Don't choke the BABY! Let new Christians drink their milk before you force feed them

[pottersclay]

Okay Willie, do you feel fully heard now.

Can we move forward? Or will you throw a tantrum? (should I make some smiley faces to make you feel better about the comment?)

Wow just wow Ariel a little higher with the soap box....and this and some of the other comments you made to push the point across. Go ahead put me on ignore if that's the way you deal with things.

Got a little story to tell you about a man who wanted to become a Shepard. After reading all the books he could find he decided to go observe shepherding first hand. He went to a pasture and waited. It wasn't long before he heard a man and his flock approaching. Upon observing him he noticed that the man was yelling at the sheep. Making rude comments ignoring the blats of discontent of the sheep and pushing them beyond there stride. Hurrying them as if he only mattered to seek rest in the shade.
This was quite a shock to the would be Shepard because the books he read said the total opposite of what he was observing.
So he called over to the man leading the flock and asked him "do you always Shepard like this?" .
In which the man replied "the shepherds are over the next hill sir I am the butcher.

 

[PeterJens]

Telling people to "Repent of their sins" or "stop sinning" when they hear the gospel message is not telling the true gospel.

People who live in "nice" societies, where sin is hidden, and people want to appear
righteous good people who care, these kind of statements are made, because sin
is not on show.

If you live in a society where sin is on show, you will know how sick and dangerous
such a place is. No security, no justice, murder, theft, rape, abuse is everywhere,
and everyone is just living to survive, dog eat dog.

So in a real sense of stop sinning this is not a problem, but stopping sin in a hyper
legalistic way, no fear, no lack of trust, no criticism, nothing done from self, that
is impossible, a world of true total condemnation and continual failure, hell on
earth.

So I cannot agree with these guys and their word games, their redefinition of Gods
gospel and simple truths about love and righteousness, just because they are too distorted
and corrupted to know what purity actually is.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh Ariel. I'M m so sorry. It's heartbreaking but at the same time He is blessing you. Don't ever doubt that. We always see the blessing after the pressing. Gah! That rhymes, sorry. You have encouraged me by your example of refusing to stop walking in the Spirit. and I've learned so much in your thread. And of course you know what a blessing you graced me with this morning. You are a dear sister. I said I would be back but it will have to wait til tomorrow now. If they ever overly discourage you, it is always best to go away to a quiet place with our Lord. I know you already know that.

 

[Grace777x70]

What are your thoughts on these scriptures?

Do you know of others we should all look at and discuss?

My belief ( altho I have never really studied this - this is just from my church teachings ) is that we will get a new glorified body when Jesus comes back to earth. This body will be immortal, incorruptible.

This scripture that you had posted below has lot's of different views on it.

Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;


Honestly I don't know what to make of it. It appears that these saints had their bodies raised from the dead. Did they continue to live on the earth and die again? Did they go to be with the Lord when He ascended in that "cloud"?

 

[royalscot]

What are your thoughts on these scriptures?

Do you know of others we should all look at and discuss?

you break one sin you break them all.
since repent or believe, has nothing to do with what you did for your self. either way you , still call on a saviour to save you. or die in unbelief. the second part, who will raise you. if you fall back to gal 5. 1-4 already quoted.

and that choice is up to you, what you believe happen. if you don t take everything you read in the bible , and don t come to conclusion. you fall back like adam and eve, conned in to a false understanding.

ask seek and knock etc to find your own understanding. (read you bible, pray for understanding, and grow your understanding. etc
priest , rabbi or religion teacher etc will not answer for you, on that day.

you are under grace a gift. not condemnation from an other human, or human government, yet they have there own laws to there lands. called crime. yet every human is under a gods understanding, not a human understanding.
thats why most western law makers have a tax bill , for hospital, prison and armies etc and have trouble trying to govern a correct understanding to what is good or bad. thats why free will was given to all humans. and god left that message in the bible.
so you have a choice to understand at your level. jesus summed it up with the golden rule or rules.

 

[royalscot]

read is not hearing. it asks you to come to your own conclusion. listening asks the same thing, called testing the scripture.
for example
what law do you repent from. was never answered. only bypassed. was that because they could not answer, or did not understand the question.

so logic is back here.
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Ariel82]

Wow just wow Ariel a little higher with the soap box....and this and some of the other comments you made to push the point across. Go ahead put me on ignore if that's the way you deal with things.

Got a little story to tell you about a man who wanted to become a Shepard. After reading all the books he could find he decided to go observe shepherding first hand. He went to a pasture and waited. It wasn't long before he heard a man and his flock approaching. Upon observing him he noticed that the man was yelling at the sheep. Making rude comments ignoring the blats of discontent of the sheep and pushing them beyond there stride. Hurrying them as if he only mattered to seek rest in the shade.
This was quite a shock to the would be Shepard because the books he read said the total opposite of what he was observing.
So he called over to the man leading the flock and asked him "do you always Shepard like this?" .
In which the man replied "the shepherds are over the next hill sir I am the butcher.

"This over-pushing of having to be PC so that some Snowflake's sensibilities aren't bruised is half the reason our country is in a death spiral."


I am not a shepherd or a butcher, just a sheep seeking pasture and following my Shepherd. He told me we could rest after we get to the next till top, but some of the other sheep want to debate if the wolves really mean what they say or if they might be lying. Personally I would rather listen to my Shepherd and discuss His words.

If I have to be a fool by copying the behavior of fools to make a point, I accept your rebuke. It is inappropriate. Yet wouldn't want to be accused of "overpushing of have to be pc"

Yeah I put people in ignore so I remember to pray for them before posting.

I don't actually ignore/not read what they say. I just take a few seconds to ask God to help me understand what they are trying to convey, look past their insults and tone and learn to see the merit in their comments. Try and respond to the point they are trying to make, rather than be offended by their tone, insults, insisting on misunderstanding what is said to them or any other emotional response.

Yes I made the concious decision to make the comment to see if he actually meant what he said about not caring if people were pc.

Obviously tolerance only applies to people whose ideas you agree with.

 

[PeterJens]

read is not hearing. it asks you to come to your own conclusion. listening asks the same thing, called testing the scripture.
for example
what law do you repent from. was never answered. only bypassed. was that because they could not answer, or did not understand the question.

so logic is back here.
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

I am mulling over what is being blamed as the cause of the failure of faith by various
contributors.

For some it is legalism as expressed as religious self rightousness.
This is the thing they blame for their lack of relationship with God, so anyone who in
their eyes in a religious self righteous individual they are the enemy.

Now my focus is on our lack of communion with God.
This leads us to hurt, sin and lostness, and finally death.
Our salvation is establishing a relationship with God through Christ and following Him
and His ways.

Unfortunately for me, I am now the enemy of the legalist hunters. Well as long as
that means we can not be confused, amen, and Praise the Lord.

 

[Ariel82]

Royalscout, we repent from the law of sin and death, which is the old covenant give to Moses.

 

[Ariel82]

Let's not divide ourselves into "us" versus "them" PeterJens.

 

[Ariel82]

I will admit. That I am annoyed and frustrated. I have tried my best to understand everyone's position. I don't strive to get us all to agree. Just clearly state what we believe and why. The only person who can change our minds is the Holy Spirit. He will show us the truth and trains us to walk in His ways.

If I have offended you Willie, I apologize. Your jabs were starting to annoy me. I thought if I jabbed back, you might stop.

If you really don't think we are listening to you, then I politely ask you to stop talking to is.

However, if you actually want to have a conversation, then your insights would be helpful to others reading through this long thread.

I found the article you posted useful and agreed with many of the points. It helped explained your previous statements and biases.

However I hope you listen when people tell you that just because many misunderstand what it means to "turn from sin" does not mean it shouldn't be preached.

From what I gathered from the article and your comments, you would prefer if people focused on preaching that people "turning to God" and that by its nature will cause them to turn from sin.

Is that a correct or incorrect statement?

Or will you just insult me again?

 

[PeterJens]

Let's not divide ourselves into "us" versus "them" PeterJens.

I understand your desire, but if repentance is just agreeing with God, and all sin is now forgiven,
and nothing stops salvation in belief or behaviour, no law can be referenced as a guide or
principles simply expressed except general ethics which are not scriptural, it is hard not to
conclude there by definition a "us" and "them" exists.

Now I have no problems defining differences, and even working through the theology, but
some seem to feel this is malice, and evil, with hatred and bitterness. These are not neutral
ideas, but actual accusations and condemnation.

My frame of reference is actions individually carry personal responsibility before the Lord.
Jesus's sinlessness matter, and every action he performed. So equally we walk and stand
in the same arena on the same basis when walking as he walked. Without this foundation
it is hard to talk in a truly christian context, as this is the milk of the faith.

The trick of some is to turn sin into not a relationship breaking event, but a smudge, an
error already resolved, so no big deal. Like adultery in a marriage is not a marriage
breaking event. Jesus is not so generous, hell, heaven, acceptance, rejection hang on
such ideas.

Purity in the heart is the key, which I had not grasped before with an open heart.
I would gather you are walking this road, so I say amen. But unity with those who
despise such theology, I think not, without a spiritual revelation, but the words and truths
are already there, and have been rejected.

 

[Ariel82]

I guess we would discuss dividing the sheep and goats in our talk about judgement.

Though truthfully, I need a break to pray and be healed. So I will come back after finding peace with my Lord.

 

[Ariel82]

Psalm 19
Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.

 

[zone]

I understand your desire, but if repentance is just agreeing with God, and all sin is now forgiven,
and nothing stops salvation in belief or behaviour, no law can be referenced as a guide or
principles simply expressed except general ethics which are not scriptural, it is hard not to
conclude there by definition a "us" and "them" exists.

Now I have no problems defining differences, and even working through the theology, but
some seem to feel this is malice, and evil, with hatred and bitterness. These are not neutral
ideas, but actual accusations and condemnation.

My frame of reference is actions individually carry personal responsibility before the Lord.
Jesus's sinlessness matter, and every action he performed. So equally we walk and stand
in the same arena on the same basis when walking as he walked. Without this foundation
it is hard to talk in a truly christian context, as this is the milk of the faith.

The trick of some is to turn sin into not a relationship breaking event, but a smudge, an
error already resolved, so no big deal. Like adultery in a marriage is not a marriage
breaking event. Jesus is not so generous, hell, heaven, acceptance, rejection hang on
such ideas.

Purity in the heart is the key, which I had not grasped before with an open heart.
I would gather you are walking this road, so I say amen. But unity with those who
despise such theology, I think not, without a spiritual revelation, but the words and truths
are already there, and have been rejected.

do you agree that careful listening/hearing/study is the way the Holy Spirit works in us to repent if we're straying?
regular church attendance with Law & Gospel is pretty important for conviction and comfort.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Here are notes on Strong's G907 – baptizō (bold mine):

"Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)

This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptize) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[Desertsrose]

John 11:25

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[PeterJens]

do you agree that careful listening/hearing/study is the way the Holy Spirit works in us to repent if we're straying?
regular church attendance with Law & Gospel is pretty important for conviction and comfort.

After reading and seeing the power of scripture on my soul, an open heart, with the people of God
listening to the word, being ministered to by the Holy Spirit is the only way.

The whole of Gods heart is not constrained by scripture, scripture is merely a reflection of the whole
which is probably infinite and never ending. So we know when each aspects speaks Gods heart to us
we are getting close to the King. And to our minds the Lord is not like us at all, so close yet also
so dangerous, so familiar, yet something we can easily get very very wrong. Moses, one lost
moment, and entering the promised land gone.

In the Lord there is only one way, further on ... a road to glory and praise to His wonderful Son and
Holy Spirit and the Father of all.

 

[Desertsrose]

John 5:28,29

Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[Desertsrose]

John 6:54
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.