Eternal security??

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,307
33
48
#21
CONTEXT

There are so many verses that get taken to be about eternal salvation.. yet aren't..

a prime example-

Galatians-

'Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by the hearing of faith?' from Paul.

Did you know this verse is NOT about eternal salvation?

Why?

Because Paul is writing to groups.. to churches.. this verse is addressed to a church. That church had the Holy Spirit dwell in amongst them as the comforter by their faith in Christ. They were already saved before they became one of Jesus' churches- one of His local assemblies.

So they as a group.. recieved the Holy Spirit as the comforter to dwell in the midst of their assembly.

Galatians is to churches multiple.. but with the writing being for each one individually.

So with the example of Abraham.. being justified by works.. this wasn't about salvation.. but after salvation.. he acted in faithfullness to Jesus and it was a righteous act by God.. and God rewarded it.


So the point being.. when you are looking at verses and passages.. you need to consider what kind of people are being addressed.. like a local assembly.. a church.. or is it to individuals to apply to them specifically. Once you have this part sorted.. then the verses start to have a different kind of application.

Like the word 'saved' and 'justified'.. the don't always refer to being eternally saved.. but sometimes being delivered from trouble, rescued, or as in the case of justified.. having something accepted as pleasing before God.

So with the likes of 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.. you gotta look at who the writing is addressed to.. the determines the application.

When this is sorted.. you find no doubt about eternal security.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#22
CONTEXT

There are so many verses that get taken to be about eternal salvation.. yet aren't..

a prime example-

Galatians-

'Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by the hearing of faith?' from Paul.

Did you know this verse is NOT about eternal salvation?

Why?

Because Paul is writing to groups.. to churches.. this verse is addressed to a church. That church had the Holy Spirit dwell in amongst them as the comforter by their faith in Christ. They were already saved before they became one of Jesus' churches- one of His local assemblies.

So they as a group.. recieved the Holy Spirit as the comforter to dwell in the midst of their assembly.

Galatians is to churches multiple.. but with the writing being for each one individually.

So with the example of Abraham.. being justified by works.. this wasn't about salvation.. but after salvation.. he acted in faithfullness to Jesus and it was a righteous act by God.. and God rewarded it.


So the point being.. when you are looking at verses and passages.. you need to consider what kind of people are being addressed.. like a local assembly.. a church.. or is it to individuals to apply to them specifically. Once you have this part sorted.. then the verses start to have a different kind of application.

Like the word 'saved' and 'justified'.. the don't always refer to being eternally saved.. but sometimes being delivered from trouble, rescued, or as in the case of justified.. having something accepted as pleasing before God.

So with the likes of 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.. you gotta look at who the writing is addressed to.. the determines the application.

When this is sorted.. you find no doubt about eternal security.
I don't agree with this. Paul is writing to a church, but the Holy Spirit is given to each individual believer, by faith. I have never heard of the Spirit being given to a church assembly.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
16
0
#23
I agree VW. How can the Spirit be given to an assembly, which is a collection of individuals, and not given to the individuals themselves? Doesn't make sense. I hope we understand that when the Holy Spirit is given, the Spirit rests upon individuals, as at pentecost each person had their own tongue of fire on their heads.
When Paul writes to a church, such as Galatians, he is speaking and writing to every individual member of that church. That should be obvious I would have thought.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
38
#24
I don't agree with this. Paul is writing to a church, but the Holy Spirit is given to each individual believer, by faith. I have never heard of the Spirit being given to a church assembly.

Hey VicsWagen, I think that he is saying that the people are technically saved without being Spirit Filled. They are just at that time babes in Christ, and Paul prays for these churches always that they come into a deeper faith in Christ. We all start as Carnal babes, but we can't die that way.

But yeah, people don't get the Holy Spirit as a group unless the entire group is made ready by God. People receive when God has made them ready to receive.

WigglesTime
 
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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#25

Hey VicsWagen, I think that he is saying that the people are technically saved without being Spirit Filled. They are just at that time babes in Christ, and Paul prays for these churches always that they come into a deeper faith in Christ. We all start as Carnal babes, but we can't die that way.

But yeah, people don't get the Holy Spirit as a group unless the entire group is made ready by God. People receive when God has made them ready to receive.

WigglesTime
We are not saved unless we are born of the Spirit. Jesus said that unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Paul is not talking about being filled with the Spirit to the Galatians, not until later. He is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#26
The Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) over a period of time has taken a perverted turn. It has been reduced down to repeating a prayer one time in your life. It all boils down to the Doctrine of Election, allow me to explain. This is a little long, but bare with me.

How does man “come to” God on his own “free will?” Or as James White once asked, “How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner (Eph. 2:1-5) who is utterly insensible (Rom. 3:10-12), and hostile (Rom. 8:7) to the things of God, believe (1 Cor. 2:14)?”

Scripture says that there is no one that seeks after God, no not even one (Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 14:1-3). The natural condition of man does not allow man to just “repent” and “believe,” because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 puts it, the natural man is “spiritually appraised.” In other words, they’re spiritually dead, under the dominion of the god of this world (Ephesians 2:1-5). Even from youth, the intent of the heart of man is corrupt (Genesis 8:21, Psalms 51:5, Jeremiah 17:9)! So did you, in your own free will, “choose” Jesus? Just how did you manage to pull that off, being the dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner who is utterly insensible, and hostile, to the things of God? You don’t make Jesus your Lord and Saviour, He is Lord and Saviour. You don’t choose Jesus, He chooses you. The reason you believe is because God has granted it unto you, not because you chose to out of your own natural ability.

“‘All that the Father GIVES Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has GIVEN Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.’ Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ‘I am the bread that came down out of heaven.’ They were saying, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, I have come down out of heaven?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.’” – John 6:37-44

As the Ryrie Study Bible points out in regards to John 6:44, ‘God must draw people because all are alienated from Him by sin, and those saved will be resurrected.’ God either chooses a group of people for His own purpose, out of His own kindness, for His own glory, or everyone perishes.

No where in the scripture does it say, ‘Now if you just choose Jesus, He has a wonderful plan for you in store,’ neither does it say, ‘If you just say this one little prayer one time in your life, and ask Jesus to come into your heart….’ First of all, I know this seems irrelevant, but allow me to point out that all men serve a purpose, whether they be elect or not. Second, Revelation 3:20, ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice…’ is written to the Church, not to the unbelieving, and is often times misused, and abused, particularly in modern day evangelism. Some how we’ve managed to refashion the true meaning behind the scriptures to fit our own modern day theological beliefs. For example, Acts 13:48 (NASB), ‘When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.’ But our traditions say, ‘…as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.’ Likewise, John 10:26 (NASB) says, ‘But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep,’ and yet again tradition says, ‘But you are not My sheep, because you do not believe.’ Scripture is explicit, God has an elect, He has chosen a people to redeem:

“And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’” – John 6:65

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” – John 15:16

“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.” – Mark 13:20

“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” – 2 Timothy 1:8-9

Once Saved Always Saved is not the one time in your life where you repeat a prayer one time. It's not where the pastor gets up and says, 'Just repeat this prayer after me this one time, and you will be saved... .'

Christ said in John 10:27-29, "My SHEEP hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give ETERNAL LIFE to THEM, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH; and NO ONE will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." With that said, we can compare that to Luke 6:46, "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" There's your distinction: His SHEEP (His elect, those chosen before the foundation of the world) hear His voice, and they follow Him; likewise, there are those that profess Christ, and don't do what He says, and if you read on Luke 6, it compares the two: a wise man vs. the foolish man.

You can see that same distinction by also comparing Matthew 7:15-23 with John 10:27-29, which says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Matthew 7:15-23 says not all men that profess Christ as Lord will enter into heaven, they will perish; likewise, John 10:27-29 proclaims that His sheep will never perish. Not everyone who emphatically declares Christ as Lord is a sheep, some, as Matthew 7:15 puts it, are ravenous wolves.

'All that the Father GIVES Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has GIVEN Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.' -- John 6:37-39
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
38
#27
Scripture says that there is no one that seeks after God, no not even one (Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 14:1-3). The natural condition of man does not allow man to just “repent” and “believe,” because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 puts it, the natural man is “spiritually appraised.” In other words, they’re spiritually dead, under the dominion of the god of this world (Ephesians 2:1-5). Even from youth, the intent of the heart of man is corrupt (Genesis 8:21, Psalms 51:5, Jeremiah 17:9)! So did you, in your own free will, “choose” Jesus? Just how did you manage to pull that off, being the dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner who is utterly insensible, and hostile, to the things of God? You don’t make Jesus your Lord and Saviour, He is Lord and Saviour. You don’t choose Jesus, He chooses you. The reason you believe is because God has granted it unto you, not because you chose to out of your own natural ability.


Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

God has never once given a commandment in the Bible, without also offering men power to perform it. If God says that men have a choice, then God will empower men in order that they may choose. The power is of God and the choice is of man.

Quest

 
H

HeartOfGod

Guest
#28
Isn't Eternal security Once saved always saved? Isn't that a Calvinist doctrine or belief? I once had that question as well too and I found these sites. I have heard people say that it's wrong and it's false teaching and then I have heard the other side say the same thing about their belief. Why does their have to be divisions with two different theologies? Since Jesus Christ founded Christianity in the first place, then why would he speak differently to either group of men? Apparently one has to be wrong and the other is right according the Hat-fields and the Mccoy's? I rather stick with the basic theology and the bible since it's less confusing. The New Testament Christians didn't have to deal with these types of arguments of today about founding fathers for each theology. I personally find it all confusing especially when you see church leaders from either group of though fall from grace. Then it all makes me wonder?



Once Saved Always Saved - fact or fiction

Once saved always saved?

Once Saved, Always Saved

Calvinism and Arminianism Compared

Arminianism vs. Calvinism

Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?

Calvinism and Arminianism

What a Mess! Calvinism... Arminianism... Hyper-Calvinism?
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#29


Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

God has never once given a commandment in the Bible, without also offering men power to perform it. If God says that men have a choice, then God will empower men in order that they may choose. The power is of God and the choice is of man.

Quest

Article from http://astandard.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/god-our-life-and-length-of-days-deuteronomy-3019-20/ that should help you understand this:


God, Our Life and Length of Days: Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

September 6, 2007


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” — Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.
WE ARE SORRY that this text has so often been abused in the history of the Christian church. Along with verses 11-14, we believe it has frequently been cited to exaggerate the ability that man possesses to lay hold of spiritual life in his own strength without the aid of the Spirit. We see something very different. Rather than suggesting any native strength that might lie in man, it seems more apparent to us that this text is heightening man’s responsibility in light of the awareness of the Law. Since Christ has descended from heaven, proclaimed His Word to us, and even extended mercy to us in the Gospel, the terrible reality of John 3:19 is only more apparent, not negated by this text: “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” In our text we see most conspicuously the command to choose life, the benefits of choosing life, and the great measures Christ has taken to remove those barriers to life in verses 11-14. However, it does not follow that man then possesses the innate capacity to obey these commands. God may and does command His creatures to do certain things that He often chooses in His sovereignty to not empower them to do.


I.) “That thou mayest love the LORD thy God…” Man should love God simply at the point at which he is made aware of God’s Law. It is indicative of the goodness and kindness of God that He would frame for us certain commandments in which we can live. It is God’s grace (yes, grace) that man should receive the knowledge of what pleases God and what grieves Him. God would have been just to leave us without this knowledge and to have simply sealed the condemnation of our entire race. He did this in the case of the fallen angels, and we dare not charge God with folly by claiming that any of His disobedient creatures deserve better. In receiving this law from Moses, the children of Israel had more light at this point than the nations around them, and we maintain that this was due to unmerited favor — grace — that they had received.


The problem is that no one actually does love God at the point of the naked revelation of the Law. This is not a problem with the Law itself, only with man who is too diseased in his mind to respond appropriately. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be,” Rom. 8:7. Our text is speaking of the way man should respond apart from grace, not the way he actually does. In teaching grace, we fear some Bible teachers make the mistake of implying that God was obligated to introduce the Gospel because the Law itself was severe, unreasonable, or overly meticulous. To the contrary, it was necessary that the Lord Jesus Christ keep this Law completely to the end that His righteousness might be imputed to our account. And the life that He lived was in perfect obedience to a Law that is “holy, just, and good,” (Rom. 7:12).


II.) “…for He is thy life…” This must be true of every human being God is pleased to create. We live, move, and have our being in God. “He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation,” Acts 17:25-26. To the extent that this is not acknowledged by any individual man created in God’s image, that man will be frustrated at the very core of his being. He cannot escape the fact that God is his life. Essential to the Christian’s peace is that he has embraced this reality.


III.) “…[He is] the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers…” This is a particularly important point to emphasize in our day of modern health care, nutrition, and fitness mania. While God must be praised for giving us insight regarding how the human body may be improved and nurtured, this often tempts us to believe that our attendance to these things alone determines how long we live. It doesn’t. God Himself is the length of our days, and our obedience to Him has far more to do with our lifespan than what foods we prefer or how frequently we are in the gym. We have become far too accustomed in the 21st century to assume that a man’s moral and spiritual state before God is irrelevant to his lifespan as long as it has no perceptible impact on his health.


Even some Christians practically deny this. If a man gets drunk to the point that he destroys his liver and dies, almost any Christian will admit that the man’s sin attributed to the cessation of his life. But our text is teaching that our obedience to God’s commands affects our lifespan in ways that are not always so clearly perceived. By choosing the life of blessing, God ordinarily sustains His people in ways for which modern science cannot easily account. We suggest that our text sheds light on the prevalence of heart disease, cancer, AIDS, and a host of other diseases that afflict mankind.


Irrespective of how radical this may seem to us today, the Bible is consistent in its teaching that death is the wages of sin, not a natural phenomena inherent to the evolutionary process. Let us take heed to give God His due in this matter, and not allow our thinking to be conformed to this present, evil world. Should we be surprised or uncomfortable to share a different view on these matters when we are told so plainly the way the ungodly think and why? “The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts,” Psa. 10:4.
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#30
I know someone will probably make mention of some of these verses, so I'm going to get a head start.

*[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 3:16 - The Entire World?[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.’ -- [FONT=&quot]John 3:16 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]‘World’ here translates from the Greek word ‘kosmos.’ ‘Kosmos’ has several meanings behind it, which include ‘the universe,’ ‘the circle of the earth,’ ‘the earth,’ ‘the inhabitants of the earth,’ ‘any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort.’ According to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, there’s approximately eight different meanings behind the term ‘kosmos.’ Also noted, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon points out that the usage of the term in John 3:16 actually refers to a particular group of people, ‘[FONT=&quot]of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]’[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we refer to other verses throughout the entire span of the Scriptures, we’ll clearly see that the term ‘world’ has various meanings. John 7:7, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. John 15:19, ‘world’ refers to everyone besides believers. 1 Corinthians 4:9, ‘world’ refers to everyone who saw the disciples. John 12:19, ‘world’ refers to many men, though not all men, of a certain region. 2 Peter 2:5, ‘world’ refers to the ungodly. 1 John 3:1, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. If we are to say that the term ‘world’ means ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then we run into a bit of a problem, such as in 1 John 5:19, which states:[/FONT]
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We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.’—1 John 5:19

[FONT=&quot]If ‘world’ truly meant ‘everybody, everywhere,’ this would mean that everyone, even true genuine believers are under the dominion of Satan. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]As far as 1 John 2:2 goes, since I know there are some here making reference to it, it really just boils down to understanding who the book was written by, and who it is addressed to. As John Samson pointed out in his article titled Understanding 1 John 2:2, ‘…the First Epistle of John, which is a letter written to a primarily Jewish audience. So in 1 John 2:2, as in the rest of the letter, we have the Apostle John, a Jew, writing primarily to fellow Jewish believers in the Messiah. He writes of Jesus Christ being ‘the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (Hebrews), but also for the whole world (Gentiles).’ Cross reference 1 John 2:2 and John 11:51-52: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
1 John 2:2 (NASB), ‘He Himself[a] is the propitiation for our sins[c]; and not for ours only[d], but also[e] for those of the whole world.[f]’

John 11:51-52 (NASB), ‘…Jesus[a] was going to die for the nation[c], and not for the nation only[d], but in order that He might also[e] gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.[f]’
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[FONT=&quot]Likewise, Revelation 5:9 also points out, ‘… for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Take note scripture does not say ‘everyone from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Scripture is clear that Christ died for the sake of His people (Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21); the children of God who are scattered abroad, men from every tribe, tongue, and nation -- the ‘world’ (John 11:51-52, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9-10); the Church (Ephesians 5:25, Acts 20:28); the Sheep (John 10:11-15). Christ said in John 17:9-10, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
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1 Timothy 2:4 – All Men to be Saved?


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ – 1 Timothy 2:1-4

The Greek term ‘pas,’ otherwise, ‘all,’ can mean ‘individually[FONT=&quot]’ or it could mean, ‘collectively.’ Allow me to first point out that ‘all men’ as seen in 1 Timothy 2:4 is in reference to all types of men, ‘for kings and all who are in authority’ – types of people. [/FONT]

To those that would argue that ‘all men’ means ‘everyone, everywhere,’ when John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness of Judea (Matthew 3), did ‘all’ of Judea (v. 5), that is, ‘everybody, everywhere’ get baptized (v. 6)? That is, every single individual in, and through Judea? In John 12:32, ‘And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself,’ is Christ referring to ‘everybody, everywhere’? If God desires all men to be saved, who can hinder His will? ‘But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.’ – Psalm 115:3

The words ‘world,’ and ‘all,’ as Thayer’s New Testament Greek Lexicon puts it, ‘…signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles,’ some from this nation, some from that nation, some that speak English, some that speak Spanish, etc. This can be seen in Revelation 7:9-10, ‘After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.


2 Peter 3:9 – All Men to Repentance?

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.’ – 2 Peter 3:9

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3:9 is one of the misquoted passages of the Bible, and it's not speaking of ‘all’ people. If we examine the chapter more closely, you will see this. Pay particular attention to who’s talking, who they’re talking to, and what they’re talking about:[/FONT]
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‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.’ For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” – 2 Peter 2:1-7

Notice the language used, ‘beloved,’ ‘mockers,’ ‘you,’ ‘them.’ The usage of these terms infers that there are specific groups of people this chapter is speaking about. First allow me to say that 2 Peter 3 is addressing fellow brethren (‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you…’) about the return of Christ, and why the Second Coming has been delayed.

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” – 2 Peter 3:8-10

Again, we have the usage of ‘beloved,’ ‘you.’ Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to when it says, ‘The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance’? He’s referring to ‘you,’ the ‘beloved,’ not wishing for any of ‘you,’ the elect, God’s chosen people to eternal life, to perish, but for ‘all’ of the ‘beloved,’ ‘all’ of ‘you,’ His people, His elect whom have yet to come to repentance, to come to repentance, to turn to the Lord. Can you imagine if Christ returned a couple hundred years ago? If Christ had made His triumphant return only two hundred years ago, then not a single one of us in Christ would have ever been able to come to repentance.

There is never a day that goes by where the return of Christ doesn’t cross my mind in one form or another, and as joyful of a day it will be when it happens, it is for the sake of the elect, for the sake of my own brethren that I’m thankful for the delay of the Master’s return.
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#31
Wow, that didn't turn out formatted well at all, and to top it off, it won't allow me to delete the post. Tough luck, try this one, it may make reading a bit less strenuous on the eyes:

I know someone will probably make mention of some of these verses, so I'm going to get a head start.

John 3:16 – The Entire World?

‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.’ -- John 3:16

‘World’ here translates from the Greek word ‘kosmos.’ ‘Kosmos’ has several meanings behind it, which include ‘the universe,’ ‘the circle of the earth,’ ‘the earth,’ ‘the inhabitants of the earth,’ ‘any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort.’ According to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, there’s approximately eight different meanings behind the term ‘kosmos.’ Also noted, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon points out that the usage of the term in John 3:16 actually refers to a particular group of people, ‘of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19’

If we refer to other verses throughout the entire span of the Scriptures, we’ll clearly see that the term ‘world’ has various meanings. John 7:7, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. John 15:19, ‘world’ refers to everyone besides believers. 1 Corinthians 4:9, ‘world’ refers to everyone who saw the disciples. John 12:19, ‘world’ refers to many men, though not all men, of a certain region. 2 Peter 2:5, ‘world’ refers to the ungodly. 1 John 3:1, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. If we are to say that the term ‘world’ means ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then we run into a bit of a problem, such as in 1 John 5:19, which states:

‘We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.’—1 John 5:19

If ‘world’ truly meant ‘everybody, everywhere,’ this would mean that everyone, even true genuine believers are under the dominion of Satan.

As far as 1 John 2:2 goes, since I know there are some here making reference to it, it really just boils down to understanding who the book was written by, and who it is addressed to. As John Samson pointed out in his article titled Understanding 1 John 2:2, ‘…the First Epistle of John, which is a letter written to a primarily Jewish audience. So in 1 John 2:2, as in the rest of the letter, we have the Apostle John, a Jew, writing primarily to fellow Jewish believers in the Messiah. He writes of Jesus Christ being ‘the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (Hebrews), but also for the whole world (Gentiles).’ Cross reference 1 John 2:2 and John 11:51-52:
1 John 2:2 (NASB), ‘…He Himself[a] is the propitiation for our sins[c]; and not for ours only[d], but also[e] for those of the whole world.[f]’

John 11:51-52 (NASB), ‘…Jesus[a] was going to die for the nation[c], and not for the nation only[d], but in order that He might also[e] gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.[f]’

Likewise, as Revelation 5:9 also points out, '… for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Take note scripture does not say ‘everyone from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Scripture is clear that Christ died for the sake of His people (Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21); the children of God who are scattered abroad, men from every tribe, tongue, and nation -- the ‘world’ (John 11:51-52, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9-10); the Church (Ephesians 5:25, Acts 20:28); the Sheep (John 10:11-15). Christ said in John 17:9-10, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.’

1 Timothy 2:4 – All Men to be Saved?

‘First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ – 1 Timothy 2:1-4

The Greek term ‘pas,’ otherwise, ‘all,’ can mean ‘individually[FONT=&quot]’ or it could mean, ‘collectively.’ Allow me to first point out that ‘all men’ as seen in 1 Timothy 2:4 is in reference to all types of men, ‘for kings and all who are in authority’ – types of people.

[/FONT] To those that would argue that ‘all men’ means ‘everyone, everywhere,’ when John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness of Judea (Matthew 3), did ‘all’ of Judea (v. 5), that is, ‘everybody, everywhere’ get baptized (v. 6)? That is, every single individual in, and through Judea? In John 12:32, ‘And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself,’ is Christ referring to ‘everybody, everywhere’? If God desires all men to be saved, who can hinder His will? ‘But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.’ – Psalm 115:3

The words ‘world,’ and ‘all,’ as Thayer’s New Testament Greek Lexicon puts it, ‘…signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles,’ some from this nation, some from that nation, some that speak English, some that speak Spanish, etc. This can be seen in Revelation 7:9-10, ‘After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’

2 Peter 3:9 – All Men to Repentance?

‘The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.’ – 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9 is one of the misquoted passages of the Bible, and it's not speaking of ‘all’ people. If we examine the chapter more closely, you will see this. Pay particular attention to who’s talking, who they’re talking to, and what they’re talking about:

‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.’ For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” – 2 Peter 2:1-7

Notice the language used, ‘beloved,’ ‘mockers,’ ‘you,’ ‘them.’ The usage of these terms infers that there are specific groups of people this chapter is speaking about. First allow me to say that 2 Peter 3 is addressing fellow brethren (‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you…’) about the return of Christ, and why the Second Coming has been delayed.

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” – 2 Peter 3:8-10

Again, we have the usage of ‘beloved,’ ‘you.’ Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to when it says, ‘The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance’? He’s referring to ‘you,’ the ‘beloved,’ not wishing for any of ‘you,’ the elect, God’s chosen people to eternal life, to perish, but for ‘all’ of the ‘beloved,’ ‘all’ of ‘you,’ His people, His elect whom have yet to come to repentance, to come to repentance, to turn to the Lord. Can you imagine if Christ returned a couple hundred years ago? If Christ had made His triumphant return only two hundred years ago, then not a single one of us in Christ would have ever been able to come to repentance.

There is never a day that goes by where the return of Christ doesn’t cross my mind in one form or another, and as joyful of a day it will be when it happens, it is for the sake of the elect, for the sake of my own brethren that I’m thankful for the delay of the Master’s return.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
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#32
God may and does command His creatures to do certain things that He often chooses in His sovereignty to not empower them to do.
I will never believe that a Just God tells men to do something that they cannot do. To tell them to do something and not empower them to do it - because it's His divine pleasure to disallow - is a mockery of justice and God's character.

You have two choices GraceBeUntoYou:

A) Take this cup of coffee into your hand.
B) Reject the cup of coffee that I am offering you.

Now, where is this cup of coffee GraceBeUntoYou? Where? Can you see it? Can you grasp it?

Now if you fail to take the coffee that I offer, who is at fault? Should I now sentence you now to hell because you didn't receive the coffee? Does that sound like justice to you? Would any judge on planet earth be just to allow you to be condemned for not taking the coffee?

Adolf Hitler couldn't be more cruel than this!

Quest
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#33
Romans chapter 9 is probably one of the most controversial chapters of the entire Bible. Some simply try to ignore the chapter altogether, others will grossly misinterpret the chapter in an attempt to finagle their way around the true meaning – simply because it doesn’t fit with their traditions, or what they’ve been taught. It’s like a piece of well seasoned meat that’s tough to chew, and difficult to ingest.

Some would have us believe the chapter makes reference to ‘nations,’ however, there is in absolutely no way that this chapter could be about nations, it just wouldn’t make any sense if it were. Let’s take a look at what it says:

“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: ‘THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.’” -- Romans 9:1-7

Pay particular attention to the language used. Not everyone that is born an Israelite is in fact apart of Israel, but it is those that are descendants of faith. Or as Charles Ryrie points out, ‘Not all Israelites (physically) are Israel (spiritually).’ Notice that verses 6 and 7 speak of descendants of Israel, of persons, not nations.

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: ‘AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.’ And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, ‘THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.’ Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’” – Romans 9:8-13

Like verses 6 and 7, again in verse 8, we have the usage of descendants, the children of God, children according to a promise… these are persons, people, individuals it’s speaking about. Some may assume that God loved Jacob, and hated Esau, because of something they may have done, but take note, that in verse 11, that God made His choice before the children were even born, before they had done any good or bad. It goes onto address this issue by further stating that God’s choice didn’t depend upon either of their works, but solely upon Him who calls. Verse 13, ‘Just as it is written, JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’ What may shock some people is, ‘…BUT ESAU I HATED,’ and I suggest that if that be the case, then you probably don’t understand the severity of sin, and the holiness of God. What should shock you isn’t ‘…BUT ESAU I HATED,’ no, what should shock you is ‘JACOB I LOVED’… as if God should love anyone, when in fact I would think that God should hate everybody.

“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.’ So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.’ So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?” – Romans 9:14-20

God will have mercy on who He wills, which doesn’t depend on ‘the man’ (referring to people/individuals) who tries, or ‘the man’who wills. Pharaoh (an individual, not a nation) was raised up with a purpose, for God to demonstrate His power, by dealing with Pharaoh and his army (Exodus 14:17). Other texts of God hardening the hearts/spirits of men are found in John 12:40, Romans 11:7-8, Joshua 11:20, Deuteronomy 2:30, and 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13. So then, ‘…He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.’ You’ll ask,
‘If God shows mercy on who He wishes, and likewise, hardens whom He desires, then how can He judge anyone?' Unknowingly, you make the same argument that Paul argued against. In fact, that is the very question that Paul drives us to in verse 19, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ Seemingly enough, Paul knew objections would be raised, and in spite, he fired back, ‘…who are you, O man, who answers back to God?’ Allow me to point out that this question absolutely makes no sense if what Paul was referring to is nations. If perhaps Romans 9 makes reference to nations, would people ever come to think that there is any unrighteousness with God (v. 14)? Would the question ever have entered into anyone’s mind? If that is what Paul was saying, people would hardly complain. Instead we hear, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?

“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.” – Romans 9:21-24

The potter here is God, the Creator, and the vessels are us, individuals, His creation. God has molded together each of us, He has made each of us with purpose, just as He did Pharaoh. Referring back to Romans 9:17, God raised Pharaoh up for the purpose of demonstrating His own power, and so that His name would be proclaimed throughout the entire earth. Likewise, as verses 21 through 23 point out, God has made vessels for His own purposes. On that note, to clear things up, God is not the author of sin. He doesn’t instill sin into the hearts of the reprobate, rather, He allows sin to take its natural course, just as God was using Pharaoh’s natural predisposition toward sin to harden his heart. Scripture has shown time and time again that God has restrained evil men from committing sin. While God interposes on behalf of His elect through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, He leaves others to their own condemnation. As Romans 1:24 puts it, ‘Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

“It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was ‘delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God’ (Acts 2:23), and that though ‘the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ’ yet, notwithstanding, it was but ‘for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done’(Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by ‘wicked hands,’ not merely ‘human hands,’ that our Lord was ‘crucified and slain’ (Acts 2:23). ‘Wicked’ because the intention of His crucifiers was only evil. But it might be objected that, if God had decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and the Gentiles should crucify Him, they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they are not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty, because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it emphatically be said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: ‘That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure.’” – Arthur Pink, The Sovereignty of God
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
1,420
10
38
#34
Just imagine for a moment that you are walking with some friends in a park, and a group of policemen walk up to you.

Policeman: "Take this pardon that I have for you, otherwise you will be arrested and thrown into prison."

You: "What pardon, I don't see any pardon."

Policeman: "Take it now, your time is running out."

You: "But I don't see a pardon, I don't know what the pardon is, how can I take it?"

Policeman: "You are not willing to cooperate. You are fighting against us. You refuse to take the pardon!"


You: *Beginning to cry at this point* "I am so sorry, I can't see a pardon, I just don't know what you are offering me!"

Policeman: "Alright turn around and put your hands behind your back, you are going to prison and then you will be hung by the neck tommorow to die for your crime."

You: *Crying your eyes out and screaming for help!* "This is not just, this is wrong, I can't be condemned for not taking the pardon that you don't offer!"

This is sick.

Quest
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#35
Just imagine for a moment that you are walking with some friends in a park, and a group of policemen walk up to you.

Policeman: "Take this pardon that I have for you, otherwise you will be arrested and thrown into prison."

You: "What pardon, I don't see any pardon."

Policeman: "Take it now, your time is running out."

You: "But I don't see a pardon, I don't know what the pardon is, how can I take it?"

Policeman: "You are not willing to cooperate. You are fighting against us. You refuse to take the pardon!"


You: *Beginning to cry at this point* "I am so sorry, I can't see a pardon, I just don't know what you are offering me!"

Policeman: "Alright turn around and put your hands behind your back, you are going to prison and then you will be hung by the neck tommorow to die for your crime."

You: *Crying your eyes out and screaming for help!* "This is not just, this is wrong, I can't be condemned for not taking the pardon that you don't offer!"

This is sick.

Quest
The point being, the only reason anyone believes isn't because of your own natural ability, as seen in John 6, but because of God who has shown mercy. And unless God has mercy, no one would ever want to know God, no one would ever have the desire to be with Him, because from the time we are born, we are hostile to the things of God! The only reason anyone loves God, is because He has taken out our wicked black heart, and given us a new one. May I suggest to you, that those who hate God, those who deny God, do you see any of them screaming for help? No, and in fact, most of the time what you do hear is them blaspheming Him, and spreading lies and deceit about Him. In order for anyone to ever be saved, it had to be on the behalf of God, not by your own choice.

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.' -- Ephesians 1:3-6
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#36
Amen to the post you put up Gracebeunto you, wonderfully written and a really great read. some people are still blighted with Pride believing that they in their hatefaulness against God, dead to sin etc.. still have the abitly to Spiritual discern.

Anyhow what wonerful posts.

Phil
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
16
0
#37
I can't believe some because they follow a man called Calvin, would want to explain away a simple bible verse that shows that God's will is for all to be saved.

We don't need to explain it away as not meaning 'all people in the entire world'.

We know it does not mean a selective choice of some people from this part and another from another part for a few reasons:

a) Jesus died for all. The bible says that. If Jesus died for all, then God desired every person to be saved. If Jesus did not die for all, then there are still a percentage of people in the world who can never be saved, and Jesus did not do a complete job on winning victory over sin and death and satan.
If we believe that through Adam all died in sin, then we must believe Christ died for all, where all means literally, all human beings who have , do, and will ever live.

b) The gospel is to be preached to every creature. Again, if God did not desire everyone to be saved, then Jesus and the early church would not have made evangelism to every creature in the world a top priority.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#38
I tend not to read these so-called great thinkers, because they are understanding scripture with logic and reasoning. Paul wrote that we should look among us and see that there are not many wise, but that God chose to reveal these things to the simple and the weak. The wise have a harder time coming to know God, because their wisdom and their seeking to understand everything gets in the way of simply believing that God loves us, and that He wants us to come to Him to know Him.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,307
33
48
#39
I don't agree with this. Paul is writing to a church, but the Holy Spirit is given to each individual believer, by faith. I have never heard of the Spirit being given to a church assembly.
In being saved they were individually given the Holy Spirit, indwelling them, but since Paul is writing to a group, the application is different.

Where do you see the Holy Spirit being given to a group? When they become one of His churches. The Comforter dwells in amongst them, which is the Holy Spirit.

The following verse is about conflict resolution.. where the Holy Spirit will be 'in the midst' of church brothers resolving issues: this isn't about salvation..

(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So that is one verse where the Holy Spirit is in the midst of church members..

then you have:

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Again.. the Holy Spirit dwelling in the midst of churches (candlesticks are figurative for churches) and this isn't about salvation.

Then you have the day of Pentecost.. the people there were saved before they had the Holy Spirit come down on their assembly at Jerusalem. Individually saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit.. but also the Holy Spirit dwelling in their assembly.

I could go on.. but the point really is that context changes the application of scripture. Who, what, where, when, why, how..

So if Paul writes to the churches in Galatia.. the book of Galatians has primary application to entire assemblies.. churches. There will be individual application.. but if like in Galatians 3.. Paul is talking to saved people.. they already have the Holy Spirit indwelled them individually.. and receiving the Spirit must be about an individual church receiving the comforter.

You can study this out for yourself
 
M

Musilany

Guest
#40
I started this discussion and now i just realied that its pointless...
there are many theologians that study their whole lives and believes in Eternal securities others do the same thing and believe in predestination other don't believe in any of those.

The Bible is not wrong or contradicting we just can't understand everything, that is the reason why we need to have faith.
And not ignore anything the bible says. I talks about election, it also talks about eternal security and free will. I think our minds are just to limited to understand how they all make sanse together.

I think that only GOD and We ourselves can tell if we are saved or not.