Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[PeterJens]

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
2 Peter 2:1-3

 

[Grace777x70]

Telling people to rely on God's grace and that the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God is what "teaches" us how to live godly in this world. Does that sound like people with depraved conduct?

Denying Christ is living from our own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness and not by faith based on the grace and life of God in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Sometimes we need to give our religiously taught heads a shake and come out of the fog and repent and believe the gospel - just like Jesus said to do in Mark 1:15.

The sky is blue.

 

[PeterJens]

These teachers who believe in the DIY failure from the world dressed up as
christian victory of Christ, like a white washed tomb with nothing living inside,
only old bones covered over by a hard heart.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

These Scriptures say that Paul's teaching supercedes the direct words of Jesus in the Gospels??!!!

Colossians 1:25,26:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Ephesians 3:3-7

[SUP]3 [/SUP]How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.



Yes, indeed Paul had a special job description: to reveal the mystery that had been hidden to the Gentiles.

Where do these texts say that Paul's writings are superior to the words of Jesus in the Gospels? You have to read it into the text if you want them to say that, because they don't say it!

I looked at the other verse you gave, and they are similar in theme, but none of them says that Paul's writings are superior to the words of Jesus in the Gospels.

You are putting words in my mouth that I never said. But that's fine. Do whatever you want lol. Every word in the bible is Jesus's words.

 

[followjesus]

Let me wonder allowed. Let me assume each of these phrases comes from a sermon
or book spoken or written by JP, are they sound theology or error?

And if they are error, false teaching, then the source must be a false teacher.

There is no malice or hatred in such a logic, but walking in the light.

the more light that shines reveals the fallacy of the things false teachers teach. And Just Like His disciples, jp is never actually saying what hes saying, but we live in a world where understanding the truth is the truth and all else is fallacy, makes a person judgemental and crazy. If you want some uotes that absolutely are 100 percent false from a jp book I can provide probably 20. Things Like " you will never find an example of God punishing a believer for thier sin in the new testament" 2 were stricken dead because they Lied about How much money they received from the sale of thier land. in the very first few chapters of acts the beginning of the church. if you havent read some of His teachings lol i suggest DONT DO IT. I have over the past 6 months done very extensive study on this guy ( just to be clear, he didnt invent this false doctrine, He simply twists it further and in Hos own ways to suit His book sales)

There is no malice in the truth. But if a person is deceived, truth is the enemy. Grace is awesome when it comes through the Word of Jesus Christ, a good example of grace is the fact that God sent the truth to set us free from the deception.

 

[Grace777x70]

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

 

[followjesus]

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
2 Peter 2:1-3

amen......

False prophets

Jeremiah 5:31 "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and MY PEOPLE LOVE TO HAVE IT SO: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"

People Love to hear what God didnt say, because what He did say requires all of our hearts and lives be dedicated to Him. It is God calling sinners ( all of us at some point) to repentance, and people dont want to change what they enjoy, even if they understand it is sin. God is enough, but for instance a man cheating on His wife, is called to stop cheating on His wife so that He may be forgiven, the guy who says " Im forgiven for cheating on my wife, while hes going to meet another woman at the hotel"......Grace is available to Him, But repentance is His part of the euqation. Grace is much clearer looking at peter to me.

acts 3:18-19 "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; "

simplicity in the words of peter. Just like 1 peter 2:24, Hes saying the same thing paul takes 3 or four chapters to explain. Christ bore our sins in Hos body so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness, by His wounds we are healed" paul teaches the same thing, with countless more words. and both are teaching what Jesus taught. false teachers are the devils only weapon against the church. Gods Word saves those who accept it as God Gave it through Jesus, so then the enemies way is to distort truth. And Like God operates through People on earth, so does the enemy.

 

[followjesus]

2 Timothy 1:12, For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2 timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY."

 

[Grace777x70]

Walking in bitterness, malice and slander towards others in the body of Christ is not an example of departing from iniquity.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

 

[Grace777x70]

All of the works of the flesh are destructive to us no matter what they are. Let's chose to rely on what Christ has already done for us and to walk in all that He has accomplished for us.

His life can only be truly manifested in and through us as we rely on Him alone and this only comes by grace through faith alone. The fruit of His life will manifest in good works as we are taught the grace and love of God for us in Christ.

The gospel is the power of God for salvation. Romans 1:16-17. The righteous shall live by faith. Faith in what Christ has already done for us releases His life in us to reflect what is in us in the new creation in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Catholics do not believe that you are saved by works.

This is not true. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and I know first hand what they teach. Where Roman Catholics error is they seem to believe that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES the sacraments, which is to say that faith is in essence, these works, which equates to salvation through faith AND WORKS. I've heard Roman Catholics admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in the hope of receiving salvation. In its official writings, the Roman Catholic church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to receive eternal life. Please read the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven based on the merit of Christ's finished work of redemption alone. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic "version" of salvation by works.

They believe that you are saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8

Faith "infused" with works. By the time that Roman Catholics get through "infusing" works into faith, it is no longer saved through faith NOT works, but saved through faith AND works/the sacraments.

 

[MattTooFor]

You're missing Paul's audience. Paul's audience was not a group of people who assemble in a church building. Paul's audience was the body of Christ who happened to live at Corinth. If you were not in Christ, this letter was not for you.

Right. So when the letter was read to a group who had gathered at their place of assembly there in Corinth...which ones were genuine believers and which ones were not saved even though they may have "deceived" themselves into thinking they were saved?

Is there such a thing as...a person who is deceived about their salvation...like Paul states in 1 Corinthians 6?

 

[MattTooFor]

The gospel has been so watered down by works-based salvationists

This is actually getting a bit amusing. Name-calling won't win you any arguments. And...don't know if you realize this but...there is no such thing as a conservative Christian who believes in salvation by works. There ARE a few folks out there who will imperiously peg other believers as "works-based salvationists" for supporting the Book of James.

Yes, I believe "faith without works is dead". If someone says they have faith but no works, they have a dead faith. We need to prove our faith through our deeds. You think that sounds horrible? James 1:22 --

"But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."

We are told to "prove" our faith through deeds. That crazy James guy. What a "works-based salvationist" nut-job he was, huh?

Simple question: Do you believe God's Word when it says some people are "deceived" about their salvation and their expectation of "inheriting the kingdom"? Don't need a foot-long response...just a yes or no.

 

[mailmandan]

Brother, it is also written.

James 2 14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Yes show, not establish. James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c]

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent belief," as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works in Genesis 22.

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Please pay close attention - The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Rahab believed in the Lord with a living faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her living faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers show theirs.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in the faith is the source of the works. Does a dead faith produce works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith? Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree? We are made alive in Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) and created in Christ Jesus first (source of life in our faith) then UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:10). Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is actually getting a bit amusing. Name-calling won't win you any arguments. And...don't know if you realize this but...there is no such thing as a conservative Christian who believes in salvation by works. There ARE a few folks out there who will imperiously peg other believers as "works-based salvationists" for supporting the Book of James.

Yes, I believe "faith without works is dead". If someone says they have faith but no works, they have a dead faith. We need to prove our faith through our deeds. You think that sounds horrible? James 1:22 --

"But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."

We are told to "prove" our faith through deeds. That crazy James guy. What a "works-based salvationist" nut-job he was, huh?

Simple question: Do you believe God's Word when it says some people are "deceived" about their salvation and their expectation of "inheriting the kingdom"? Don't need a foot-long response...just a yes or no.

Here is my response - if it doesn't pass your requirements then maybe it'll help someone else out.....All is well....

Of course people can be deceived. We see it in the works-based salvationists mindset which is religion. Religion is anything that replaces the grace and life of God which has been fulfilled by Christ and trying to accomplish it by our own self-efforts what Christ has already done in His finished work.

Being a doer the word is living by faith in the grace of God shown in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

I have always said it and will continue saying it - living by faith in the grace of God will manifest the life of Christ to reflect what is in us in our new creation in Christ.

Good works born from the Spirit of God within us will be a fruit of His life in us. He is the Vine - the root - but works/fruit does not create the "root". This is where works-based salvationists get the gospel backwards but God is changing all that for all of us as He is revealing His Son's perfect work for us.

I always get excited and full of joy when I get to talk about what the Lord has done for us in His great love and grace towards us.

 

[John146]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Yes show, not establish. James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

How many works does a believer need to show to justify his status as a believer? A lifetime of works? And who is the believer justifying himself to? God or other men? Is there anyway that the good works of a believer can be differentiated from the good works of non-believers?

I would argue that Paul says the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. The works of Jesus Christ justifies the believer. James has never been successfully reconciled with Paul. They are talking to two different audiences in separate dispensations. Until that is understood, people will have to explain away the texts to make them mesh.

 

[FranC]

This is not true. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and I know first hand what they teach. Where Roman Catholics error is they seem to believe that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES the sacraments, which is to say that faith is in essence, these works, which equates to salvation through faith AND WORKS. I've heard Roman Catholics admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in the hope of receiving salvation. In its official writings, the Roman Catholic church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to receive eternal life. Please read the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven based on the merit of Christ's finished work of redemption alone. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic "version" of salvation by works.

Faith "infused" with works. By the time that Roman Catholics get through "infusing" works into faith, it is no longer saved through faith NOT works, but saved through faith AND works/the sacraments.

Hi Mailmandan,
I never saw this before. I'm having a really difficult time at this site because I'm not advised when someone responds to ME.
What am I doing wrong???

Anyway, This is the problem:
CATHOLICS don't know their "religion." I know this for sure because I know Catholic doctrine and have taught it to both children at catechism and also have had adult lessons - with parish approval, of course.

First of all, you shouldn't be reading canons... What you have to check to see what the Catholic Church teaches (the magesterium) is to check out the CCC, Catechism of the Catholic Church. Forget about the Council of Trent. That was hundreds of years ago. (1550 approx). MUCH has CHANGED in the RCC since then!!

I am no longer Catholic, however I don't like incorrect things to be said about them, just as I don't like incorrect things to be said about Protestants when I'm speaking to a Catholic. There are plenty of mistakes on both sides of the isle.

Just quick:
1. The RCC teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Eph 2:8, just like us.
Sacraments are a source of Grace.
Works come after salvation and are a sign of salvation and are necessary. As a Protestant, I also believe that Jesus said that works are necessary, but this is a different topic.

All those "works" you mentioned up above are good to do. But if someone in that Church believes that THIS is what's saving them, then, as I said before, they DO NOT KNOW their faith. Most Catholics go to Mass on Sunday and never study the bible.

2. Catholics mix up Justification and Sanctification in a way that made it difficult to explain eve when I had to and which I do not care for. However, it's important here to state this:

Catholics baptize infants. HOWEVER, those INTERESTED (which are not too many,unfortunately) are advised that AT SOME POINT in their ADULT life, the Justification received at baptism MUST BE ACCEPTED as an adult.

Regarding your last paragraph:
We're going to have a disagreement on this because I also believe that works are necessary in a Christian's life. I'm sorry that the word has become a bad word in Christianity.

We are God's hands and feet. We ARE to do His WORK here on earth. We ARE to contribute to the Kingdom of God which begins right here.

If you have any doubt as to what I've stated above, you could check it out in the CCC or ask any priest who is willing to have an intelligent talk with you.

Fran

 

[FranC]

How many works does a believer need to show to justify his status as a believer? A lifetime of works? And who is the believer justifying himself to? God or other men? Is there anyway that the good works of a believer can be differentiated from the good works of non-believers?

I would argue that Paul says the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. The works of Jesus Christ justifies the believer. James has never been successfully reconciled with Paul. They are talking to two different audiences in separate dispensations. Until that is understood, people will have to explain away the texts to make them mesh.

I'm so sorry I don't have more time for this...

What are you and Mailmandan talking about anyway?
You're arguing over "WORKS".

Two dispensations?
What do you mean, there's one set of rules for one dispensation and another set for a different dispensation?

Has God changed His mind?
Is His word not forever?
He has different rules for different people?

What goes on here?

Fran

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Mailmandan,
I never saw this before. I'm having a really difficult time at this site because I'm not advised when someone responds to ME.
What am I doing wrong???

Not sure.

Anyway, This is the problem:
CATHOLICS don't know their "religion." I know this for sure because I know Catholic doctrine and have taught it to both children at catechism and also have had adult lessons - with parish approval, of course.

I've had several debates with Roman Catholics and they all have pointed to faith AND good works as being the basis of receiving salvation.

First of all, you shouldn't be reading canons... What you have to check to see what the Catholic Church teaches (the magesterium) is to check out the CCC, Catechism of the Catholic Church. Forget about the Council of Trent. That was hundreds of years ago. (1550 approx). MUCH has CHANGED in the RCC since then!!

According the Roman Catholics that I talk with, nothing has changed from the beginning.

I am no longer Catholic, however I don't like incorrect things to be said about them, just as I don't like incorrect things to be said about Protestants when I'm speaking to a Catholic. There are plenty of mistakes on both sides of the isle.

Agreed.

Just quick:
1. The RCC teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Eph 2:8, just like us.
Sacraments are a source of Grace.
Works come after salvation and are a sign of salvation and are necessary.

Necessary as the proof of salvation or the means of salvation?

As a Protestant, I also believe that Jesus said that works are necessary, but this is a different topic.

Works are necessary to show our faith (James 2:14-18) but we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

All those "works" you mentioned up above are good to do. But if someone in that Church believes that THIS is what's saving them, then, as I said before, they DO NOT KNOW their faith. Most Catholics go to Mass on Sunday and never study the bible.

Many Catholics seem to believe that works are what is saving them and don't study the Bible. Been there, done that.

2. Catholics mix up Justification and Sanctification in a way that made it difficult to explain eve when I had to and which I do not care for. However, it's important here to state this:

They certainly do. They confuse justification with ongoing sanctification and believe that justification is a process. I've heard Catholics state this many times.

Catholics baptize infants. HOWEVER, those INTERESTED (which are not too many,unfortunately) are advised that AT SOME POINT in their ADULT life, the Justification received at baptism MUST BE ACCEPTED as an adult.

Catholics believe that we are saved by baptism.

Regarding your last paragraph:
We're going to have a disagreement on this because I also believe that works are necessary in a Christian's life. I'm sorry that the word has become a bad word in Christianity.

Works are necessary to show that our faith is genuine. I have said many times. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We are God's hands and feet. We ARE to do His WORK here on earth. We ARE to contribute to the Kingdom of God which begins right here.

We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

If you have any doubt as to what I've stated above, you could check it out in the CCC or ask any priest who is willing to have an intelligent talk with you.

I've had many discussions with Joe Mizzi (a former Roman Catholic) on this website - Just for Catholics: Answers

 

[PeterJens]

How well do we know Christ?

You know His death and resurrection yet the life you live denies this, humble yourself and
Seek His face through His word, prayer and praise.

Some say liars say obey Christ, yet this is were the cross leads us.