Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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See. This is the kind of thing that should be troublesome to the anti-dispensationalists. Especially my brothers who deeply espouse Calvinism.

This kind of thing can't happen to us, because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
“Who deeply espouse Calvinism”. As preacher asked, would you please elaborate on what you meant my friend?
 
Jan 3, 2019
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Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.
Yes, this is totally false, I agree.

But I have never heard anybody to teach this. What I always heard and what is biblical and logical, is this:

If you are truly saved by a true faith, if you are born again from the Spirit, God will preserve you to the end. I.E. you will be repentant, you will be faithful to the end, by the grace of God.
Greetings! I would say I am of the understanding of the perseverance of the saints...but I would say what perseverance means is sometimes confusing. Persevering can't mean works but trust. I think if you deny Christ and walk away you have proven yourself an unbeliever that fits the bad soil and if you never come back you have proven to be an unbeliever not a backslider. My problem with good works following regeneration is how that can be measured? If I am questioning or working out my salvation and feel I am found wanting on good works when will they be enough? If I get discouraged and think I am probably not that good soil christian and start working how do I know I am not working for acceptance by God? If I think I couldn't possibly be saved because of my weak faith what do I do repent and ask for forgiveness and salvation again? If I start to do better than fall into old patterns again do I doubt my salvation again? See I think works can be a scary measure of our position in Christ. I don't know the answer but if our faith is proved through our works I am not sure how we will ever be able to tell the difference between faith plus works or faith leading to works.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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What??? Explain your assertions and accusation of those "who deeply espouse Calvinism."
Settle down young man. We good.


As you know, I'm onboard with a lot of the tenets of Calvinism. But just as you note, there are some very hardcore people that claim to be Calvinists, that believe or at least lean toward, some whacky ideas. Like our friend FGC.

But I would include some of the other beliefs I've come across. There are those that don't believe we should love and preach the Gospel to all. They only seek out those THEY THINK are the elect.

Then there are those with less, and perhaps correct, views I'm not onboard with, yet am content to just joust around with, that aren't so far out there, yet I still believe are wrong.

Like babies and children in Hell.

Like Israel and the Church being distinct, with different destinies.

Like a literal reading of Scripture unless the text, context, dictate otherwise.

Like dispensations and end times. Vis a vis my post about the Holy Spirit leaving Saul. That can't happen to the born again believer today.

Probably a couple of other things.

But the letters of TULIP I am mostly in line with.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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If anyone has anything to say the opposes another's view on the Word, or rather a denominaiton caliming to represent theWord perfectly, I think he or she should tell all to which denomination our Lord, Jesus Christ would belong?
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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Settle down young man. We good.


As you know, I'm onboard with a lot of the tenets of Calvinism. But just as you note, there are some very hardcore people that claim to be Calvinists, that believe or at least lean toward, some whacky ideas. Like our friend FGC.

But I would include some of the other beliefs I've come across. There are those that don't believe we should love and preach the Gospel to all. They only seek out those THEY THINK are the elect.

Then there are those with less, and perhaps correct, views I'm not onboard with, yet am content to just joust around with, that aren't so far out there, yet I still believe are wrong.

Like babies and children in Hell.

Like Israel and the Church being distinct, with different destinies.

Like a literal reading of Scripture unless the text, context, dictate otherwise.

Like dispensations and end times. Vis a vis my post about the Holy Spirit leaving Saul. That can't happen to the born again believer today.

Probably a couple of other things.

But the letters of TULIP I am mostly in line with.
I'm settled bro! Your post made no sense which is why I asked. Would you please stop assuming people are angry or upset because of fonts on a forum and leave it out of the equation? It just makes others jump in and continue down that rabbit trail. ;)

That said, your above doesn't clarify your previous post in the least, so it still makes no sense and I don't get how or why you took a jab at "those who deeply espouse Calvinism" with it.

Israel and the church are in one fold, John 10:16. There are not two folds. Those added the church in Acts 2 were Israelites, we are in the same fold as they are.

As for FGC his gospel is completely false -- it does not save eternally, and he says it doesn't save eternally. This is contrary to Scripture, note 1 Peter 1:20-25; 1 Corinthians 1:21 &c. Yes, he preaches to people he thinks are elect, and to him the elect are any person who believes in absolutely ANYTHING spiritual by misusing 1 Corinthians 2:14.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I'm settled bro! Your post made no sense which is why I asked. Would you please stop assuming people are angry or upset because of fonts on a forum and leave it out of the equation? It just makes others jump in and continue down that rabbit trail. ;)

That said, your above doesn't clarify your previous post in the least, so it still makes no sense and I don't get how or why you took a jab at "those who deeply espouse Calvinism" with it.

Israel and the church are in one fold, John 10:16. There are not two folds. Those added the church in Acts 2 were Israelites, we are in the same fold as they are.

As for FGC his gospel is completely false -- it does not save eternally, and he says it doesn't save eternally. This is contrary to Scripture, note 1 Peter 1:20-25; 1 Corinthians 1:21 &c. Yes, he preaches to people he thinks are elect, and to him the elect are any person who believes in absolutely ANYTHING spiritual by misusing 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Sometimes I act on here to people like they know me in real life. My bad. You seemed a little animated or excited by what I said. That's all. Unless I'm mistaken with the trip ??? marks and and an accusation of an accusation.

"Settle down young man" is not meant in the slightest as a derogatory. It's what I say in real life to people I'm in passionate discussions with. Could be football!

I didn't mean FGC alone. My son deals with these guys all the time at College. They don't want anything to do with anyone except if they think your'e an elect.

Am I wrong in saying most Calvinists disagree with dispensationalism? BTW, like Calvinism, I don't think I completely agree with all dispy stuff.

Getting specific, I'm pretty sure you believe the Holy Spirit won't ever leave a born again Child of God. So why did He leave not only Saul, but Samson as well? Although I think He returned in Samson's case.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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Sometimes I act on here to people like they know me in real life. My bad. You seemed a little animated or excited by what I said. That's all. Unless I'm mistaken with the trip ??? marks and and an accusation of an accusation.

"Settle down young man" is not meant in the slightest as a derogatory. It's what I say in real life to people I'm in passionate discussions with. Could be football!

I didn't mean FGC alone. My son deals with these guys all the time at College. They don't want anything to do with anyone except if they think your'e an elect.

Am I wrong in saying most Calvinists disagree with dispensationalism? BTW, like Calvinism, I don't think I completely agree with all dispy stuff.

Getting specific, I'm pretty sure you believe the Holy Spirit won't ever leave a born again Child of God. So why did He leave not only Saul, but Samson as well? Although I think He returned in Samson's case.
Well I don't see an accusation as necessarily negative, but on forums it's almost automatic to think that. Brother, your statement was accusing of something, but I'm still not sure what it is! Thus my "What???"

I'm not sure about King Saul but am fairly certain it had nothing to do with salvation. We would have to examine all instances in Scripture where such an event took place.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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See. This is the kind of thing that should be troublesome to the anti-dispensationalists. Especially my brothers who deeply espouse Calvinism.

This kind of thing can't happen to us, because we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
Well how do you answer it then?

Whats the solution? I still havent found a proper answer to that. Probably never will.

The whole idea of the Lord repenting is just weird, especially when in the same chapter it says the Lord does NOT repent. Yet He repents just a couple of verses prior
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Sometimes I act on here to people like they know me in real life. My bad. You seemed a little animated or excited by what I said. That's all. Unless I'm mistaken with the trip ??? marks and and an accusation of an accusation.

"Settle down young man" is not meant in the slightest as a derogatory. It's what I say in real life to people I'm in passionate discussions with. Could be football!

I didn't mean FGC alone. My son deals with these guys all the time at College. They don't want anything to do with anyone except if they think your'e an elect.

Am I wrong in saying most Calvinists disagree with dispensationalism? BTW, like Calvinism, I don't think I completely agree with all dispy stuff.

Getting specific, I'm pretty sure you believe the Holy Spirit won't ever leave a born again Child of God. So why did He leave not only Saul, but Samson as well? Although I think He returned in Samson's case.
Hi Pen...Could it be because the Holy Spirit was ON them and not IN them , just a thought...xox...
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

In days of old from even before Moses we have a witness of the faith of Messiah in Abraham.
What was this faith? That Abram believed Elohim, (God) and it was credited to him as righteousness. What is Faith from a scriptural perspective? It is the keeping and observing of the Law of Elohim. Not in order to be saved or get salvation however. If we obey the Father's instructions we do it because we have been saved. It is not the law which is how we know we are sinners. It is by the Spirit of the law that we continue to walk in obedience to Messiah.
People it isn't that hard to understand. Not unlike wisdom.
How does one get wisdom? They ask Elohim who gives wisdom freely. What is the beginning of wisdom? The fear of Elohim. And to resist evil is understanding.
What evilness is by the way is easily to describe as being away from God. In other words sinning.
What is sin? Violation of the Law of Elohim.
I hope this makes sense to someone. Shalom John Talmid
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Hi Pen...Could it be because the Holy Spirit was ON them and not IN them , just a thought...xox...
Hey Rosemary! Happy New Year Dear.

Obviously I don't definitively know. But David prayed a prayer we as saved Children can't. So he thought the Holy Spirit could leave him.

Psalm 51:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Hey Rosemary! Happy New Year Dear.

Obviously I don't definitively know. But David prayed a prayer we as saved Children can't. So he thought the Holy Spirit could leave him.

Psalm 51:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Happy new year to you brother...I believe they were saved by faith , , without faith we can`t please God...Hebrews 11:6...xox...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

In days of old from even before Moses we have a witness of the faith of Messiah in Abraham.
What was this faith? That Abram believed Elohim, (God) and it was credited to him as righteousness. What is Faith from a scriptural perspective? It is the keeping and observing of the Law of Elohim. Not in order to be saved or get salvation however. If we obey the Father's instructions we do it because we have been saved. It is not the law which is how we know we are sinners. It is by the Spirit of the law that we continue to walk in obedience to Messiah.
People it isn't that hard to understand. Not unlike wisdom.
How does one get wisdom? They ask Elohim who gives wisdom freely. What is the beginning of wisdom? The fear of Elohim. And to resist evil is understanding.
What evilness is by the way is easily to describe as being away from God. In other words sinning.
What is sin? Violation of the Law of Elohim.
I hope this makes sense to someone. Shalom John Talmid
You quote the bible verses and even explain Abraham and then completely reverse the true meaning of the scripture.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as Righteousness. That is faith. Believing in God is faith.

Keeping of the law has nothing to do with faith. The Law is not of faith and it is not instructions. If it were instructions then you would understand them and by understanding them you would know you couldn't fulfill them.

Which would bring you back to real faith. Believing in God and having your whole hope rest in Him and not yourself.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Working at the law is not of faith.

Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Great reply Rosemary!

Question....

Do we really believe that we have been circumcised of "flesh"? Was there not a sudden change in our nature at our new birth?

I don't believe the 4 types of soil are picturing 4 different people but the 4 stages of the work of Holy Spirit drawing us to Himself.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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The Bible is clear about osas-

1. Once we accept Christ, God will never let go of us for anything we do.
2. None the less, many will turn away from their faith.
3. For those who turn, there is no sacrifice that will save them.
4. Those who abandon their faith will revert back to their old unsaved state, and be as if they were never saved to begin with.

I proposed a solution once that encompasses all these seemingly conflicting scriptures. But narrow minded people didn't care to hear it.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Great reply Rosemary!

Question....

Do we really believe that we have been circumcised of "flesh"? Was there not a sudden change in our nature at our new birth?

I don't believe the 4 types of soil are picturing 4 different people but the 4 stages of the work of Holy Spirit drawing us to Himself.
Hi Stones...Happy new year to you...
Someone once described the life of being born again was a complete turn around , but the flesh was hanging off their back , rotten away daily , I get that...
When I see the parables of the soils , I do see people that way...I spoke to my daughters partner last week as he is not saved , he had ears to hear , and was interested in what I was saying from Scripture , when he went on his way , I prayed to God that the evil one would not come and take it away , you know like how Jesus described the birds of the air , yes I see the soils as different deepness in people , but then we plant , someone else waters , but God does the growing...xox...
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
8,081
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Hi Stones...Happy new year to you...
Someone once described the life of being born again was a complete turn around , but the flesh was hanging off their back , rotten away daily , I get that...
When I see the parables of the soils , I do see people that way...I spoke to my daughters partner last week as he is not saved , he had ears to hear , and was interested in what I was saying from Scripture , when he went on his way , I prayed to God that the evil one would not come and take it away , you know like how Jesus described the birds of the air , yes I see the soils as different deepness in people , but then we plant , someone else waters , but God does the growing...xox...
My gosh girl how you have grown!

Happy New Year to you also!

The only point I don't quite agree with is the pic of the flesh rotting and hanging on. Scripture states it's the mind that needs renewed to the Word of the Lord. So daily we put our faith in this fact....we are new creations of God, and we walk in His Spirit, filled with Holy Spirit. Finished!

We don't have to die daily but reckon it truth.