh is another thing to the mystery of Trinity, since Trinity is always there before the Incarnation.

The word "mystery" in the NT actually describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed. That is the meaning of the word generally. A mystery is "some truth that had been hidden in the past, but was eventually revealed by God". So, the Bible uses this word in a different way than we might use it.

The Trinity was a mystery prior to the Incarnation and Pentecost. These two events revealed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct Persons to us.

If you mean "mystery" as far as our normal usage, though, it does not mean that the Trinity or Incarnation cannot be understood at some level. I can understand conceptually that Jesus is both glorified man and God. I can understand that conceptually that God is one, yet three Persons.

I may not be able to understand exactly how this can be true, just like I can't understand how God has existed eternally. I am human, and everything has a beginning. I am one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God. I cannot understand how God became truly man, either.

But, I can understand what the doctrines teach. Some Christians will say that the Trinity is a mystery, and that we cannot fully understand it, so there is no use trying. However, I don't think that's exactly accurate. We can understand the basic points, although we might not understand exactly how it can be.

By the way, Christians use all kinds of false analogies to explain the Trinity. And, they actually end up being confusing to those they are trying to help. It seems like they end up actually teaching people false versions of God's nature, like modalism or tri-theism (three separate gods). So, that doesn't help the situation any.

Are you in the Philippines? I have several Filipino friends who are in ministry there. If you want to email me, send me an email at [email protected].

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That is the point, these idealisms from the Church Fathers come directly from either a Disciple like John, or they come from having access to the "original manuscripts" like the Aramaic Gospel and the Greek translation. These were not in a BOOK with a Title, Chapter, and Scripture Numbers. These Manuscripts were on the scene 1600 years BEFORE the KJV became a translation of a translation.

Why I love their viewpoint is because it is based off either first hand knowledge, or first hand written knowledge.
Today's "trinity" idealism is based off of multiple translations of translations.

In my opinion, the Church Fathers had a more correct view from their materials than we do from the KJV!

I am not a KJV guy so I won't defend it

The Trinity doctrine is not based on translations of translations. It is based on the Bible.

You can find Scriptures that teach each of the following:

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. These three are distinct Persons, co-essential and co-eternal.

This is the essence of the Trinity doctrine.

Regarding the church fathers you mentioned:

1. Some church fathers overexaggerated their relationship to apostles. For instance, someone might have met the apostle or a
student of his, but they were not personally taught by them. Their claims were overexaggerated.
2. Being an early church father doesn't mean infallible knowledge. Those guys contradict one another on basic points.
3. Some of their "writings" are really fraudulent and used their names in an effort to conceal the fraud. Clement is a good example.

Appealing to church fathers is risky business for these reasons. Heretical teachers back then (and today) appeal to them. What matters is what Scripture says.

And, I know that lying cultic leaders attack the Trinity as one of their first matters of business. How do I know that? I was a member of a cult. The Trinity is one of the doctrines they assault. This is because Satan knows if he can cast doubt on this doctrine, he can in effect cause large sections of Scripture to be misunderstood. This is because one doctrinal error has a cascade effect, and causes problems in other doctrines.

The Trinity is a very important doctrine. Once the Trinity is denied, doctrines such as union with Christ are affected. A non-Trinitarian really cannot understand Christianity because once you deny this core doctrine, other teachings are obscured.

There were major doctrines within the NT that were "off limits" to me as a non-Trinitarian.

 

[just_truth]

The word "mystery" in the NT actually describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed. That is the meaning of the word generally. A mystery is "some truth that had been hidden in the past, but was eventually revealed by God". So, the Bible uses this word in a different way than we might use it.

The Trinity was a mystery prior to the Incarnation and Pentecost. These two events revealed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct Persons to us.

If you mean "mystery" as far as our normal usage, though, it does not mean that the Trinity or Incarnation cannot be understood at some level. I can understand conceptually that Jesus is both glorified man and God. I can understand that conceptually that God is one, yet three Persons.

I may not be able to understand exactly how this can be true, just like I can't understand how God has existed eternally. I am human, and everything has a beginning. I am one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God. I cannot understand how God became truly man, either.

But, I can understand what the doctrines teach. Some Christians will say that the Trinity is a mystery, and that we cannot fully understand it, so there is no use trying. However, I don't think that's exactly accurate. We can understand the basic points, although we might not understand exactly how it can be.

By the way, Christians use all kinds of false analogies to explain the Trinity. And, they actually end up being confusing to those they are trying to help. It seems like they end up actually teaching people false versions of God's nature, like modalism or tri-theism (three separate gods). So, that doesn't help the situation any.

Are you in the Philippines? I have several Filipino friends who are in ministry there. If you want to email me, send me an email at [email protected].

You come to explained “mystery” that in the NT describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed and you further elaborate that is some truth that had been hidden in the past but was eventually revealed by God. In the Old Testament the prophets known God is only alone while in the NT scripture tells us God always specified as the Father. How’s that?

Now for clarification, since both Trinity and Incarnation are a mystery. I explained Incarnation as a divine mystery or mystery of godliness as we can read in scripture. Further, it is mysterious how can God always specify in the NT as the Father will manifest in the flesh(Christ) while you explain Trinity as a mystery as you present this explanation “one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God.”

By the way, is this also part of the mystery of Trinity that we might not understand exactly when you tell this to me…”God does not have a body; he is a spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit."... Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man”? I want to clarify it from you.

 

[just_truth]

The word "mystery" in the NT actually describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed. That is the meaning of the word generally. A mystery is "some truth that had been hidden in the past, but was eventually revealed by God". So, the Bible uses this word in a different way than we might use it.

The Trinity was a mystery prior to the Incarnation and Pentecost. These two events revealed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct Persons to us.

If you mean "mystery" as far as our normal usage, though, it does not mean that the Trinity or Incarnation cannot be understood at some level. I can understand conceptually that Jesus is both glorified man and God. I can understand that conceptually that God is one, yet three Persons.

I may not be able to understand exactly how this can be true, just like I can't understand how God has existed eternally. I am human, and everything has a beginning. I am one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God. I cannot understand how God became truly man, either.

But, I can understand what the doctrines teach. Some Christians will say that the Trinity is a mystery, and that we cannot fully understand it, so there is no use trying. However, I don't think that's exactly accurate. We can understand the basic points, although we might not understand exactly how it can be.

By the way, Christians use all kinds of false analogies to explain the Trinity. And, they actually end up being confusing to those they are trying to help. It seems like they end up actually teaching people false versions of God's nature, like modalism or tri-theism (three separate gods). So, that doesn't help the situation any.

Are you in the Philippines? I have several Filipino friends who are in ministry there. If you want to email me, send me an email at [email protected].

You come to explained “mystery” that in the NT describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed and you further elaborate that is some truth that had been hidden in the past but was eventually revealed by God. In the Old Testament the prophets known God is only alone while in the NT scripture tells us God always specified as the Father. How’s that?

Now for clarification, since both Trinity and Incarnation are a mystery. I explained Incarnation as a divine mystery or mystery of godliness as we can read in scripture. Further, it is mysterious how can God always specify in the NT as the Father will manifest in the flesh(Christ) while you explain Trinity as a mystery as you present this explanation “one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God.”

By the way, is this also part of the mystery of Trinity that we might not understand exactly when you tell this to me…”God does not have a body; he is a spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit... Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man” and for the reason, you cannot reply when I ask this question last time to you? I want to clarify it from you.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You come to explained “mystery” that in the NT describes something that was not understood before, but is now being revealed and you further elaborate that is some truth that had been hidden in the past but was eventually revealed by God. In the Old Testament the prophets known God is only alone while in the NT scripture tells us God always specified as the Father. How’s that?

Now for clarification, since both Trinity and Incarnation are a mystery. I explained Incarnation as a divine mystery or mystery of godliness as we can read in scripture. Further, it is mysterious how can God always specify in the NT as the Father will manifest in the flesh(Christ) while you explain Trinity as a mystery as you present this explanation “one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God.”

By the way, is this also part of the mystery of Trinity that we might not understand exactly when you tell this to me…”God does not have a body; he is a spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit."... Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man”? I want to clarify it from you.

I am not sure I fully understand this dialogue.

My point was that the Triune God was not fully revealed in OT Scripture but he is revealed in NT Scripture. Jesus was "God with us". The Holy Spirit is another advocate like Jesus , but not Jesus.

So, the distinctions were not clear until the Incarnation and the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2).

The NT does in fact use the word "God" in many contexts to indicate the Father, but it also displays the Son as being God (John 1:1-3).

These notes may answer your question.

1 Timothy 3:16 3:16 mystery. See note on v. 9. Here Paul refers to things formerly hidden but now made visible by God’s revelatory activity, described in a luminous six-line composite portrait. This activity centers on (1) Christ’s incarnation; (2) Christ’s resurrection, which confirmed his identity as the Son of God (Rom 1:4); (3) the angelic recognition at Christ’s resurrection (Matt 28:2) and ascension (Acts 1:10); (4) the expansive proclamation as Christ’s followers preach throughout the world; (5) Christ’s transformative presence in far-flung believing communities as the gospel message goes forth; and (6) Christ’s glorious triumph, dramatized in the ascension (see Luke 24:50–53; Acts 1:9–11 and notes). There is not, then, strict chronological order to the sequence. Many see poetic or hymnic features in the verse. godliness. Its essence is Christ’s work, received by faith (see note on 2:2).
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
(ESV)

John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(ESV)

This verse says that the Word (Jesus) was with (in a face to face relationship) God (the Father), and the Word was God (in terms of deity).

The Greek word for "with" (pros) indicates a face to face relationship.

Regarding the word "God" I am speaking specifically of the Triune God. The Triune God does not have a body; he is Spirit.

Jesus is both God (meaning he is one Person of the Triune God) and he is glorified man. Jesus is a union of God and man. He is fully God and fully man.

A Person with two natures is not easy to explain. And, Jesus is such a person.

He is called the Theanthropos - the God-man.

By the way, these topics are something that are the topics of church councils, and the Creeds speak of them. Heretics attempt to capitalize on issues like this in order to disillusion the person concerning Christianity, and to drag them into their cultic groups.

You might want to study the Creeds in this regard, and research their Scriptural support.

I think there's some level of difficulty posed by language barriers. If you want a better explanation, I can likely refer you to a Filipino pastor who can explain these concepts to you.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Now for clarification, since both Trinity and Incarnation are a mystery. I explained Incarnation as a divine mystery or mystery of godliness as we can read in scripture. Further, it is mysterious how can God always specify in the NT as the Father will manifest in the flesh(Christ) while you explain Trinity as a mystery as you present this explanation “one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God.”

By the way, is this also part of the mystery of Trinity that we might not understand exactly when you tell this to me…”God does not have a body; he is a spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit."... Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man”? I want to clarify it from you.

Here's what I said:

"I may not be able to understand exactly how this can be true, just like I can't understand how God has existed eternally. I am human, and everything has a beginning. I am one person with one being (body), and I can't conceive of a being who is three persons with one being (Spirit) like God. I cannot understand how God became truly man, either."

To elaborate:

I am a man. My essence is my body. There is one person occupying the one body.

God is different. His essence is spirit. There are three persons occupying the same essence.

In my world, only one person occupies an essence. The essence of humans is the body. In God's word, three persons occupy an essence. The essence of God is spirit.

I might find it difficult to understand how three persons can share an essence, because in my world, only one person occupies an essence.

However, that doesn't make it any less true.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence or being.

Another way of saying this is that they are co-essential. They share the same essence.

The wording is precise to avoid errors. For instance, there are tri-theists who claim that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have their own essences. Therefore, they do not believe that the three Persons are co-essential. In their theology, if you could see God, you would see three separate beings. But, this is not true. The three Persons share the same essence.

I believe that the other view would be called Semi-Arianism.

If you want to read more about Semi-Arianism, see this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Arianism

 

[Dave-L]

I call the "Oneness" view "the Norman Bates Psycho Jesus" Because Norman, in the 50's Hitchcock thriller, Psycho, changed into the mother. And then back again into the Son. And it depicts God as crazy by any standards.

 

[just_truth]

I am not sure I fully understand this dialogue.

My point was that the Triune God was not fully revealed in OT Scripture but he is revealed in NT Scripture. Jesus was "God with us". The Holy Spirit is another advocate like Jesus , but not Jesus.

So, the distinctions were not clear until the Incarnation and the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2).

The NT does in fact use the word "God" in many contexts to indicate the Father, but it also displays the Son as being God (John 1:1-3).

These notes may answer your question.

1 Timothy 3:16 3:16 mystery. See note on v. 9. Here Paul refers to things formerly hidden but now made visible by God’s revelatory activity, described in a luminous six-line composite portrait. This activity centers on (1) Christ’s incarnation; (2) Christ’s resurrection, which confirmed his identity as the Son of God (Rom 1:4); (3) the angelic recognition at Christ’s resurrection (Matt 28:2) and ascension (Acts 1:10); (4) the expansive proclamation as Christ’s followers preach throughout the world; (5) Christ’s transformative presence in far-flung believing communities as the gospel message goes forth; and (6) Christ’s glorious triumph, dramatized in the ascension (see Luke 24:50–53; Acts 1:9–11 and notes). There is not, then, strict chronological order to the sequence. Many see poetic or hymnic features in the verse. godliness. Its essence is Christ’s work, received by faith (see note on 2:2).
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
(ESV)

John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(ESV)

This verse says that the Word (Jesus) was with (in a face to face relationship) God (the Father), and the Word was God (in terms of deity).

The Greek word for "with" (pros) indicates a face to face relationship.

Regarding the word "God" I am speaking specifically of the Triune God. The Triune God does not have a body; he is Spirit.

Jesus is both God (meaning he is one Person of the Triune God) and he is glorified man. Jesus is a union of God and man. He is fully God and fully man.

A Person with two natures is not easy to explain. And, Jesus is such a person.

He is called the Theanthropos - the God-man.

By the way, these topics are something that are the topics of church councils, and the Creeds speak of them. Heretics attempt to capitalize on issues like this in order to disillusion the person concerning Christianity, and to drag them into their cultic groups.

You might want to study the Creeds in this regard, and research their Scriptural support.

I think there's some level of difficulty posed by language barriers. If you want a better explanation, I can likely refer you to a Filipino pastor who can explain these concepts to you.

I am not particular about the Creeds, can I have a copy of the Creeds from you?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am not particular about the Creeds, can I have a copy of the Creeds from you?

I can give you links to them.

Actually if you wanted some materials I could mail them to you but not until after Covid 19.