Eternal security??

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M

Musilany

Guest
#1
I have always had a hard time in understanding the whole eternal security thing..
I totaly believe that we are saved by grace, and not by works, if it was by works we would be doomed. But i also believe that if you truly accept jesus into you heart you can't be the same person, you are different in you actions and everything, people will see a change happening in our life. I know we don HAVE to do anything but somedody that trully have Jesus on their hears can't leave just like the world. (2 chorinthians 5:17)Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am not saying that we can be perfect, cause we can't. we will always struggle in this life and there will be times when we wont feel God so close, but that is not an excuse to do whatever we want...
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,307
33
48
#2
So you are saying that fruit will follow salvation? Very true.. but also just because someone doesn't look christian.. or aren't following God.. does not mean they hadn't been saved by Jesus. Even the fruit from salvation can be hard to discern if someone is saved who is a very quiet person who doesn't say much.. or something like that.

So the natural result of the Holy Spirit being inside someone.. having sealed them and forgiven their sin.. will be fruit. But this doesn't mean a pattern of life-long good works. A pattern of life-long good works comes about by gaining maturity in your walk and relying on the Holy Spirit, relying on Jesus.

So eternal security doesn't mean someone just says a prayer without conviction and then they are saved and secure.. they would say a prayer to accept Jesus into their life.. but it would be from the heart! Since it is from the heart.. then the natural outcome would be some signs that they have been saved.

But once saved.. they have been secured in Christ. It isn't their faith that keeps them saved.. but Jesus' commitment to them. Like your own parents.. if they are doing their job right.. when you stuff up and are unfaithful to them.. they remain committed to you. Not the world's version of love.. but agage.. Jesus' love.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#3
I have always had a hard time in understanding the whole eternal security thing..
I totaly believe that we are saved by grace, and not by works, if it was by works we would be doomed. But i also believe that if you truly accept jesus into you heart you can't be the same person, you are different in you actions and everything, people will see a change happening in our life. I know we don HAVE to do anything but somedody that trully have Jesus on their hears can't leave just like the world. (2 chorinthians 5:17)Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am not saying that we can be perfect, cause we can't. we will always struggle in this life and there will be times when we wont feel God so close, but that is not an excuse to do whatever we want...

I believe that it is only when we know in our hearts that we are saved and accepted for Heaven simply by faith alone in Christ dying for our sins. When we know and are secure in the fact that we cannot acheive Heaven by any works/goodness of our own do we truly know we are secure with our Father in Heaven. When we then realise we are incapable in ourselves of producing works with Godly motives and that our only power to live the Christian life is the Holy Spirit's power within us when we trust in Christ, works will flow from our lives. but they flow by the power of the Spirit. And we are in a loving/secure relationship with God because we know our salvation totally depends on what Chrtist did for us and his imputerd righterousness to us.
If we focus on works and judge our Christianity according to our works/goodness we surely are not soley basing our hope of Heaven in what Christ did for us on the cross. Therefore we are believing in a righteousness at least in part of works.

We have to be very careful to avoid this. The works come because we know we are loved and secure with God by what Christ did for us on the cross. And it is only when we know in our hearts that our only acceptance into Heaven is believing in Christ dying for us on the cross that we can truly live as God would have us live

It is knowing that works are not a requirement for salvation that brings the only true works acceptable to the Father. But works for each of us are very different. It is what the Father through the Spirit has called the individual to. For a mother for example, her work may simply be to bring up her children in a loving, secure home and teach them of God and Christ, and the scriptures, and show the respect and love to her husband scripture requires.

Let us not judge what each others works must entail

So we can say truly

To God be all the glory.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#4
We will see change in our life over time. It's important to remember it's over time.

Once Jesus saves you nothing and no one can take you out of His hands. You are saved for life.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#5
I have always had a hard time in understanding the whole eternal security thing..
I totaly believe that we are saved by grace, and not by works, if it was by works we would be doomed. But i also believe that if you truly accept jesus into you heart you can't be the same person, you are different in you actions and everything, people will see a change happening in our life. I know we don HAVE to do anything but somedody that trully have Jesus on their hears can't leave just like the world. (2 chorinthians 5:17)Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am not saying that we can be perfect, cause we can't. we will always struggle in this life and there will be times when we wont feel God so close, but that is not an excuse to do whatever we want...
When we first believed, we were touched by the Holy Spirit, and He planted in us God's seed, the birth as the children of God. This is a miracle, and we know that the Spirit is in us. But as people, we are at that time still moved about by the things which always moved us about before we received this seed from God. Our flesh is just the same as it always was before, with the same desires and faults and likes and hates. Our minds are still mostly darkened, still in the control of so many lies and deceits, about ourselves and about others and especially about God and what He wants from us.

But inside of us, deep in our hearts, is the seed of God, and with this is the Spirit, almost hidden, a treasure beyond price. And through this we have access to God the Father through Jesus Christ. We can, with the perfect assurance of faith, enter into His presence to be with Him, to share in His love and life and holiness, because by our faith in His Son, and because of the Spirit's birth in us, we are His children, and we are in His eyes perfect and pure and holy and clean, and even in our heart, where there resides the knowledge of our sin, we have a clean conscience, because He has paid for all of our faults.

So we are encouraged to not be afraid, to turn to Him who is our savior, to draw near to God in the full assurance that He is our God, that He wants us to draw near to Him, that He loves us fully and desires to fellowship with us. And as we do, we find that we are changed, in His presence, from His glory through love into His glory. We become in this life, in our bodies, moment by moment, what God wants us to be. We are changed to be seen as the born children of God. As long as we are in these bodies, we can experience this change to a greater and greater extent, until we go to be with Him.

Now some would say that you must do other things to please Him, and that you must be this or that. But the change into godliness only comes by being with God. And we can only be with God through Jesus Christ. Scripture says that Jesus always lives to intercede for those who are drawing near to God through Him. Think about that statement. That Jesus always lives, to make intercession, to plead the case, to stand before God and plead the case for those who are drawing near to God through Him.

If you do this, the love of God will grow in you, and the seed of God's life will grow and become your life. You will not worry about works, because God will do the works, by His love in you.

In His perfect salvation,
vic
 
Last edited:
Feb 9, 2010
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#6
People misunderstand what it means when the Bible says we are not saved by works,like we do not have to do works after we come to Jesus to be saved.

What it means is we are not saved by any works we do being in the flesh to try to make it to heaven,which would mean false religions or people trying to live up to the law without the Spirit,or people trying to get to heaven apart from confessing Christ as their Saviour.

What it means is that any works that we do to try to make it to heaven,apart from confessing Christ as our Saviour,like false religions,or trying to live up to the law without Christ,will save us.

What the Bible is telling us is that the flesh can never measure up to the law and fulfill it,and any works we do by the flesh trying to get to heaven will save us.

The Bible is not telling us we do not have to have works,but any works we do trying to get to heaven by the flesh will save us because the flesh can never measure up to the law.

The Bible says we are to have good works.The Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
The Bible says faith without works is dead.It does not say have works to show your faith but if you do not have works then faith is not activated in your life.

But these works are works that the Spirit gives us being led of the Spirit.

We have to works to be saved but those are works of the Holy Spirit,and we are to have good works.

That stops the seemingly contradiction in the Bible that says we are not saved by works and we are saved by works,for then faith is activated in our life.

By the Spirit we can fulfill the law because we can be perfect in love,which love is the fulfilling of the law,and love does not sin.

You are not under the law if you are led of the Spirit because a Spirit led life will not sin,therefore the law cannot touch you for prosecution.

We are not saved by any works that we do by the flesh to try to make it to heaven,like people that try to live up to the law apart from Christ and having the Spirit,and false religions that do not confess Christ as their Lord.

It is not saying we do not have to have works to be saved,but any works we do apart from being with Jesus,will save us.

We are saved by works for we have to have works to have faith activated in our life,but those are works we do by the Spirit.

We are not saved by our works trying to get to heaven apart from being with Christ and having the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by our works when we come to Christ and have the Spirit.

We are not saved by works prior to being in the truth,not while we are in the truth.

We are saved by works after we are in the truth having the Spirit.

Matt
 
M

Musilany

Guest
#7
What confuses me the most, is that at the same time the bible says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand(jonh 10:25) it also says that the ones who loves me obey my comendments and also in 2 peter 2:20 it says. "I f they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Does that means that God wont give up on us, but can we just walk out and choose to not follow him anymore? or once we accept Him there is no coming back and no matter what we do from that point on we will always be saved.
Please help me to understand that...if there i a way....
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#8
What confuses me the most, is that at the same time the bible says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand(jonh 10:25) it also says that the ones who loves me obey my comendments and also in 2 peter 2:20 it says. "I f they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Does that means that God wont give up on us, but can we just walk out and choose to not follow him anymore? or once we accept Him there is no coming back and no matter what we do from that point on we will always be saved.
Please help me to understand that...if there i a way....
Salvation is friendship with God. Or, fellowship with God. I call this grace, being able to interact with God. The only way to have these things in through Jesus Christ. He made it possible for us to enter into a relationship with God that is true and complete, one that saves us.

Therefore, the commandments of God are but 2:

1)believe in Jesus Christ, the Son who has gone before us to God, and opened up the way for us in Him.
2)love each other even as Jesus has loved us, such that He gave His life for us that we might be saved.

Knowing these things, there are some who will receive this truth, and they will turn their back on God, they will not walk in the path that Jesus has set before us, and they will not come to have fellowship with God. These it would have been better that they had never heard the word of truth that is Jesus.
 
M

Musilany

Guest
#9
I understand what you are saying...But what about revelation chapter three when Jesus speaks to the church of sardis, He says that the people there had heard and received the truth but they would have to return, repent and change their ways(wake up). It also says that for the ones who OVERCOMES will never have theirs names blot out of the book of the bible...
And all throughout the book of the N.T. paul and the other apostles keep telling the people to be firm, to keep persevearing on their faith, to be prepared for the day of the lord because no one knows when he is coming....I undestand that as that God does expect something from us, not perfection of course but a change and a love for him...
Its hard for me to believe that people that accepted jesus on day and truly believed in Him and everything and then they turned theirs backs on Him, and wants nothing to do with Him anymore wil be saved..
But again I might be wrong....It really confuses me.
 
Oct 1, 2009
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#10
I understand what you are saying...But what about revelation chapter three when Jesus speaks to the church of sardis, He says that the people there had heard and received the truth but they would have to return, repent and change their ways(wake up). It also says that for the ones who OVERCOMES will never have theirs names blot out of the book of the bible...
And all throughout the book of the N.T. paul and the other apostles keep telling the people to be firm, to keep persevearing on their faith, to be prepared for the day of the lord because no one knows when he is coming....I undestand that as that God does expect something from us, not perfection of course but a change and a love for him...
Its hard for me to believe that people that accepted jesus on day and truly believed in Him and everything and then they turned theirs backs on Him, and wants nothing to do with Him anymore wil be saved..
But again I might be wrong....It really confuses me.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
Joh 2:25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

Joh 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Fast forward a few minutes later...
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
Just because someone "believes" doesn't mean they are saved. These Jews that "believed" became offended at Christ then tried to kill him. Does that sound like someone who was saved by believing then lost their salvation?

As for those who don't have works...
Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
If you're truly his, he will discipline you if you're being disobedient.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#11
I understand what you are saying...But what about revelation chapter three when Jesus speaks to the church of sardis, He says that the people there had heard and received the truth but they would have to return, repent and change their ways(wake up). It also says that for the ones who OVERCOMES will never have theirs names blot out of the book of the bible...
And all throughout the book of the N.T. paul and the other apostles keep telling the people to be firm, to keep persevearing on their faith, to be prepared for the day of the lord because no one knows when he is coming....I undestand that as that God does expect something from us, not perfection of course but a change and a love for him...
Its hard for me to believe that people that accepted jesus on day and truly believed in Him and everything and then they turned theirs backs on Him, and wants nothing to do with Him anymore wil be saved..
But again I might be wrong....It really confuses me.
When you confess and accept Jesus , His Holy Spirit resides in you. By this your life in body dies and your life in Jesus begins because you now live in his Holy Spirit in you.
Kinda like those dolls that have another doll inside and so on.
Accept the inner doll is the true living doll.
Then in His Spirit , with His Power and help, you overcome the wouldly body that you lived in before.
That is why the body is refured to as the temple, because it carries you in the living body in Jesus.
That is why Jesus died for us, then was raised, so that he may live in us, and we in him.
We just need to learn from Jesus how to live in him and overcome our sinfull bodies.
God bless, pickles
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
16
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#12
I understand what you are saying...But what about revelation chapter three when Jesus speaks to the church of sardis, He says that the people there had heard and received the truth but they would have to return, repent and change their ways(wake up). It also says that for the ones who OVERCOMES will never have theirs names blot out of the book of the bible...
And all throughout the book of the N.T. paul and the other apostles keep telling the people to be firm, to keep persevearing on their faith, to be prepared for the day of the lord because no one knows when he is coming....I undestand that as that God does expect something from us, not perfection of course but a change and a love for him...
Its hard for me to believe that people that accepted jesus on day and truly believed in Him and everything and then they turned theirs backs on Him, and wants nothing to do with Him anymore wil be saved..
But again I might be wrong....It really confuses me.
That's true. Eternal security only applies to those who maintain faith in Christ. But on the flip side, those who are truly saved, will never turn their back on Christ, and will always have faith in Him.
 
M

Musilany

Guest
#13
Its not that I dont believe in Eternal security, what i dont believe is that a person who has Jesus living in them can be and live a life just like the world. I dont see how after receiving Jesus you can possibly be the same person...
Thanks guys!!!
 
Jan 14, 2010
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#14
I dont believe in eternal security... The Book of Revelation makes that clear, especially in chapters 2-3, in dealing with the 7 churches in Asia Minor
 
M

Musilany

Guest
#15
I didnt day I belived in it, I am not sure about anything anymore...The same time the bible talks about predestination it talks about free will, and at the same time it talks about eternal security, in exodus and revelation for example talks about God blotting someone's name out of the Book of life.....

I dont know if we can be really sure about anything concerning salvation....Except by the way we Love Jesus and live for Him.....
I dont really care if I dont understand those things, I know who God is in my life and i know I am saved, what worries me are other people, i am so scared to say something that will make somebody to stumble, like eternal security for example. I know many people that think they are saved because somebody told them that, and i also know people that are so focused on the rules that they dont really do it to please the Lord but to make sure they are going to heaven!!!

So that is my opinion, for now I am just studying the bible and journaling everything i read, and meditation on it and praying that God will reveal the truth to me. I am tired of all this diferent doctrines and beliefs about salvation and other things, I want to know the real truth the one that is in the Bible by myself. Not what people say is the truth or what most make sense to them.

But I really appreciate everyone that tried to help me.
 

1Covenant

Senior Member
Sep 14, 2009
173
0
0
#16
If I may wonder into the pool...

Eternal security is a modern offshoot of the late 19th century and all of the 20th century from its parent reformed doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints." MahoganySnail did a good job of simply explaining it.

I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, but if you will, let me venture to say that I think the real problem is that while these categories are our way of dealing with what scripture has told us we lack the omniscience of God to apply it. Or to put it another way, God is telling us something about how he deals with us, but not letting us see the end, the eternal.
This is why I think "eternal security" is the wrong application for us though its original intent was to convey the fact that the truly saved are safe.
We are intended to wrestle with our faith even as Jacob wrestle for the blessing from God, knowing that our wrestling is not accomplishing the work but rather it is merely revealing the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, God is glorified when men see your Good works and Christians should be encouraged of their salvation themselves if their faith stirs a desire for good works. They should be encouraged when over time the Spirit works repentance in their life and bear the fruit of a life conformed to Christ's death on the cross. Remembering it is not these things that save you but being encouraged and humbled by the fruit of the Spirit.

In parting, let me say that we often don't think that works will save people but we are not careful in that we require the Holy Spirit to produce works in others according to our timetables so that we might deem them saved. In humility and guilt, I think we should feed our faith and not train ourselves to ignore the spirit's tug, while abounding in patience and mercy for the spirit to conquer others according to how he sees best fit, praying that they will not have to hit the muck and the mire before hearing the call.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#17
If I may wonder into the pool...

Eternal security is a modern offshoot of the late 19th century and all of the 20th century from its parent reformed doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints." MahoganySnail did a good job of simply explaining it.

I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, but if you will, let me venture to say that I think the real problem is that while these categories are our way of dealing with what scripture has told us we lack the omniscience of God to apply it. Or to put it another way, God is telling us something about how he deals with us, but not letting us see the end, the eternal.
This is why I think "eternal security" is the wrong application for us though its original intent was to convey the fact that the truly saved are safe.
We are intended to wrestle with our faith even as Jacob wrestle for the blessing from God, knowing that our wrestling is not accomplishing the work but rather it is merely revealing the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, God is glorified when men see your Good works and Christians should be encouraged of their salvation themselves if their faith stirs a desire for good works. They should be encouraged when over time the Spirit works repentance in their life and bear the fruit of a life conformed to Christ's death on the cross. Remembering it is not these things that save you but being encouraged and humbled by the fruit of the Spirit.

In parting, let me say that we often don't think that works will save people but we are not careful in that we require the Holy Spirit to produce works in others according to our timetables so that we might deem them saved. In humility and guilt, I think we should feed our faith and not train ourselves to ignore the spirit's tug, while abounding in patience and mercy for the spirit to conquer others according to how he sees best fit, praying that they will not have to hit the muck and the mire before hearing the call.
I have enjoyed reading what all have written here. I agree with , eternal security, is a lacking description.
Since God Our Father is limitless, to place a word that speaks to something set or finished would be to limit God.
But I struggle with how to express what God Our Father has been showing me. I think because as you say, all comes from him, but we have also a responce in faith. The closest I can come to speaking to this is being still yet serving. It is recieving yet giving always in Jesus. It is serving in faith, hope and Love as a praise and acceptance.A constant verb, that can be still.
But I believe that is why we are given the scriptures, God Our Father appointed the ones that could speak best in his message. :D
God bless, pickles
 

1Covenant

Senior Member
Sep 14, 2009
173
0
0
#18
But I struggle with how to express what God Our Father has been showing me...The closest I can come to speaking to this is being still yet serving. It is recieving yet giving always in Jesus. It is serving in faith, hope and Love as a praise and acceptance.A constant verb, that can be still.
God bless, pickles
I like the way that you put that and it reminds me of the Phrase "the already, but not yet," which is a way of describing the way in which the Bible promises the present presence of the future reality. This is the deeper end of the pool but this is an aspect of what we are talking about and I'll conclude by saying that our faith and salvation should operate with the view that "the hour is coming and now is."
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
38
#19
What confuses me the most, is that at the same time the bible says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand(jonh 10:25) it also says that the ones who loves me obey my comendments and also in 2 peter 2:20 it says. "I f they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Does that means that God wont give up on us, but can we just walk out and choose to not follow him anymore? or once we accept Him there is no coming back and no matter what we do from that point on we will always be saved.
Please help me to understand that...if there i a way....

This is precisely what these scriptures mean. These scriptures tell us that God is always faithful. They do not in anyway guarantee that we will always be faithful. Several scriptures in Hebrews also clearly describe a person who has been filled with the Holy Spirit, who then falls away and loses their salvation.

God isn't a Nazi in the sky who decides who goes to the gas chamber and who gets to live.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (King James Version)

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Either God gives men a choice, or He is lying to us.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
38
#20
I dont really care if I dont understand those things, I know who God is in my life and i know I am saved, what worries me are other people, i am so scared to say something that will make somebody to stumble, like eternal security for example. I know many people that think they are saved because somebody told them that, and i also know people that are so focused on the rules that they dont really do it to please the Lord but to make sure they are going to heaven!!!
There will always be insincere people who think they get a free ticket into heaven because they prayed a prayer at one point in time. There will always be people who are a little bit more sincere who go out and try to obey the Law to earn salvation (they don't typically realize what they are doing, in that they don't realize that they are trying to earn salvation by works).

All you can really do is prove to these people by your life that there is more to Christianity than what they understand. Only God can open their eyes to see.

Quest