Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

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Apr 22, 2016
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#41
funny how you found the light, then after you left,
you fell back into your own very bad habits, by your admission.
and now you have a grudge againest them that is not healthy,
and now you even say you fall asleep while praying.


Did you take off your breastplate of righteousness
Havent you ever had the Lord lull you to sleep when you were praying? I have.
Those times when I just kept praying because something was weighing heavy on my heart. I just prayed for everyone and kept praying. God saw my heart. He saw I was trying to focus on others and not myself. He had mercy on me and put me to sleep so I could rest.
Dont ever stand in judgement of someone falling asleep while they are praying. Many a time it is God who puts them in their sweet slumber.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#42
Havent you ever had the Lord lull you to sleep when you were praying? I have.
Those times when I just kept praying because something was weighing heavy on my heart. I just prayed for everyone and kept praying. God saw my heart. He saw I was trying to focus on others and not myself. He had mercy on me and put me to sleep so I could rest.
Dont ever stand in judgement of someone falling asleep while they are praying. Many a time it is God who puts them in their sweet slumber.
I think that can happen too.

There's a peacefulness to be in the presence of God that can be relaxing.

However I think mine is a health issue due to sleep apnea. I don't get as much restful sleep as I need.
 
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thepsalmist

Guest
#43
True christians dont run away. They defend the truth. just sayin
Matthew 10

13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#44
this hatred is becoming something that is palpable....

it is infecting this forum and driving Christians away...
If you're talking about me, I would point out that I have no issue with Sabbath observers..in fact I applaud their desire to obey God, even if I disagree on their doctrinal understanding regarding that issue. In fact, I count many of them as my friends :)

I do have an issue with those who claim non-observers are unsaved or in disobedience to God, though. I think they should extend the same honor of liberality to those who meet on Sunday that they expect of other Christians.

And, I am not shy with presenting the opposite viewpoint from my convictions as an ex-observer. Dr. Brown's audios are pretty good in terms of providing answers on the typical points Sabbath observers would use to convince non observers that they need to keep the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

Armstrongites are a separate issue, though. They need their sin exposed. Claiming that they are going to be fully God like God the Father and Jesus Christ in the resurrection is blasphemy.

I'm also not a fan of their mockery. Being one of them in the past, I used to laugh at such mockery, but no longer. In their congregations, they ridicule other Christians as being blind and talk about "sickening sweet Protestantism" as a matter of course. They believe that they are the sum of all wisdom, and that other Christians are spiritually blinded and unsaved.

Those who are Armstrongites might remember the "evangelist" Gerald Waterhouse. He used to travel from church to church mocking non-Armstrongite Christians. He was the epitome of this behavior. Funny how he never talked about Jesus Christ and salvation that is available through placing your faith in Him and his perfect sacrifice. What kind of evangelist never talks about that? It's laughable that he was considered an evangelist, but Armstrong's "gospel" was no better.

Note, as well, that I don't invite the Armstrongites to comment on my threads, If they want to comment, they face the possibility of interaction with me. :) So, they are not hapless victims.

And, make no mistake about it..Armstrongites accuse other Christians of being "so-called Christians" worshipping a "counterfeit Christ" preaching a "false gospel" and observing a "counterfeit Christianity", who are the "synagogue of Satan" and whose pastors are "ministers of Satan". They are as much a cult as JWs or Mormons. They fly under the radar screen with most due to their "Church of God" names.

I don't hate them anyways. I hope they reject Armstrong's false theology and his contentious attitude toward real, orthodox Christianity and repent. Perhaps the Lord will grant some of them repentance...I hope so.
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,389
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#45
As a former Sabbathkeeper, I listen to some debates or discussions about the topic of "boundary marker" commandments from the Mosaic Covenant.

"Boundary marker" commandments are those commandments that were meant to keep ancient Israel distinct from the Gentile nations. They are not objective moral commandments. I would include the Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meat laws, physical circumcision, and dress prohibitions within those commandments. There was also an aspect that they were shadows or types of spiritual realities. For instance, the Sabbath was a type of the spiritual rest that Christians have through placing their faith in Jesus Christ...a rest from dead works and trying to justify yourself before God on the basis of them (Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:9-10).

I have no issue with those who want to observe Sabbath, though, if they have no issue with those Christians who have church meetings on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. Paul is plain that this sort of tolerance should be part of the church in Romans 14. It's rebels which claim Sunday observers are under the mark of the Beast or are being disobedient to God that ruffle my feathers. And, early Christianity ws unfair to ethnic Jews in the past, who wanted to maintain cultural elements of their heritage while continuing to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. I've been studying this in a book called Introduction to Messianic Judaism.

Dr. Michael Brown, who is a Messianic Jew himself, answered questions from callers on the topic of the Sabbath in a recent broadcast. His position, like that of many Messianic Jews, is that he observes these boundary marker commandments (he may not use that term by the way..it's my term adopted from other scholoars), but does not claim that others, Gentile or Jew, need to observe them. A lot of the answers he gives in this audio are the same as the explanations I would give as an ex-Sabbathkeeper and I will be listening to more of his audios on these topics.

I realize he's not well liked amongst some in the Hebrew Roots Movement because he dispels some of their bad notions, including claiming that the Hebrew pictographic alphabet provides extra insight into Scripture. The HRM assertions are similar to the Bible code stuff, where the adherents claim that secret messages are encoded in Scripture, and that if you only had the key (in their case, the Hebrew pictographic alphabet), you would understand them. Dr. Michael Brown possesses a PhD in Semitic Languages (Hebrew) from a decent university, so his word trumps theirs, in my opinion, plus I am not much for claiming that God intentionally tries to hide meaning from Christians. I think the text speaks plainly for itself.

He's also dispelled the notion of some Hebrew Roots Movement people , which claim the New Testament or parts of it were written originally in Hebrew. He notes that there is NO manuscript evidence to support this claim. Even if there was manuscript evidence, it would be meaningless because the New Testament writings were translated into MANY languages. That's part of the beauty of the Greek language. It was the universal trade language at the time, and someone in just about every nation understood it. So, they could take the writings and translate them into their own language for the benefit of all. This enabled the writings to be disseminated over a wide area quickly.

I'm also not real fond of the assertions of some within this group that we, as Western thinking Christians, are inferior because we don't understand the Hebrew mindset. About every seminary trains students in some level of original language, AND about the underlying culture and customs of the writers, so the claims of the Hebrew Roots Movement on this issue are overstated, and reflect a strong false pride...reminds me of the Armstrongites I hung out with as a young Christian.

Anyways, I love Dr. Brown's soundness on this topic. He brings a voice of sanity into the Messianic Jew camp. My understanding is that Jews for Jesus as a whole are balanced when it comes to these issues.

Here's the link to the audio:

The Sabbath Debate Continues : Line of Fire

I enjoyed listening to it, and if you are interested in the topic, you might enjoy it as well.

The previous day's broadcast is related and you might want to listen to it first, although it is more specifically about SDAs:

What Do Seventh Day Adventists Believe? : Line of Fire

I do not agree with Dr. Michael Brown on his charismatic positions, but he is very good on topics like Messianic Judaism, Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws and the Torah. His theology is quite a bit different than mine on other topics such as the Brownsville revival, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and agree with his teachings on the topic of the boundary marker commandments.
Considering the fact that the only threads you reply to are about the Sabbath and oblique references, such as three days and three night, this subject must be eating at you.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#46
Considering the fact that the only threads you reply to are about the Sabbath and oblique references, such as three days and three night, this subject must be eating at you.
You haven't reviewed all my threads. I challenge your assertion. Ask the anti-church attendance people if I post about other things :)

I do enjoy discussing the Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law issues though. I've had to work through false teachings in that regard myself, so I am equipped to refute their bad argumentation. I realize that ruffles your feathers.

By the way, if the new heavens and new earth are populated by unrepentant Armstrongite Gods, I'd rather go to eternal punishment. I can't handle spending eternity with Herbert Armstrong clones. That would be intolerable :)

I think it's eating at you that I can provide reasonable responses to your arguments on these topics, and that I expose your God Family doctrine.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#47
Here's another video specifically on the Sabbath by Dr. Michael Brown. It's only 5 minutes long.

It is a very good synopsis of the biblical teaching on the issue.

I think the most important parts are 1) the Sabbath was never given to Gentiles and 2) we shouldn't judge those who observe or don't observe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zoAgrO34Po

Unfortunately, there are Christians who demand that the Sabbath applies to all believers (and judge non-observers as unsaved, disobedient or ignorant), and there are Christians who accuse Sabbath observers of trying to justify or sanctify themselves through elements of the Mosaic Covenant that they disagree upon. Both extremes are wrong.

I would fellowship with a Messianic Jew group like Dr. Michael Brown's, if they had a non-judging, gospel focus like he does, but I wouldn't associate with the judgmental group above whatsoever. Unfortunately there's not one around me, so I will continue with my fabulous Evangelical Free fellowship.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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#48
As a former Sabbathkeeper, I listen to some debates or discussions about the topic of "boundary marker" commandments from the Mosaic Covenant.

"Boundary marker" commandments are those commandments that were meant to keep ancient Israel distinct from the Gentile nations. They are not objective moral commandments. I would include the Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meat laws, physical circumcision, and dress prohibitions within those commandments. There was also an aspect that they were shadows or types of spiritual realities. For instance, the Sabbath was a type of the spiritual rest that Christians have through placing their faith in Jesus Christ...a rest from dead works and trying to justify yourself before God on the basis of them (Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:9-10).

I have no issue with those who want to observe Sabbath, though, if they have no issue with those Christians who have church meetings on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. Paul is plain that this sort of tolerance should be part of the church in Romans 14. It's rebels which claim Sunday observers are under the mark of the Beast or are being disobedient to God that ruffle my feathers. And, early Christianity ws unfair to ethnic Jews in the past, who wanted to maintain cultural elements of their heritage while continuing to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. I've been studying this in a book called Introduction to Messianic Judaism.

Dr. Michael Brown, who is a Messianic Jew himself, answered questions from callers on the topic of the Sabbath in a recent broadcast. His position, like that of many Messianic Jews, is that he observes these boundary marker commandments (he may not use that term by the way..it's my term adopted from other scholoars), but does not claim that others, Gentile or Jew, need to observe them. A lot of the answers he gives in this audio are the same as the explanations I would give as an ex-Sabbathkeeper and I will be listening to more of his audios on these topics.

I realize he's not well liked amongst some in the Hebrew Roots Movement because he dispels some of their bad notions, including claiming that the Hebrew pictographic alphabet provides extra insight into Scripture. The HRM assertions are similar to the Bible code stuff, where the adherents claim that secret messages are encoded in Scripture, and that if you only had the key (in their case, the Hebrew pictographic alphabet), you would understand them. Dr. Michael Brown possesses a PhD in Semitic Languages (Hebrew) from a decent university, so his word trumps theirs, in my opinion, plus I am not much for claiming that God intentionally tries to hide meaning from Christians. I think the text speaks plainly for itself.

He's also dispelled the notion of some Hebrew Roots Movement people , which claim the New Testament or parts of it were written originally in Hebrew. He notes that there is NO manuscript evidence to support this claim. Even if there was manuscript evidence, it would be meaningless because the New Testament writings were translated into MANY languages. That's part of the beauty of the Greek language. It was the universal trade language at the time, and someone in just about every nation understood it. So, they could take the writings and translate them into their own language for the benefit of all. This enabled the writings to be disseminated over a wide area quickly.

I'm also not real fond of the assertions of some within this group that we, as Western thinking Christians, are inferior because we don't understand the Hebrew mindset. About every seminary trains students in some level of original language, AND about the underlying culture and customs of the writers, so the claims of the Hebrew Roots Movement on this issue are overstated, and reflect a strong false pride...reminds me of the Armstrongites I hung out with as a young Christian.

Anyways, I love Dr. Brown's soundness on this topic. He brings a voice of sanity into the Messianic Jew camp. My understanding is that Jews for Jesus as a whole are balanced when it comes to these issues.

Here's the link to the audio:

The Sabbath Debate Continues : Line of Fire

I enjoyed listening to it, and if you are interested in the topic, you might enjoy it as well.

The previous day's broadcast is related and you might want to listen to it first, although it is more specifically about SDAs:

What Do Seventh Day Adventists Believe? : Line of Fire

I do not agree with Dr. Michael Brown on his charismatic positions, but he is very good on topics like Messianic Judaism, Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws and the Torah. His theology is quite a bit different than mine on other topics such as the Brownsville revival, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and agree with his teachings on the topic of the boundary marker commandments.
Don't know if you know this about Michael but he is a Kababalist... I would advise to steer clear of him and his teachings. Check out his video on Kabbalah and see what you think.

[video]https://youtu.be/dta1VCYkXtg[/video]
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#49
Considering the fact that the only threads you reply to are about the Sabbath and oblique references, such as three days and three night, this subject must be eating at you.
Sparkman has posted on a broad range of stuff. I've seen few sabbath threads from him for a good while.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#50
Don't know if you know this about Michael but he is a Kababalist... I would advise to steer clear of him and his teachings. Check out his video on Kabbalah and see what you think.

[video]https://youtu.be/dta1VCYkXtg[/video]
Michael Brown a kabbalahist. Very doubtful. Sounds like gossip.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#51
Don't know if you know this about Michael but he is a Kababalist... I would advise to steer clear of him and his teachings. Check out his video on Kabbalah and see what you think.

[video]https://youtu.be/dta1VCYkXtg[/video]
What is the synopsis of Dr. Brown's understanding of Kabbalah? I haven't listen to it yet. Is he just describing what the Kabbalah really meant to a Jew and not the religion that it has turned into now? Sometimes people do that to try to use Jewish traditions and apply them to the new life in Christ.

I don't know as I'm just thinking out loud here without watching to see what he is really saying about Kabbalah. I usually don't have any interest in things like this so I just leave it alone but if you have watched it - I am willing to listen to what you heard in the video.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#52
Don't know if you know this about Michael but he is a Kababalist... I would advise to steer clear of him and his teachings. Check out his video on Kabbalah and see what you think.

[video]https://youtu.be/dta1VCYkXtg[/video]
I think what Dr. Brown was saying in this video is that the Kabbalah attempts to provide some answers to questions that Christianity answers, not that it is a source of enlightenment.

He did quote a story from the Kabbalah that talked about a Messiah figure that took sin upon himself, but my guess is his reference was similar to that of Paul when he quoted pagan writings. He wasn't saying the Kabbalah writings were inspired.

I would be surprised if he was really a Kabbalist. I think he was using the teachings of Kabbalah as a bridge to discuss the gospel with some who might be involved with Kabbalah.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#53
What is the synopsis of Dr. Brown's understanding of Kabbalah? I haven't listen to it yet. Is he just describing what the Kabbalah really meant to a Jew and not the religion that it has turned into now? Sometimes people do that to try to use Jewish traditions and apply them to the new life in Christ.

I don't know as I'm just thinking out loud here without watching to see what he is really saying about Kabbalah. I usually don't have any interest in things like this so I just leave it alone but if you have watched it - I am willing to listen to what you heard in the video.
See my comments above. This is what I took from this particular video. He was just using Kabbalah as a discussion point to say that the questions Kabbalah attempts to answer are in Christ and the gospel. He wasn't affirming Kabbalah's inspiration from what I understood.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#54
I watched the video. Brown was simply explaining that the mysteries of GOD sought by kabbalahists is found in Jesus. He rightly says that kabalahism was a Jewish manifestation of gnostic ideas.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#55
See my comments above. This is what I took from this particular video. He was just using Kabbalah as a discussion point to say that the questions Kabbalah attempts to answer are in Christ and the gospel. He wasn't affirming Kabbalah's inspiration from what I understood.
Ok..thanks. Sometimes we can see a certain word like "kabbalah" and it can trigger us and we can think someone is endorsing it but when we look closer and listen to what is actually being said - we can see the difference.

Dr. Brown, like all of us is good in some areas and not so good in others and people like what is being said in any area depending on their own views too.

Then there are people that are against him because he doesn't share the same views in one area. ( not saying this was the case in this discussion on kabbalah - just making a general point )

I do read his articles that come to my email and he does have some good thoughts on many areas and I do learn things from him.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#56
Sparkman has posted on a broad range of stuff. I've seen few sabbath threads from him for a good while.
My position with regards to Sabbath observance is that I have no problem with observers, as long as they don't claim it is a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation, and don't declare others unsaved or spiritually inferior due to non-observance. I applaud the desire of observers to please God, whether I agree with them on this subject, as long as they are respectful of non-observers. Most of them are at some level.

john832 doesn't care much for my comments or threads concerning the Sabbath because they challenge his assertion that the Sabbath IS a requirement or condition of salvation.

There are a few ex-Armstrongites here who have issues with me due to my former association with them. john832 is one of them.

Thanks for noting that I post on a variety of subjects :)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#57
So, if your remark concerning the breastplate of righteousness means you think I've lost my salvation, no, I haven't. I can't lose it. I'm eternally secure. And, God knows my health issues as well, and he knows how much I hate falling asleep in prayer. Regardless, you're not my fruit inspector :)
hmmm... what happened to prove-all? That comment about taking off your breast plate of righteousness and the implication that you lost your salvation reminds me of a comment that a woman who attended the church of Christ (that I temporarily attended) several years ago made to me after I left that church. She asked me if I have "remained faithful?" Her implication was, do I still attend the church of Christ and if the answer is no then the implication is that I have not remained faithful - (Revelation 2:10) and have lost my salvation. :rolleyes:
 
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sparkman

Guest
#58
hmmm... what happened to prove-all? That comment about taking off your breast plate of righteousness and the implication that you lost your salvation reminds me of a comment that a woman who attended the church of Christ (that I temporarily attended) several years ago made to me after I left that church. She asked me if I have "remained faithful?" Her implication was, do I still attend the church of Christ and if the answer is no then the implication is that I have not remained faithful - (Revelation 2:10) and have lost my salvation. :rolleyes:
prove-all told me once before that he thought I'd lost my "saltiness" and implied I had lost my salvation because I no longer followed Armstrongism. So, it could be that's what he meant. It's hard to say.

Armstrongism is very exclusive in that it claims to be "the Truth", and that Sunday observers are part of the Great Prostitute of Revelation 17. When I was an Armstrongite, they didn't even consider other Sabbath observers to be saved either..only Armstrongites. I suspect it's the same way now.

I'd better not make too many comments, though. Apparently some here think I'm delusional for presenting the other side of the Sabbath argument, and for addressing some of these guys. I might be delusional in the sense that I think it might do some good :D
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#59
Law and Grace go together like oil and water. They do not mix.

[FONT=&quot]EPH.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[8] FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; [/FONT]

HEBREWS 11 [28] THROUGH FAITH HE KEPT THE PASSOVER, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Seems Moses aint buyin what your selling. Hes found in Hebrews keeping the law by grace through faith
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,057
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#60
II the OT they were to give sacrifice on the Sabbath and do no work. But, yet the priest and the levites profaned the Sabbath by killing animals and doing the work of the temple, did they not. Why were they excused, it was a ton of work that had to be performed according to the law. Why would you carry that same burden over to the NT where grace abounds.
Because God told the Levites to do double the sacrifices on the Sabbath. If God told them to do it, it's not profaning the Sabbath.

Numbers 28:9-10
"'On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil.
10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering."


So then the question is why did God tell them to do more on the Sabbath? What purpose did it serve? Follow-up question: How does this relate to Jesus healing on the Sabbath?