Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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You studied for 22 MONTHS? And THIS is what you came up with? You are a babe in theology.

God adopts his kids
God does not UN-adopt His kids

The gift and the calling are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

The parable about the good news that falls on the rocky soil, or along the wayside, etc as those who seem to be in the "family" are actually just visitors. They come for awhile and then they go. As scripture says, if they were of us they would not have left us. It is the seed that GOD plants that will take root.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Im reading through the story of Saul and this is gonna be hard to explain from the calvinist point of view. Can some of you guys try?

In 1 Samuel 10 Saul's heart is changed by God, the spirit of the LORD will be upon him etc.
God makes him king, he shall be turned into "another man" sounds like born again. Then later on it says God regrets making Saul king, why would God go through all that if he was never saved to begin with? I dont know guys.

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1Samuel 13:13 "You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

I should create a separate topic for this tbh.

God regrets making Saul king, after choosing him specifically for that job, giving him the Spirit, changing his heart, all that. Yet we are told God's gifts and callings are irrevocable?

Or are they only irrevocable UNLESS you do like Saul and disobey the Lord?
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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I am not certain, but I have never assumed just because Saul failed as a person he is not saved. After all he did do well at first. All ordinary men will fail eentually…….. I do not know, I think Saul will be in the Kingdom, but I do not know with the certainty to say for sure.
 

Hevosmies

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I am not certain, but I have never assumed just because Saul failed as a person he is not saved. After all he did do well at first. All ordinary men will fail eentually…….. I do not know, I think Saul will be in the Kingdom, but I do not know with the certainty to say for sure.
He lost the Holy Spirit and still got in the kingdom? Oy vey.
 

Jachob

Junior Member
Nov 2, 2015
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There are different positions on the other side of eternal security. Let us outline these so that we can confront these positions accordingly.

Because of Sin
1. You are saved by Grace alone through Faith alone, but if you go back into sin you will lose your salvation. Too much sin causes you to lose your justification.

Because of the Will
2. You are saved by Grace alone through Faith alone, and sin will not cause a loss of salvation, but you can choose to give up your salvation and turn from God.

#1
I find it difficult not to connect #1 with works based salvation. We did not get saved by keeping the law, and we do not sustain our salvation by works. This position is the most dangerous. It puts forward that you must work to keep yourself saved, and this is contrary to all of scripture.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

This verse above puts forward that we are not going to finish this race by obedience to the law but through walking in the spirit. Not sinning is the result of being saved, it is not what keeps you saved.

#2
#2 is due to a misunderstanding of the new birth. When you are saved you receive a new nature. You get a new heart, and you become a new person. Let us look at what Paul says about this birth and coming into salvation.

Galatians 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

For those of you who teach we can lose our salvation, I feel for you. I feel for you that you do not know the joy of living in security. My faith is not in myself and my ability to stay with God. My faith is in God, that he himself will keep me.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 John 5:18

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 Corinthians 1:8
who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God sustains his children. Once you are born again you are a new creation, and nothing can come between me and the love of God.
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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He lost the Holy Spirit and still got in the kingdom? Oy vey.
I do not recall rreading Saul "lost the Holy Spirit." He was anointed, but this does not mean aything other than he was anointed with oil as King. Also I am saying I do not know if he is or is not in the Kingdom according to writings.
 

Hevosmies

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I do not recall rreading Saul "lost the Holy Spirit." He was anointed, but this does not mean aything other than he was anointed with oil as King. Also I am saying I do not know if he is or is not in the Kingdom according to writings.
1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
 

JaumeJ

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Thank you for the quote.……...but was that the same as being baptized by the Holy Spirit. It seems it well could be, but let me know.
 

Hevosmies

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Thank you for the quote.……...but was that the same as being baptized by the Holy Spirit. It seems it well could be, but let me know.
Honestly, i dont know.

Some say it was always the same way, some say its a different permanent indwelling in the New Covenant.

I personally believe its a different kind of indwelling in the NT. Because of the fact that we see many times the Spirit of the LORD "come upon" people in the OT. That suggests to me they werent indwelled constantly.
That also explains why they didn't go to heaven but to Abraham's bosom, until Jesus came and took them up to heaven with him after His work was done on the cross. Also when prophecying about the New Covenant in teh OT it speaks about God's spirit living inside people and God causing them to obey His commandments. Suggesting that wasnt done in the previous covenant, if it was, whats the point of saying it will happen in the future, if its ALREADY happening?

BUT Thats just what I believe, not dogmatic on it.
 

Locoponydirtman

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This is all good but what about Saul? The Spirit was taken from him?
God chose Saul as a form of punishment for Isreal. God knew full well what Saul would do, and God warned isreal that they didn't need or really want a king, but he gave them what they demanded. Saul never was a man of God.
 

Hevosmies

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God chose Saul as a form of punishment for Isreal. God knew full well what Saul would do, and God warned isreal that they didn't need or really want a king, but he gave them what they demanded. Saul never was a man of God.
Not buying that.

The bible says God repented that He made him king first of all, second it says God changed Saul's heart, third it says the spirit of the LORD will be upon him (saul) and that he shall be changed into another man.

That to me sounds like a man of God.
He was a man of God is also proven by this:


1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

He had the Spirit, but then didnt anymore. Why? Because:

1Samuel 13:13 "You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Im waiting for someone to explain this to me, but so far, its a hard sell. The Scriptures there are crystal clear.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Not buying that.

The bible says God repented that He made him king first of all, second it says God changed Saul's heart, third it says the spirit of the LORD will be upon him (saul) and that he shall be changed into another man.

That to me sounds like a man of God.
He was a man of God is also proven by this:


1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

He had the Spirit, but then didnt anymore. Why? Because:

1Samuel 13:13 "You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Im waiting for someone to explain this to me, but so far, its a hard sell. The Scriptures there are crystal clear.
So God was just winging it? He don't really know what's going on?
 

Hevosmies

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So God was just winging it? He don't really know what's going on?
Hey. I didnt write the story there.

It says God did all those things, and then after Saul disobeyed God regretted of His decision.

It says elsewhere that God does not repent though, and that He does foresee the future. Yet often times God gives people in time things like increased lifespan.

Its an interesting debate, this is why both calvinism and open theism exist. Both got verses to prove their point, as usual with all contested doctrines in Christianity.
I think the winner of the debate is the side who can reconcile the texts and explain them to make it "fit".
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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I'm glad I am no judge of anyone.
So you are telling me that God will seal a person and Grant them the Holy spirit only to then have to remove his spirit from them?...because He didn't know what they were going to do?
God all knowing, all powerful, ever present.
We don't know....G-d may wish to......... not to know.
Study Job...and ask why Job...after G-d saying Job was a perfect servant.
Wy does G-d want us to comply with His commandments ...after being ...."born again".?
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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Honestly, i dont know.

Some say it was always the same way, some say its a different permanent indwelling in the New Covenant.

I personally believe its a different kind of indwelling in the NT. Because of the fact that we see many times the Spirit of the LORD "come upon" people in the OT. That suggests to me they werent indwelled constantly.
That also explains why they didn't go to heaven but to Abraham's bosom, until Jesus came and took them up to heaven with him after His work was done on the cross. Also when prophecying about the New Covenant in teh OT it speaks about God's spirit living inside people and God causing them to obey His commandments. Suggesting that wasnt done in the previous covenant, if it was, whats the point of saying it will happen in the future, if its ALREADY happening?

BUT Thats just what I believe, not dogmatic on it.

This is reasonable, and I will keep it to me.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Im reading through the story of Saul and this is gonna be hard to explain from the calvinist point of view. Can some of you guys try?

In 1 Samuel 10 Saul's heart is changed by God, the spirit of the LORD will be upon him etc.
God makes him king, he shall be turned into "another man" sounds like born again. Then later on it says God regrets making Saul king, why would God go through all that if he was never saved to begin with? I dont know guys.

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1Samuel 13:13 "You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

I should create a separate topic for this tbh.

God regrets making Saul king, after choosing him specifically for that job, giving him the Spirit, changing his heart, all that. Yet we are told God's gifts and callings are irrevocable?

Or are they only irrevocable UNLESS you do like Saul and disobey the Lord?
To cast a few pearls, this is what I have to offer:

1. mixing scripture form the old covenant with the new covenant make a dizzying mess of a dogma
2. God can turn the heart of the king where ever He will
3. God's regret is not like people's regrets
4. Obviously there is a misunderstanding of free will and the will that is free WITHIN man's own nature. Non-Cals often know nothing of Calvinist doctrine except what they read or hear in error from others who know nothing.

There are four things God regrets having created: Exile, the Chaldeans , the Ishmaelites , and the Evil Inclination

Given that God is by definition omniscient and omni potent, it borders on the absurd to suggest that God “regrets” anything – as the prophet states, “God is not a man that He should regret!” (ISamuel 15:29).
For if He is all knowing, certainly He foresaw the negativeoutcome of these things; and if He is all-powerful, certainly He has the power to change things to His liking. The fact that God allowed something to be created and,furthermore, doesn’t change the object of His displeasure, forces us to
modify our understanding of “regret” as applied to the divine. the object of regret under consideration must be of a dual
nature – both potentially negative yet indispensably positive. Thus, bysaying that God “regrets” something, we are saying that He acknowledges its latent negative ramifications on the one hand yet is “bound” – as itwere – by its imperative necessity on the other.

Also John Piper wrote extensively on this subject if you REALLY want to know.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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To be ANNOINTED means to be set apart for service to God.
 
Jan 3, 2019
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Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.
Greetings! I would say I am of the understanding of the perseverance of the saints...but I would say what perseverance means is sometimes confusing. Persevering can't mean works but trust. I think if you deny Christ and walk away you have proven yourself an unbeliever that fits the bad soil and if you never come back you have proven to be an unbeliever not a backslider. My problem with good works following regeneration is how that can be measured? If I am questioning or working out my salvation and feel I am found wanting on good works when will they be enough? If I get discouraged and think I am probably not that good soil christian and start working how do I know I am not working for acceptance by God? If I think I couldn't possibly be saved because of my weak faith what do I do repent and ask for forgiveness and salvation again? If I start to do better than fall into old patterns again do I doubt my salvation again? See I think works can be a scary measure of our position in Christ. I don't know the answer but if our faith is proved through our works I am not sure how we will ever be able to tell the difference between faith plus works or faith leading to works.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
See. This is the kind of thing that should be troublesome to the anti-dispensationalists. Especially my brothers who deeply espouse Calvinism.

This kind of thing can't happen to us, because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
 

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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See. This is the kind of thing that should be troublesome to the anti-dispensationalists. Especially my brothers who deeply espouse Calvinism.

This kind of thing can't happen to us, because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
What??? Explain your assertions and accusation of those "who deeply espouse Calvinism."