Evolution fact or fiction?

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do you believe we evolved from monkeys?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
J

JustWhoIAm

Guest
*Picks nose*

I wouldn't personally limit the Father to any particular method. I wouldn't argue against his design in any case.

Only thing I have to go by personally as a priest is scripture.

They're using theory (a stack of thin inductive reasoning) to remove God from the equation in school in order to make the kids, our greatest treasure, into just another number to be used by the system (this is only one method among many). THAT'S my problem with all of this, personally. If we continue to compromise on the issue of the well-being of our children, our future, we have even more dark times ahead.

God teaches that the individual is immensely valuable in his word.

America the great, indeed. Pfft.
 
K

Kisses1990

Guest
*Picks nose*

I wouldn't personally limit the Father to any particular method. I wouldn't argue against his design in any case.

Only thing I have to go by personally as a priest is scripture.

They're using theory (a stack of thin inductive reasoning) to remove God from the equation in school in order to make the kids, our greatest treasure, into just another number to be used by the system (this is only one method among many). THAT'S my problem with all of this, personally. If we continue to compromise on the issue of the well-being of our children, our future, we have even more dark times ahead.

God teaches that the individual is immensely valuable in his word.

America the great, indeed. Pfft.

You're a priest? You do know your pope endorses evolution and it is recognized as being true and compatible with Catholicism.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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Speciation generally involves no longer being able to produce fertile offspring, or any offspring.
That's speciation yes, fruit fly experiments have been studied and researched for years but even though observations were as you say the fruit flies were still fruit flies, they used fruit flies because of their rapid mutational rates, but most experiments were not beneficial to the species, also diversity adaptation mutations survival etc is not the central focus point it is the origin of species or where something came from in the very first place, you know as well as most others do that the evolution that is most talked about is origins.


Try to work this one out?

Although there are variations of apples they only come from apple trees, apple trees can only come from the apple seed and the apple seed can only come from within the apple (exactly as Genesis makes the reader aware of this fact)


We know that apples do not fall from the stars nor do apple trees, so with the power of reason and logic and even scientific research we can deduce that the apple seed came first. This is a dillema for evolution

Can anyone explain the existence of the apple seed by evolution's mechanisms, and I mean with factual observable evidence?
 
J

JustWhoIAm

Guest
You're a priest? You do know your pope endorses evolution and it is recognized as being true and compatible with Catholicism.
I am a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. A Christian (strictly biblically-based, but i do talk to God quite a bit).

The pope is a chump.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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humans technically are apes. We're one of the African Great Apes.
In your opinion.



There was no becoming man from ape.
That's what you say but many secularists teach that human beings share a common ancestor with apes, yes that humans evolved from an ape like prehistoric creature. If you don't believe that then where do you think human beings came from in the first place? and do you have any experimental evidence to support your claim?
 
J

JustWhoIAm

Guest
That's what you say but many secularists teach that human beings share a common ancestor with apes, yes that humans evolved from an ape like prehistoric creature. If you don't believe that then where do you think human beings came from in the first place? and do you have any experimental evidence to support your claim?
Chemically? It literally breaks down to dirt, interestingly enough.

IMHO we should all go back to that state. Humanity does nothing right for the most part these days but destroy.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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Humanity does nothing right for the most part these days but destroy.
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants, the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
In your opinion.



That's what you say but many secularists teach that human beings share a common ancestor with apes, yes that humans evolved from an ape like prehistoric creature. If you don't believe that then where do you think human beings came from in the first place? and do you have any experimental evidence to support your claim?
Adam and Eve, duh! Following the Great Flood, Shem, Ham and Japheth and their wives. Read your Bible.
 
K

Kisses1990

Guest
That's speciation yes, fruit fly experiments have been studied and researched for years but even though observations were as you say the fruit flies were still fruit flies, they used fruit flies because of their rapid mutational rates, but most experiments were not beneficial to the species, also diversity adaptation mutations survival etc is not the central focus point it is the origin of species or where something came from in the very first place, you know as well as most others do that the evolution that is most talked about is origins.


Try to work this one out?

Although there are variations of apples they only come from apple trees, apple trees can only come from the apple seed and the apple seed can only come from within the apple (exactly as Genesis makes the reader aware of this fact)


We know that apples do not fall from the stars nor do apple trees, so with the power of reason and logic and even scientific research we can deduce that the apple seed came first. This is a dillema for evolution

Can anyone explain the existence of the apple seed by evolution's mechanisms, and I mean with factual observable evidence?
Of course they are still fruit flies. We shouldn't expect fruit flies to be anything but fruit flies. If a certain population of fruit fly diverged enough to be so staggeringly different, then we would have to cease calling them fruit flies. Fruit flies will always be fruit flies.... If they are not fruit flies, then they are no longer fruit flies and can't go by that name...

I'm not sure that I believe that MOST mutations are bad. Every single one of us has a ton of mutations inside of them right now as we speak. There are lots and lots of bad mutations of course, but I think many are also neutral. But never mind the bad or neutral ones. They really don't matter and aren't the point. It's the good mutations that give a selective advantage that matters. Think bears for example. A mutation affected the pigment of a bear living in a snowy area and all of a sudden it had a big advantage over it's peers. It was more likely to blend in with the background and camouflage itself and thus not be spotted by animals it would eat and kill giving it a huge selective advantage. It was more likely to live long enough to pass on it's genes (which is all that matters in evolution) than it's alternative friends. After many generations, the white fur mutation become a staple and now we have "polar bears" a separate species of bear altogether, not created independently by God. Go back to brown or black bears and you can find a point where a lineage split as well and it has vastly different looking animals as it's closest living cousins. This is the tree of life. Many branches, many dead ends where extinctions happened.

All you have to do is extend what I just told you about a single, or in some cases, a few mutations, and you can get hugely different creatures. With enough time (though it can happen quite fast), you'll get all the species you see today at the zoo. Lions and tigers are close cousins just as we are close cousins of chimps and bonobos.

Now here is where your question seems to change from evolution to abiogenesis. I don't know where the first living replicating cell came from. I believe God made it. If you ask some atheist biochemistry students, they might tell you that God is not needed and chemical processes led to the first living replicating cell. If you buy that answer (I don't), and say God did not create life, but rather, chemicals did, the next logical question is where did the chemicals come from? If you go to physics students, they will tell you that minerals and the elements and everything on a periodic table came from the Big Bang. So where did the Big Bang come from? They will go on and mention something about multiverse and possibly say they don't know. Now, I'm waaaay out of my league here. But all I'll say is that I'm absolutely convinced that evolution is true and that all animals are related by a common ancestry. I don't know what happened before that. I'm perfectly fine believing God started life. Abiogenesis is NOT an evolution question. Evolution ONLY deals with once you first have life, how do you get such a variety of life. Evolution will not explain how life originated, nor will it attempt to. The furthest back evolution can probably take you is around the EndoSymbiotic Theory of the origin of Eukaryotes. I've just started reading about this myself and can't say much about it. But evolution is not an origins story of life. It's an origin story of species, hence Darwins title, On The Origin of Species (though much of the book he wasn't exactly talking about that and he was also totally wrong about a few things like genetic information)

To get to your apple question, it's kind of a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" type question, right? That's the crux of it anyway. Seems like a trick question. It's not, and I fully expect a great answer if I took this question to my teachers. I do know that the egg came before the chicken. Reptiles lay eggs. Fish lay eggs. They are slightly different, but they are eggs. You can actually see different spots of egg evolution in modern animals for an idea of how it happened in the past, not unlike the evolution of the eye. Current living animals represent a very good indication of the stages and processes that took a makeshift eye and transformed it into what we have here. I imagine a similar answer for the question of apple trees. The seed came first. No tree is going to magically poof into existence. It needs a seed to grow. The seed we are talking about may not be an apple seed as we know it. And when planted, it may grow something that looks very different from an apple tree. But it was this ongoing process, that evolved all plants and animals. There never was a "first apple tree" or a "first apple seed". Because every parent gives birth to an animal or plant that is the same species of itself. It's slight modification and mutation over generations that build up to copious changes. Again, there was no first apple seed. And there was no first person, either. We are all the same species of our parents. But if you could go back in time, you'd see an unbroken chain of survivors. Not a single one of you, or I, or the apple tree's direct line of ancestors ever died before giving birth. We are all miracles 4.55 billion years in the making!

On a last note, Apple trees are of course very different now than what our ancestors had. They probably barely resembled an apple we would eat now. Through cultivation and hybridization, we've evolved this to be the tasty fruit we enjoy now. It wasn't always like that. It was surely very bitter at one point. We are lucky to be alive right now.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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Adam and Eve, duh! Following the Great Flood, Shem, Ham and Japheth and their wives. Read your Bible.
I know that, I'm asking Kisses1990 the question :).
 
J

JustWhoIAm

Guest
We are lucky to be alive right now.
For what? The overprocessed and overtreated (or overly expensive) food we get in the grocery store?

Yeah, we're lucky, alright. We're lucky we haven't been wiped off the face of the earth altogether for thinking that we're smarter than God, that we can use the things of his creation as a bartering tool for little pieces of paper with satanic symbolism all over them.
 
K

Kisses1990

Guest
For what? The overprocessed and overtreated (or overly expensive) food we get in the grocery store?

Yeah, we're lucky, alright. We're lucky we haven't been wiped off the face of the earth altogether for thinking that we're smarter than God, that we can use the things of his creation as a bartering tool for little pieces of paper with satanic symbolism all over them.
Way to cherry pick a tiny fragment of what I wrote, take it out of context, and derail the thread with something off topic.

And who thinks they are smarter than God? I sure don't... It's cool to understand finally the truth about how he created things though...
 
Mar 20, 2015
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It needs a seed to grow. The seed we are talking about may not be an apple seed as we know it.
But you need the apple seed to grow the apple tree, evolution has no evidence to the contrary, the onus is on evolutionists to prove otherwise and perhaps many will not accept assumptions, you need hard factual observable provable experimental evidence for it to be a scientific fact. I try to follow the evidence where that evidence leads me, that is all I can do. There is no doubt in my mind and by observaing the natural world and cosmic wonders that some supreme intelligent supernatural agent is the causation of it all.
 
J

JustWhoIAm

Guest
Way to cherry pick a tiny fragment of what I wrote, take it out of context, and derail the thread with something off topic.

And who thinks they are smarter than God? I sure don't... It's cool to understand finally the truth about how he created things though...
That was my response to the entirety of what you just wrote. Apologies if i left room for misinterpretation (/sarcasm).
 
K

Kisses1990

Guest
But you need the apple seed to grow the apple tree, evolution has no evidence to the contrary, the onus is on evolutionists to prove otherwise and perhaps many will not accept assumptions, you need hard factual observable provable experimental evidence for it to be a scientific fact. I try to follow the evidence where that evidence leads me, that is all I can do. There is no doubt in my mind and by observaing the natural world and cosmic wonders that some supreme intelligent supernatural agent is the causation of it all.
This "apple tree" is a concept we've created. There is no epitome of the essence of an "apple tree". No original apple tree. Just trees that are more more apple like and less and less apple like. Now they are in their own species and can't mate with other trees. Trees too, if you go back far enough, you won't really be able to tell the difference between a tree or a bush.

This goes for all life. There was no first human, there was no first dog, there was no first chicken and there was no first fish. We come up with names like "human", or "fish" or whatever to describe current phenomenon. It's foolish to think something was always that way.

The oneness is on the creationist to show proof for their "faith" that an apple tree just appeared one day ex nihilo. Not the evolutionist...there is all kinds of evidence for evolution. Now I gave seven independent lines of evidence- DNA, comparative anatomy, embryology, fossil record, bad design, vestiges, and avatisms... There is overwhelming evidence. I don't need to be an apple tree expert to make this general statement about it...
 
Mar 20, 2015
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To get to your apple question, it's kind of a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" type question, right? That's the crux of it anyway. Seems like a trick question.
It's not a trick question as you point out it is an absolute dilemma for evolution, that's why the theory of evolution is a theory only it is mainly based upon assumptions.

and I fully expect a great answer if I took this question to my teachers.
I would be interested to know what they say, ask your teachers for factual provable scientific evidence and not their assumptions.

I do know that the egg came before the chicken. Reptiles lay eggs. Fish lay eggs. They are slightly different, but they are eggs. You can actually see different spots of egg evolution in modern animals for an idea of how it happened in the past.[/QUOTE]That's not proof for the chicken egg though, again we see assumptions based upon observations. You can't actually test many things with evolution because most of it is based upon millions of years of evolution and you can't test for millions of years of evolution which i'm sure you are obviously aware, you can only assume the prehistoric past.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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This "apple tree" is a concept we've created.
The apple tree is in existence and it is as factual as you can get about something existing, it is there to observe. How did it come into existence?
 
Mar 20, 2015
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The onus is on the creationist to show proof for their "faith" that an apple tree just appeared one day ex nihilo. Not the evolutionist.
The apple tree didn't just appear one day, if you believe what gensis says, God created plant life which would include fruit trees.

there is all kinds of evidence for evolution.
It would depend on what you mean by evolution, change (what you call evolution) happens and is observed and can be proven with scientific experiments, but i'm not talking about changes that happen withing species or kinds i'm asking about how something came into existence from the beginning.


Now I gave seven independent lines of evidence- DNA, comparative anatomy, embryology, fossil record, bad design, vestiges, and avatisms... There is overwhelming evidence. I don't need to be an apple tree expert to make this general statement about it.
You gave an opinion based on your observations, also, you claim it is bad design, how about you come up with something? can you create a life form from nothing? also, don't use the blueprint that is already there because that would be cheating, so what you gonna make from the elements of the earth?
 
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K

Kisses1990

Guest
Here read about the apple. It's a good article. I guess the modern apple's wild ancestor still exists in Asia. Pretty cool. What I meant was there is no "absolute" apple. No archetypal apple. No archetypal rabbit. They have different size ears and tails and very in color and shape and size...there is no "ideal" rabbit. They are just another animals, and they'll likely be gone or have turned into something quite different in a few more million years. The same is for the apple. We're artificially select for sweeter tasting apples, no doubt. Before people, insects did a lot of the selection for us. Does this really not make sense? It seems so clear and obvious to me... I think maybe you just don't understand how evolution works. Slow gradual changes make for very different fruit, in some cases, fruit came from plants that did not make fruit at all. Farmers have done amazing things to the plants. Have you seen the wild ancestors of Banana's? Like apples, banana's wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us cultivating them. "Apple" would have meant something very different to people thousands of years ago. The trees just did not make the same fruit as we have today.
 
K

Kisses1990

Guest
This is a waste of my time and I need sleep. I'll try to argue more tomorrow if I can. Goodnight everyone!