Faith and Deeds

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#41
You are wrong about the 144;

Rev 14 says these are redeemed from the earth. If it were tribal Jews, it would be more specific and say something like "...these were redeemed from Israel or Jerusalem...".
In the same chapter again, it said that they were purchased from among the mankind; if it means tribal Jews only then it would be better to say "...they were purchased among the Israelites or Jews .."

You don't know about the 144k but i'm going to give you a revelation of who they are.

In the new covenant there's no such thing as revival of tribal Jews, the real Jews in the eyes of God are believers, a non believer is a synagogue of satan (Rev 2:9/ Rev 3:9).
There are two groups of believers; the unfaithful believer who are by far the majority of believers and are symbolized by: Jerusalem/Church of Smyrna. These group are unfaithful mainly because they don't know God and their faith has to be refined in fire which means they will undergo tribulation and die for their faith.

The second group of believers are the 144k believers; they are symbolized as Judah/remnant of Judah/ Church of Philadelphia. These are faithful believers who know God. They won't die from tribulation and these are the ones that make up the temple of God/The new Jerusalem (Rev 21) as was promised to them in Rev 3.

These two groups have been taken captive and are in Babylon- figuratively means we are all under the rule of antichrist, but God watches over the 144k so that no harm befalls them. the antichrist will pursue and kill the other group of believers. And for these reason, Jesus said:

Luke 21: 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.21Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

Matt 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Luke 19:41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

All these has nothing to do with what happened or will happen physically as some claim, these have a hidden spiritual meaning. This is the same script as the old testament when the tribal Jews (the two groups -Jerusalem & Judah) were taken captive into Babylon. that was indeed a prophesy of what is happening to us now.

Read Jeremiah 24 and understand what happens- in summary; Jerusalem was taken captive and they all died but the remnant of Judah was taken captive, and were protected by God. These included Daniel/Meshack/Abednego. They represent the 144k believers of our time.
This is a very nice chapter that explains better, who the 144k are:

Jer 24:
1 After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”

4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them.

7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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#42
Absolutely, yet at what point was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? When he believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 or not until after he obeyed God by setting out to sacrifice Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? *Also see Romans 4:2-3.
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

There is the Commandment.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

There is the obedience.

Had Abram decided to "go bury his father first", or stay in his country and decide God's instruction was too burdensome or unjust, would he still have been accepted?

What if he did these things and still told everyone he was a servant of God?

Abram's obedience "WAS HIS FAITH". He did this before God changed his name, before God's commandment to offer his son.

Why people go to such extreme to preach Abraham's faith was "apart" from obedience is truly fascinating. His sins were forgiven, apart from the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" which came 430 years later, but he believed in God enough to do as God instructed and this is called "The faith of Abraham".
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#43
'Faith alone' people either do not accept this passage, or they twist and explain it away.
There is no such thing as faith alone, faith is never alone.

Works people do not accept this, you twist it and explain it away
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#44
It can be argued that if Abram hadn't circumcised himself he would have been cut off from GOD's promises.
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

Here's another one that supports that. Noah believed GOD, yet he saved himself by building an ark and getting on-board it.

It could be argued, but it would fail miserably, because abraham would only not obey god if he did not have faith, thus he never would have been declaired righteous BEFORE he was circumcised. His curcumcision had nothing to do with it,
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#45
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
In the first part of this great passage we get context.

1. The context are people who CLAIM to have faith (it never said they had faith, it was a claimed faith)
2. these people who claimed to have faith, had no works whatsoever, they were hearers of the word, but not doers
3. the question, can this CLAIMED faith save them?


Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
he further shows how they are hearers but not doers, then he goes on to say prove your faith apart from your deed, i will show you my faith by what i do (i am not a hearer only, but i trust what i read, and i do it.

he goes to show you believem you have a good start, even demons believe what profit did belief do for them?


You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:14-24
history

1. abraham was declaired righteous in gen 15, decades before he offered Issaac, so he was already saved before 1 work
2. Abrahams faith was proven when he offered his son. But also remember, in between this time abraham commited many sins, and had many victories,
3. Since faith alone is called a claimed faith or a dead faith, there is no such thing as faith alone, abraham proved it, so has James. So has all who ever has been saved by true faith. Since true faith produces work. True faith will never be alone.

However, james did not contradict paul in rom 4,they are in agreement.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
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#46
Amen, James was writing to the Jews who were learning to come out from under the law.


A lot of fancy explanations to make it fit Paul's doctrine to the body of Christ. Do works justify man's salvation, yes or no? What works justifies salvation and how often must one perform these works?

Context, context, context...who is this written to and to whom does this doctrine apply? James 1:1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The body of Christ, the church, is not the "twelve tribes". The term "twelve tribes" is never associated with the body of Christ but the nation of Israel as a whole. Using this term to describe the church would be counter-productive to Paul's teaching where there is no Jew or Gentile, but we are all one in Christ. The term "twelve tribes" makes a clear distinction between Jew and Gentile.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#47
Amen, James was writing to the Jews who were learning to come out from under the law.

True, but his book is applicable to all people

we have hearers not doers in our churches also, one does not have to be a jew to have claimed faih only
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#48
Faith alone, and not saved by works, when we initially confess Christ for that is all we can do, and after we receive the Spirit then faith without works is dead, and a person is justified by works, and not faith alone.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.

It is the work of faith for everything we do is a work, or think is a work, which Jesus said if you lust after a woman it is the same as if you committed the act, so whether a person thinks it or does it, it is a work.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith, so that means if a person does not abide in love then they have no faith to be saved.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

And this is charity, which if a person holds unto something contrary to charity then faith does not apply in their life.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James points out charity, and if they neglect that he states can faith save them showing that it is a spiritual issue, and says faith without works of charity, and to love God, and people, then their faith is dead, for a person is justified by works, and not faith alone, and if they lack works of charity then they are not led of the Spirit, for a Spirit led life will only do what the Spirit wants.

But many people that believe faith alone, and not saved by works, believe the prosperity Gospel, and go by their wants neglecting the poor and needy, and that is not love.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(money,material): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul teaches that if anybody preaches that God blesses with money, and material things, for our wants, withdraw yourself from them, having food and clothing be content, for the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, and that includes helping the poor and needy, and only going by your needs.

And there are many people that do not love properly, but then think they are right with God, but charity, love in action, is greater than faith, and faith does not mean anything without love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith works by love, for it is not faith alone, but love alone, and everything that we do that is right stems from love.

Faith alone, and not saved by works, when we initially confess Christ for that is all we can do, and after we receive the Spirit then faith without works is dead, and a person is justified by works, and not faith alone.

If someone reads faith alone, and not saved by works, and then reads in another place faith without works is dead, and a person is justified by works, and not faith alone, they are supposed to reconcile the situation, and harmonize the scriptures, instead of there being a seemingly contradiction, that is not a contradiction.

But some people will not harmonize scriptures, and why is that, for what is their motive for not doing it, which it can only be obvious they like to hear scriptures their way.

Do not call it saved by works, but call it be led of the Spirit and do those works, for we must do what God wants us to do.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
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#49
It can only first be understood from that initial context otherwise the people who received the letter would not have understood it,

this only enhances our understanding and it still has a important application, since there are many today still trying to be justified by the law.

To the saved Jews the Law of Liberty was a new concept, and He was teaching them how to make faith observable and how they would be rewarded in the new system.


True, but his book is applicable to all people

we have hearers not doers in our churches also, one does not have to be a jew to have claimed faih only
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#50
It can only first be understood from that initial context otherwise the people who received the letter would not have understood it,

this only enhances our understanding and it still has a important application, since there are many today still trying to be justified by the law.

To the saved Jews the Law of Liberty was a new concept, and He was teaching them how to make faith observable and how they would be rewarded in the new system.
I agree, just i do not agree the way john sees it, that it only pertaines to jews, not us, and that he was talking to jews under law. Not t under grace,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#52
It can be argued that if Abram hadn't circumcised himself he would have been cut off from GOD's promises. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14
That's not exactly saving himself because he was already saved through faith prior to receiving the sign of circumcision. If Abraham would have refused circumcision or would have refused to sacrifice Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.


Here's another one that supports that. Noah believed GOD, yet he saved himself by building an ark and getting on-board it.
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning (Hebrews 11:17).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#53
Why harmonize what Paul says to the body of Christ with what James says to the twelve tribes scattered abroad? Paul clearly teaches to rightly divide the word of truth. There are divisions to be made in order to divide doctrinal teachings within Scripture. Until this is understood, there will always be conflict trying to harmonize Paul's letters with James. One must use sly exposition to try and fit the square peg in the round hole.
Are you saying the twelve tribes of Israel that James wrote to were not a part of the body of Christ? James addresses them as "brethren" in James 1:2. I see no conflict with harmonizing Paul's writings with James' writings (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9; James 2:14-24). So how do you interpret James 2:14-24 and don't tell me that James is teaching salvation by works, as Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists teach.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#54
True, but his book is applicable to all people

we have hearers not doers in our churches also, one does not have to be a jew to have claimed faih only
There are things that the body of Christ can apply to our lives, but the entire book is written doctrinally to the nation of Israel as they will be scattered abroad during the tribulation.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#55
Are you saying the twelve tribes of Israel that James wrote to were not a part of the body of Christ? James addresses them as "brethren" in James 1:2. I see no conflict with harmonizing Paul's writings with James' writings (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 5:9; James 2:14-24). So how do you interpret James 2:14-24 and don't tell me that James is teaching salvation by works, as Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists teach.
James' use of the term "brothers" should not be confused with it's Christian usage. Paul referred to unsaved Israel as his brethren-Romans 9:3. The term "brothers" or "brethren" does not always mean Christians in the NT. Sometimes it simply means kinsmen.

Notice in James 5:19-20, some who James calls "brethren" need to have their souls saved. See James 1:21 as well. It is clear that there were those in James' audience who had not received the word of God, and their souls were not yet saved.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#56
So how do you interpret James 2:14-24 and don't tell me that James is teaching salvation by works, as Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists teach.
Understand its intended Jewish audience and Jewish content for God's physical kingdom people during the tribulation where one must endure to the end. Job is a great example to them to endure through patience, persecution and suffering. Job's 42 chapters pictures the 42 months (3 1/2 years) of tribulation the Jews will endure as they will be scattered abroad.

James is taking you back to OT times where a man had to live by HIS OWN FAITH. Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Paul makes it clear that the just live by the faith of Jesus Christ! Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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#57
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning (Hebrews 11:17).
But if he hadn't been obedient to what he was told he wouldn't have been saved. You're just playing with words to avoid admitting that very obvious fact.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#58
Salvation is not by work but by faith, faith in Jesus mean to trust or entrust in Jesus, Jesus teach If we abide in Him like a branch abide TI the vine, than we Will produce fruit.

fruit of the Holy spirit is pure love.

so deed is not save us, and we never able to produce a deed of ourself, like a branch can not bear the fruit of itself.

so deed not save us, but salvation produce deed.

John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

verse 4 say branch can not bear fruit of itself, Jesus never Lie, It mean human never produce pure love, or pure deed of itself

mean If salvation by deed, than No body save without Jesus

only when a man entrust himself to Jesus Will be save than bear fruit or deed.

salvation not by work but produce work, If one say he is save but No love, he is a liar

1 John 4:20

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

salvation by faith, but If a man say he have faith but do not love other he is liar, mean he not save, not because salvation by work, but because salvation produce work

that is why I love catholic and tell them that his religion lead them to hell

so we Openly tell them because of love. Not tell them how they religion send them to hell is hatred not love.

unfortunately people think otherwise, If one say catholic worship devil It considered AS hatred.

It is love, because try to warn try to pull other from hell.

And If one say, catholic is good, people think It is love. Wrong, It is hatred.


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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#59
In the first part of this great passage we get context.

1. The context are people who CLAIM to have faith (it never said they had faith, it was a claimed faith)
2. these people who claimed to have faith, had no works whatsoever, they were hearers of the word, but not doers
3. the question, can this CLAIMED faith save them?
ALL Faith is Claimed Faith. Every person who "comes in Christ's Name" claims Faith. Those in Matt. 7, claimed Faith in the Lord. Every person on this forum claims to have Faith.

To try and make the case that there are two different people, those who have Faith and those who "Claim" Faith is a little deceptive as we all claim faith.

This is a convenient way for a person to hide themselves. "well I have faith, but this other guy only "claims" faith. That isn't what James is saying.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

he further shows how they are hearers but not doers, then he goes on to say prove your faith apart from your deed, i will show you my faith by what i do (i am not a hearer only, but i trust what i read, and i do it.

he goes to show you believem you have a good start, even demons believe what profit did belief do for them?
This part agrees with scripture. Belief and faith are not the same. Belief requires no action on our part. But Faith without action is dead. Which means Faith without action is not Faith, but "Belief".

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So can "belief" save you? Without Faith, I don't think so. We are saved by Grace, Through Faith, not through belief alone. Otherwise the demons would be saved also.

history

1. abraham was declaired righteous in gen 15, decades before he offered Issaac, so he was already saved before 1 work
This can't be true given what James just said. "Can faith without Works save you", or can mere belief save you? No. So what does the scriptures say about Abraham?

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Here is the first Command, instruction, given to Abram before anything else was recorded about him. This is the Commandment from God, the Word which became Flesh, to Abram.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Here is the FAITH shown by obedience. Did Abram say "I need to go bury my father first?" or " Your commandment is too burdensome and unjust for me to follow, I will just take the blessings without following your instructions and serve you in my fathers land?

No. He obeyed the instructions from God even though he didn't understand what they meant. His obedience WAS HIS FAITH.

I think the Word which became Flesh gave the same "command" to us all.

Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Follow Him where? "unto a land that I will shew thee".

So Biblically speaking your preaching that Abram was "saved" before 1 work is not accurate according to the Bible.
2. Abrahams faith was proven when he offered his son. But also remember, in between this time abraham commited many sins, and had many victories,
3. Since faith alone is called a claimed faith or a dead faith, there is no such thing as faith alone, abraham proved it, so has James. So has all who ever has been saved by true faith. Since true faith produces work. True faith will never be alone.


Abrahams "Faith" was proven when He picked up his cross and followed God when the call to do so came, at 75 years of age. Mine came at 37.

It is important to note that Abraham did have sin on him. But he received Grace through his Faith. His sin was not atoned for by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" which came 430 years later. But we know the God gave Abraham HIS LAWS, and Abraham obeyed them with all his human heart and soul and might.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

We are, therefore, to have the Faith of Abraham. Shown, not by our own religious "works", lest we should boast, but by adherence, honor and obedience to the instructions of God, which He has before ordained that we should "walk in them", as did Abraham.

Those who have true Faith in the Word which became Flesh are not just "hearers" of God's instructions (Believers) but "doers" of God's instructions.

I believe this is the message from James, and the Gospel in general.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#60
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

There is the Commandment.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

There is the obedience.

Had Abram decided to "go bury his father first", or stay in his country and decide God's instruction was too burdensome or unjust, would he still have been accepted?

What if he did these things and still told everyone he was a servant of God?
Abraham obeyed God by leaving his country, yet it was not until Genesis 15:5 when God brought Abraham outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." In verse 6, we read that Abraham believed in the Lord (BELIEVED GOD - Romans 4:3) and it (faith, not works) was credited to him for righteousness. If Abraham would have stayed in his country and refused to believe God about his descendants being as numerous as the stars in heaven, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

Abram's obedience "WAS HIS FAITH". He did this before God changed his name, before God's commandment to offer his son.
FAITH is believing and obedience is works. This is the same error that Roman Catholics make. I was in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith and here is what he had to say below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is absolutely FALSE and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Then you have others who also error by defining faith as obedience/works and pervert the gospel, such as SDA's who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" as demonstrated below:

Quote Originally Posted by LoveGodForever
What is the other Gospel?

It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
You are no different with your salvation by faith + obeying commandments/works theology.

Why people go to such extreme to preach Abraham's faith was "apart" from obedience is truly fascinating. His sins were forgiven, apart from the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" which came 430 years later, but he believed in God enough to do as God instructed and this is called "The faith of Abraham".
Why people go to such extreme to preach that faith "is" obedience/works is not fascinating, but erroneous. Abraham may have believed in God enough to do as God instructed, but Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:5-6 many years BEFORE he set out to perform the WORK of sacrificing Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

What if after Abraham left his country he would have refused to believe in the Lord/believe God when God told him that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in heaven? Would his faith still have been accounted to him for righteousness? NO. But that was not the case because Abraham's faith in God was authentic. You, just like other works-salvationists, make the same error of taking faith and obedience/works, wrapping it all up in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package, making no distinction between faith and obedience/works, which results in salvation by faith PLUS WORKS. This is commonly taught is every other false movement of Christendom. You need to learn the difference between faith and works of obedience which are produced "out of" faith. Faith is faith and works are works. To define faith "as" works and teach salvation by faith "plus works" is to pervert the gospel.