Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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Matt.25:31-46 is the judgment of the sheep and the goats, which will take place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. This judgment will be between those who made it through the wrath of God and the beasts reign up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. The sheep and goat judgment will take place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and at the beginning of the millennial period. While the great white throne judgment takes place at the end of the millennial period. So, these are two different judgments.

The Bema seat is where believers will be judged in heaven after the resurrection and being caught up, but not for sin, but to receive reward or loss of reward. The wicked will not be present at this judgment. The great white throne judgment, on the other hand, will be a judgment for all sin.
What separates the three judgements from each other? The Millenium Kingdom?
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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We don't read much about that body tho.

Neither can I find any scriptures that confirm - in case I am wrong and the soul really is immortal - that if a sinner is in the Lake of Fire that he couldn't escape. We only read about that great gulf in Hades/Sheol, not in Gehenna. Matthew also describes it as "outer darkness", which may be another challenge. Now, does "outer darkness" refer to Hades or Gehenna? I used to think to Hades, yet Matthew 25:30 speaks about the time when Jesus is back, so I suppose it does speak about the Lake of Fire. What if the fire is rather figurative? This subject is not so clear as many think it was. Even in case of eternal torment there are many different views. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 says our works are tested by fire, and I do not think it merely refers to judgement day, but the way we are tested in this life.
I refer you back to the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" in regards to the unredeemed receiving resurrected bodies. Since they are not entering into the kingdom of God, then they will be bodies that will endure punishment in the lake of fire.
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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I refer you back to the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" in regards to the unredeemed receiving resurrected bodies. Since they are not entering into the kingdom of God, then they will be bodies that will endure punishment in the lake of fire.
I agree that it is a resurrection, but as far as I am concerned both resurrections, regardless if conditional or unconditional immortality, they happen at the same time. I believe the Millenium in Revelation 20 is rather figurative, there is no other evidence of a LITERAL Millenium Reign but in that chapter.
 

LW97

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I apologize if we are switching the subject now
 

Deade

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I don't believe in Universal Salvation tho, that wouldn't make sense either, since it is the idea that after a time in the Lake of Fire everyone would accept God, however, this is equal (or almost equal) to purgatory. I also don't think that eternal torment, conditional immortality and universal salvation are the only possible theories. Here's another one.
There is no universal salvation. God is in the process of removing evil from His universe. That said, God is also not going to burn forever any humans or spirits. The final lake of fire will destroy all the evildoers and then the grave and death itself. BTW - Sheol and Hades simply meant the grave until the traditions of man inserted other meanings.

We don't read much about that body tho.

Neither can I find any scriptures that confirm - in case I am wrong and the soul really is immortal - that if a sinner is in the Lake of Fire that he couldn't escape. We only read about that great gulf in Hades/Sheol, not in Gehenna. Matthew also describes it as "outer darkness", which may be another challenge. Now, does "outer darkness" refer to Hades or Gehenna? I used to think to Hades, yet Matthew 25:30 speaks about the time when Jesus is back, so I suppose it does speak about the Lake of Fire. What if the fire is rather figurative? This subject is not so clear as many think it was. Even in case of eternal torment there are many different views. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 says our works are tested by fire, and I do not think it merely refers to judgement day, but the way we are tested in this life.
The Lord has promised He will resurrect all of the people after the millennial reign during the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:5;20:12-15). This is pictured in Isaiah 65:17-20. This judgment period will last 100 years, the little season that Satan will be released. The present day saints are not included here.

Now that are three judgements in case I am not wrong. But the Bible says both believers and unbelievers will be judged for their deeds.
The judgment of God's people called in this pre-millennial are judged right here on earth during our lifetimes: 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" All we are judged for is our rewards at Christ's return (see 1 John 2:28). :)
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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There is no universal salvation. God is in the process of removing evil from His universe. That said, God is also not going to burn forever any humans or spirits. The final lake of fire will destroy all the evildoers and then the grave and death itself. BTW - Sheol and Hades simply meant the grave until the traditions of man inserted other meanings.



The Lord has promised He will resurrect all of the people after the millennial reign during the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:5;20:12-15). This is pictured in Isaiah 65:17-20. This judgment period will last 100 years, the little season that Satan will be released. The present day saints are not included here.



The judgment of God's people called in this pre-millennial are judged right here on earth during our lifetimes: 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" All we are judged for is our rewards at Christ's return (see 1 John 2:28). :)
I 100 %ly agree with the last section. But I may have a look at Isaiah 65 again. I always wondered what the hundred years meant.
 

Crustyone

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Mar 15, 2015
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I ask Ahwatukee to look at the last verse in Isaiah chapter 66 and tell me where the dead came from, if not the evil people that are thrown in there? They are dead and the dead are unfeeling.
 

Deade

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I ask Ahwatukee to look at the last verse in Isaiah chapter 66 and tell me where the dead came from, if not the evil people that are thrown in there? They are dead and the dead are unfeeling.
Let's look at that: Isa. 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." I think that will be a memorial film or archive; kind of what we now have of the Holocaust.

God’s Memorials

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:

Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies. Anyway, hades is finally tossed into the lake of fire. You can't do that with a dwelling place.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.

When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

What about this verse: Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The “are” in many translations was added for ease of reading but changed the meaning. Below is the NIV version which renders it correctly. Where they were cast. Again, this is just another memorial preserved for the future.

NIV Rev. 20:10 "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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I may have a look at Isaiah 65 again. I always wondered what the hundred years meant.
An infant dying at a hundred years and the (unrepentant) sinner dying at a hundred years being accursed has nothing to do with a future time.
It's how believers come to view life in this world after coming to know Jesus, in who is eternal life.

We used to think a hundered years was a long life, but compared to never ending life it's like dying in infancy, or for a wicked person, being accursed with such a short life.
 

Deade

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An infant dying at a hundred years and the (unrepentant) sinner dying at a hundred years being accursed has nothing to do with a future time.
It's how believers come to view life in this world after coming to know Jesus, in who is eternal life.

We used to think a hundered years was a long life, but compared to never ending life it's like dying in infancy, or for a wicked person, being accursed with such a short life.
Why then does Isaiah 65:17 speak of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Think it through. :)(y)
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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The smoke of their torment forever and ever is clear enough!!
Matthew 25:46 is clear too. If one limits eternal punishment, then one is also limiting eternal life. From the grammar either both are eternal or both are not eternal.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Matthew 25:46 is clear too. If one limits eternal punishment, then one is also limiting eternal life. From the grammar either both are eternal or both are not eternal.
Exactly.....I made that point my own way and got accused of a straw man argument......pure ignorance
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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Why then does Isaiah 65:17 speak of the New Heaven and the New Earth. Think it through. :)(y)
I have thought it through. The new heaven and new earth God creates where righteousness dwells includes believers who are being made new in Christ right now. His righteousness is dwelling in us now.

Unbelievers don't see this, because they aren't born anew. Just like they think living to a hundred years old is a long life. It isn't.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Matthew 25:46 is clear too. If one limits eternal punishment, then one is also limiting eternal life. From the grammar either both are eternal or both are not eternal.
I agree some will rise with there new spirit incorruptible spirit to eternal life others will never rise .

The dead know nothing no pain nothing to lose, nothing to gain.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God is not mericiless.

Why would some paint him that way other than false pride?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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His righteousness is dwelling in us now.
Believers are neither heavens nor earth. If you do not even understand the meaning of a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, how are you going to understand other things?

1. THE EXISTING HEAVENS AND EARTH WILL CEASE TO EXIST AS THEY NOW ARE
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2. THE SEA WILL CEASE TO EXIST
...and there was no more sea.

3. THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL CEASE TO EXIST
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it...

4. THE NEW JERUSALEM WILL PROVIDE LIGHT TO THE EARTH AS A HEAVENLY BODY
...for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof... And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it...
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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Believers are neither heavens nor earth.If you do not even understand the meaning of a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, how are you going to understand other things?

1. THE EXISTING HEAVENS AND EARTH WILL CEASE TO EXIST AS THEY NOW ARE
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2. THE SEA WILL CEASE TO EXIST
...and there was no more sea.

3. THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL CEASE TO EXIST
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it...

4. THE NEW JERUSALEM WILL PROVIDE LIGHT TO THE EARTH AS A HEAVENLY BODY
...for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof... And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it...
First of all Nehemiah, I never said believers are the new heavens and earth. I said believers are included in, they are part of the new creation.

As far as the old being burned up, that doesn't include believers who are currently being transformed into the image of Christ, or the works done by faith in him.

As far as the bride goes, she's reflects the light of God who is Christ to the world now,

Ye are the light of the world. Mt.5:14

She's made clean before the destruction of the temporal. God is building his Temple now. She's revealed complete later.
 

JesusLives

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Oct 11, 2013
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God did indeed say the lost will suffer eternal torment and as a matter of fact the word used in Luke is TORCHER........and in Revelation TORMENT......the liars are all that reject the inspired verbiage and then peddle something contrary........

FOR EVER AND EVER is clear.....
You didn't answer the question as to who is the liar? You inferred that I was possibly the liar but that is not the question I asked you....
To refresh your memory I asked you who lied God saying the wages of sin is death or Satan saying if you eat the fruit you won't die?
 

JesusLives

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It always amazes me when you ask a question about a subject how often folks sidestep the question rather than just a straight answer of the question....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It always amazes me when you ask a question about a subject how often folks sidestep the question rather than just a straight answer of the question....
It is even more amazing how people can read something and then think it is all about them when they are not even the subject. I did answer...maybe you did not read the last line.....
 

JesusLives

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It is even more amazing how people can read something and then think it is all about them when they are not even the subject. I did answer...maybe you did not read the last line.....
You talked about eternal torment you did not answer the question put to you. It's not all about me or you it's all about Jesus. Deflect on answering questions much?