F I R M A M E N T U M

[kleronomos]

I did tell you: just because the shape is a two dimentional circle, doesnt exclude the depth and height below and above the circle.

Your interpretation refutes itself because it is not written, but if you want me to respond: The Word is Truth, it is not simply what it "appears when viwed from a fixed point". The Word is Truth. Absolute Truth.

If you draw a circle and give it height and depth doesn't it turn into a ball shape? Like if you spin a quarter really fast it turns into a ball also.


Have you considered the 'line drawn' in the way of latitude and longitude?

Doesn't GPS paint a fairly accurate picture?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

So the Latin Vulgate is wrong because you say so, and the KJV is wrong because it has 400 years. Is this the best you can do? Try to discredit the Word of God as a wrong translation?

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Latin is irrelevant because we have complete Hebrew & Greek manuscripts.

It's not a criticism of the KJV to advise a person to understand it in it's proper context.

If you apply today's definitions and usage to Early Modern English. You will often misunderstand the writer's meaning.
You must understand words & phrases in the same way as English speakers did 400 years ago.

That isn't opinion. It's necessary if you use the KJV. Especially if you want to conduct lectures.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If the Earth was literally a circle it would need to be a perfect circle and two dimensional; the earth is neither of those. Therefore the writer was not being literal. What the writer seems to mean is that apparently, from the perspective of the human eye, the earth appears to be circular in shape when viewed from a fixed point on the surface because people view things from a fixed point on their head.

If you could view things from every possible perspective simultaneously the earth wouldn't look like a circle. Therefore the writer is speaking in human terms. So the writer is trying to explain what a person should be able to see, not a God's-eye view of the Earth from outer space.

It's a good thing God didn't tell us how everything looks from his perspective.

How long would Genesis 1-2 have to be.... and how weird would would it all sound if he was telling us how things looked from
5 or 6 dimensions?

 

[Runningman]

Yes the two dimensional circle is the shape:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,

The circle, is where the firmament is "estabilished", where it was placed. That is why He "strengthened the fountains of the deep", so they could support the circle where earth ends and firmament beggins.

The Bible should align with reality when literal. When it doesn’t align with reality, such as the earth being a circle, as if often the case, we should look for a figurative meaning. There isn’t a circle drawn upon the face of the deep and if there was all evidence of that is gone now.

This is just talking about what is apparent from the perspective of your eyes when you’re standing in one place. We can confirm this is a sound interpretation because it’s testable and matches reality. My interpretation is accurate, yours is applying assumptions where none should be warranted. You aren’t leaning on the word, you’re leaving on your own understanding.

 

[Runningman]

It's a good thing God didn't tell us how everything looks from his perspective.

How long would Genesis 1-2 have to be.... and how weird would would it all sound if he was telling us how things looked from
5 or 6 dimensions?

It would be incomprehensible to us I’m sure, but all I am really trying to say is that the writer couldn’t possibly know the earth is a circle unless he was raptured outer space and shown a view of that. God doesn’t seem to do that often and there’s no written record of that happening. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Blain]

This is perhaps the most astonishing use of the word of God I have seen in a while, I mean using it to try to prove a conspiracy theory just astonishes me. You don't need the word of God to prove or disprove this theory it's as simple as understanding mass and gravity . Both flat earthers and non flat earthers agreee that the sun revolves around the earth right? well the sun has a gravitational pull due to the amount of mass it has which keeps it in the position it is in, the same goes for earth we also have a gravitational pull equal to the mass of our planet.

Now you see the problem with a flat earth is that if it was flat it would have very little mass to keep it in place in our solar system it would likely be pulled into the sun due to the gravitational pull of the sun assuming that the suns gravitational pull is strong enough otherwise we would be floating around space not held in place

I mean it isn't hard to understand if you understand how mass and gravity work if you don't then you have no place debating this theory as clearly you need to brush up on some stuff before you try to prove a flat earth

 

[tourist]

From that I would conclude that you don't read too well, and you don't relate too well either. Instead of getting your knickers in a twist, read more carefully.

You are making an argument based on the 400-year-old translation of a Latin translation of a Hebrew word. "Firmament" is not a word used in modern English except in the context of the KJV. Find a modern translation of the word, or go back to the Hebrew word.

Knickers is a funny word. I'm going to include in my repertoire.

 

[tourist]

So your argument is Im wrong because you say so, and you present me with nothing at all but your own understanding. You have to do better than that.

You are getting your knickers in a twist over this.

 

[Dino246]

-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:8 states, "God called the firmament Heaven." Verses 14-17 declare that God made lights and stars in the heaven, and verse 20 adds that fowl fly in the firmament of heaven.

So... the firmament is called Heaven, and that's where the birds fly, and where the sun, moon, and stars are. Are you still prepared to argue that it is "firm"?

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Firstly, these verses do not tell us that "the earth does not move". Rather, they tell us that, from the perspective of the Earth's surface, the sun appears to move (or not move, in these cases). You overlooked the narrator's point of view. Secondly, they are anomalous cases (miracles) and cannot be used for describing the normal state of the Earth and sun.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

There are several things you are overlooking here. Firstly, though it is a plausible conclusion, the verse does not actually say anything about this "circle" being the Earth. Secondly, it is quite possible that God did inscribe a circle on the face of the deep (water-covered planet Earth) and inside that circle is where He made land appear. The pre-flood Earth shape is not visible to us today, though the artistic renderings I have seen do show Pangaea as roughly circular. Nothing here requires the whole Earth to be flat.

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon are both "great lights" and they move relative to the earth, not the other way around.

Both of these are silly conclusions made by misunderstanding, misinterpreting, or simply not reading the relevant verses.

And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Wow... I've seen some silly arguments, but that takes the cake for today. Is your face flat? If so, my condolences. Let the Word speak, and stop filtering it through your own bias and ignorance.

Further, if you want to debate 'flat earth' ideas, this is not the forum for it. There are already several threads in the Conspiracy forum, where they belong.

 

[DanielLL]

If you draw a circle and give it height and depth doesn't it turn into a ball shape?

Yes, the dome firmament is a half sphere on top, and the cave of sheoul the other half sphere, but the earth you live is in the midle, within the circle, not on top of the firmament, neither bellow sheoul.

Latin is irrelevant because we have complete Hebrew & Greek manuscripts.

The Word of God is not "irrelevant" in any language. I don't know why you reject the Word, the Hebrew is the same: the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it

There isn’t a circle drawn upon the face of the deep

The Witness of God is greater:
Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

the writer couldn’t possibly know the earth is a circle

The writer had to know the earth is a circle, because Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, so if there is anyone who knows the earth is a circle, is the writter, because of the Holy Spirit. All knowledge comes from God.

it isn't hard to understand

It isn't hard to understand to those to whom it is given, but to those to whom it is not given, it is impossible to understand. All those physic and matter and gravity you preach, are nothing but the witnesses of men, you have to understand, the witness of God is greater.

Genesis 1:8 states, "God called the firmament Heaven."

The thread is on the firmament, not heaven. Because there are seven heavens, it is better to specify and call it firmament, so you know which heaven I am talking about.

these verses do not tell us that "the earth does not move".

Sure they do. If the sun receives a command to stand still, and the sun stands still, it means the earth wasn't moving to begin with. If the earth were moving, they would have to command the earth to stand still too, in order to have the sun standing still. But because only the sun moves, they only commanded the sun to stand still.

Nothing here requires the whole Earth to be flat.

Is your face flat?

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

It is not my face, it was a circle on the "face of the deep". "Circle" is a geometric figure, so in context the face of the deep is a surface of flat waters in terms of geometry:
פָנִים From the sense of surface, Genesis 1:2 - In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface

 

[Dino246]

The thread is on the firmament, not heaven.

"God called the firmament Heaven", so it is impossible to have a conversation about the firmament and not have it about heaven.

Because there are seven heavens

Not in Scripture there aren't.

it is better to specify and call it firmament, so you know which heaven I am talking about.

Only, that doesn't limit which 'heaven' you are discussing; see my first point above.

Sure they do. If the sun receives a command to stand still, and the sun stands still, it means the earth wasn't moving to begin with.

No, it doesn't. That's a non sequitur.

If the earth were moving, they would have to command the earth to stand still too, in order to have the sun standing still. But because only the sun moves, they only commanded the sun to stand still.

Nothing in the text states or implies that only the sun moves. Again, you are ignoring the perspective of the participants and the narrator.

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

It is not my face, it was a circle on the "face of the deep". "Circle" is a geometric figure, so in context the face of the deep is a surface of flat waters in terms of geometry:

Simply wrong. One can also inscribe a perfect two-dimensional circle on the face of a sphere, a spheroid, an ovoid, a torus, and probably quite a few other shapes, the names of which I don't have handy. I'd suggest you think before you post again, though if you are set on embarrassing yourself, I will happily assist you in doing so.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Typical flat earther. Everything they accuse others of they're guilty of themself.

 

[Blain]

@DanielLL Can you give me your take on my explanation on how mass and gravity work? I have challeneged many flat earthers with this and not one has been able to meet it and debunk it, assuming of course that they had a basic grasp on how mass and gravity works to begin with but again without such basic knowledge one has no place trying to prove a flat earth in fact without a good understanding of physics and science one should know better than to try to prove a flat earth

 

[DanielLL]

such basic knowledge

All who hate Wisdom, love death. The Word is Truth. Those who reject the Word reject the Truth.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Rejecting the Word in order to keep the traditions of men.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Taking the witness of men over the witness of God. That is what I see here. You have attacked the Word, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV, and now you are attacking me:

embarrassing yourself, I will happily assist you in doing so.

silly conclusions made by misunderstanding, misinterpreting, or simply not reading

I forgive you, I understand it is impossible to rebuke the Word of Truth, none can speak against the Word:
1 Samuel 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

 

[Blain]

All who hate Wisdom, love death. The Word is Truth. Those who reject the Word reject the Truth.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Rejecting the Word in order to keep the traditions of men.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Taking the witness of men over the witness of God. That is what I see here. You have attacked the Word, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV, and now you are attacking me:




I forgive you, I understand it is impossible to rebuke the Word of Truth, none can speak against the Word:
1 Samuel 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

So am I to assume you also cannot explain it away either? You know that God created everything and he created everything to work as it does that includes how physics and science works as well meaning without mass the earth would just drift along in outer space. God in his infinite wisdom knew what he was doing when he created the heavens and the earth and frankly I don't approve how you use his holy word against others the word of God is holy and sacred and is not a toy to use as we please just because you cannot properly respond to or properly debunk another persons post doesn't give you the right to mistreat his word as a childish resort because you have no other response to give.

If you cannot explain away my explanation then so be it but at least be mature about it and I would also appreciate it if you would respond to others in a more mature manner as well and not use scripture as a childish mockery against others

 

[Dino246]

All who hate Wisdom, love death. The Word is Truth. Those who reject the Word reject the Truth.

And so you attack others by your implications. Blain is a humble seeker of biblical wisdom, and I will attest to the fact that he has not rejected the Word of God.

You have attacked the Word, the Latin Vulgate, the KJV, and now you are attacking me

You are confused. If I wanted to attack any of those you listed, I would do so, and there would be no confusion about it. I haven't done so. You are a newcomer to this board, yet in your first day you have attacked others. As such, you have earned the words of rebuke you have received.

I forgive you, I understand it is impossible to rebuke the Word of Truth, none can speak against the Word:
1 Samuel 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

Take the truckload of logs out of your own eye.

 

[Blain]

And so you attack others by your implications. Blain is a humble seeker of biblical wisdom, and I will attest to the fact that he has not rejected the Word of God.


You are confused. If I wanted to attack any of those you listed, I would do so, and there would be no confusion about it. I haven't done so. You are a newcomer to this board, yet in your first day you have attacked others. As such, you have earned the words of rebuke you have received.


Take the truckload of logs out of your own eye.

I appreciate you standing up for me my friend, it would seem this is the type of person to be quick to attack and also quick to cry being attacked. He knows the scriptures but knowing them does no good if you don't know how to use them and quite frankly I am not impressed he speaks pleny about wisdom and truth but wisdom requires one to accept truth given when it is presented and not simply reject it because it doesn't fit out narrative, then to so blantently misuse and mistreat the scriptures as he does is appalling to say the least on top of that how he attacks others and then plays the victim when given rebuke and rightly given at that he is simply not mature enough to hold his own in such discussions.

I think at this point we have to assume he is not spiritually mature enough to debate heavy topics and whether he sees it or not it shows profoundly, often times we require an outside view of ourselves to really see ourselves and that is often through the eyes of others. Now if he has wisdom like he seems to think he does he will take what I say here to heart.

 

[JStates]

Fellow Biblical Cosmologist/Flat Earther? If so, you might get a frosty reception around here. Anyways, here is my take on Biblical Cosmology:

 

[JStates]

Job_37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

 

[Mem]

Firmament translates "surface; which root word is 'face'- everything has a surface, but the use of the word firmament is meant to imply a surface that is spread out but not necessarily always flat. Water has a liquid surface, the land a solid surface, the sun a gaseous surface... and so all these have firmaments, or expansive surfaces of, them.