Faith is our righteousness - Christ is our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins

[sharkwhales]

just going to respond on a few points.

The question then becomes morality, of what value is it and how are we righteous or in fellowship with God in our walk?

The value of doing the right thing is its immediate benefits to our life, especially our ability to experience everything God has for us right now rather than waiting until heaven. Not only that but there is a greater reward for us in eternity if we start cooperating with God now, because God put us here for a reason.

It appears our behaviour is not deemed as righteousness or acceptable, but our faith in Christ.
We are in the process of sanctification, changing from the inheritence of sinful behaviour, a distorted body and often natural impulses, into a child of God. Our failures are very real, but the rope that holds us tight is the faith we hold on to.

I would say it's more than a rope, it is an exploration of the strength and grace of god to make perfection in our weakness, as well as the extent of God's love and mercy and our need for it, which helps us to exercise the same toward others. Some times I think it holds onto us more than we hold onto it.

Now Calvanism resolves this issue with saying you are saved through accepting Christ which means from then on all your future sins are forgiven, you have the righteousness of Christ and so are perfect forever in Gods eyes. Even if you loose faith you are still saved. So the focus is on this declaration of faith and nothing more.

Paul would say rather keeping faith is what matters above all.

Going from your phrasing of these positions, I think Paul is right that the faith must be kept, but that it is not all up to us to keep it, but it is upheld through our relationship with God.

And I think the Calvinist position is correct that God's grace and mercy is that rich, that it handles every possibility for the sake of the willing heart; however for us to experience that richness, our hearts will have to grow in openness and willingness toward God.

If one accepts Jesus's righteousness is given as a gift to us, then it does not matter what we do. If you hold that once you have faith you are counted as perfect before God, then you can enter heaven with no change.

Not really, because the faith causes a change, even if it's not easily seen. It's true some people may not bear much fruit after initially accepting Christ, and in heaven they may not have as much to show for it as someone who bore more fruit. They will be around the most incredible individuals to have existed (the trinity) and wish they had more to offer them from the testimony of their lives. But they will still be there, and we should all be glad God is merciful enough to wipe the slate clean like that.

Jesus believed in changed behaviour because of choice.

Now if Jesus is into this I am into this because I follow Jesus. Jesus did not say I will change you being so will just do these things automatically by some mystical intervention. He said because you love me, you will do these things and I will love you too.

I believe Jesus' position is deeper than that.

Behavior works together with identity and perspective. And relationship empowers them all, and is in turn strengthened by them. To love someone is to become so close and intertwined that you share an identity or a status with them. For instance Jesus considers us family. From this perspective of us, Jesus pours out the love of the Father and unites us with them. This revolutionizes our identity so that we can return love. As that love flows back and forth between us we are moved to act on it and express it by doing things that are wise and right for the relationship. This means cooperating with God's lordship and kingdom purposes so that we can rest to the fullest extent in the friendship and love. What is built up in us by this shared experience, holds the power to change our lives. Our hearts become reservoirs for the power of that love between us. I believe that is where holiness comes from.

So yes, choices are involved, our choices, God's choices, but I think there's more than that.

 

[PeterJens]

On what planet?

So taking Jesus at his word, believing Jesus gave us eternal life through faith is now no longer believed on planet earth.
Now my experience of the Christian I know this is what they believe. Most do not have a view of orgininal sin or how they are justified. They simply try and walk each day following Jesus. They repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness and confess their sins to the Lord. Some are desiring to know more and walk in the Spirit. In the charismatic churches most appear to desire a good praise session and listen to the next sermon.

The problem is most do not have an in depth knowledge of faith or belief, and take things at face value.

It has been eye opening how so much of the theology has been forgotten. Take the idea sex is part of original sin.
Everyone responded to this question, saying they believed sex was a gift of God. Yet it is part of the basis of original sin and used to justify the idea that noone could know righteousness.

As an example, this does not match up with the general acceptance of inability of walking in righteousness.
Now what I actually believe is less important that talking through issues, because a lot of the ideas are new to me, and probably to many others.

Why I came to christ is because of His overwhelming love through the cross. It was this demonstration of love and victory over sin which is our example and statement of love in our hearts. Everything for me is tainted or biased because of this.

What I know is your theology will always reflect your spiritual experiences, but that is the world in which we live. So I will be called demon possessed because what I am expressing is heresy to others. But unless I deny what I am and what the Lord has done in me, I cannot share anything else. For some this meant I am evil. I find that strange as my fellowship over 40 years is the exact opposite. But then there are a millions of catholics who would not agree with me, so it is no surprise.

But I have got to laugh when people try and isolate what I am saying. Jesus was called a blasphemer. All the deciples were killed by people who thought they were doing the right thing. So I know the territory I am in, and who you guys are.

 

[psalm6819]

Sorry maybe you are not calvanist. You obviously do not like the concept of ability, free will. You do not like the idea people are born with love in their hearts, or that the key to the gospel is love shown through the cross which transforms the believer to repent, and walk in righteousness.

I got to say what I believe is based on my experience and discussion with many others over time. What I am happy with is when people can be clear why they believe certain things and why. I used to think revival would come, but now I doubt it severly, because people no longer agree what faith actually is, and conviction of sin on a mass scale is probably now no longer a thing people can about. In this community here sin is not the issue, miracles or command authority seems more something they want to concentrate on, while the church is shrinking, because emotional reality and love are missing in the experience and expression of those who remain.

But then I am the heretic, or the one with the religious spirit, or the unrepentant legalist or whatever adjective of rejection you care to come up with. It feels like Jesus coming to his own people and finding they do not like the light about sin and reality, and would rather walk in their compromises and theology.

Really??????????? You have the audacity to compare yourself to Jesus???

Maybe you shuld do a study on pride...........

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do not know what you are talking about. Unless you try and work through different ideas and theology, how do you think you grow in understanding.

I cannot predict where I will end up because it is where the theology and scripture show you.
For instance I now appreciate faith is reconnded as our righteousness, rather than Christs righteousness by being imputed.
The concept of christs righteousness works for justification but not sanctification. Unless you want to go down the universalist route and everyone is saved by default, faith or no faith, no matter the behaviour or background.

If you see your faith as being your righteousness, I see little difference between that and doing works of law.

 

[psalm6819]

So taking Jesus at his word, believing Jesus gave us eternal life through faith is now no longer believed on planet earth.
Now my experience of the Christian I know this is what they believe. Most do not have a view of orgininal sin or how they are justified. They simply try and walk each day following Jesus. They repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness and confess their sins to the Lord. Some are desiring to know more and walk in the Spirit. In the charismatic churches most appear to desire a good praise session and listen to the next sermon.

The problem is most do not have an in depth knowledge of faith or belief, and take things at face value.

It has been eye opening how so much of the theology has been forgotten. Take the idea sex is part of original sin.
Everyone responded to this question, saying they believed sex was a gift of God. Yet it is part of the basis of original sin and used to justify the idea that noone could know righteousness.

As an example, this does not match up with the general acceptance of inability of walking in righteousness.
Now what I actually believe is less important that talking through issues, because a lot of the ideas are new to me, and probably to many others.

Why I came to christ is because of His overwhelming love through the cross. It was this demonstration of love and victory over sin which is our example and statement of love in our hearts. Everything for me is tainted or biased because of this.

What I know is your theology will always reflect your spiritual experiences, but that is the world in which we live. So I will be called demon possessed because what I am expressing is heresy to others. But unless I deny what I am and what the Lord has done in me, I cannot share anything else. For some this meant I am evil. I find that strange as my fellowship over 40 years is the exact opposite. But then there are a millions of catholics who would not agree with me, so it is no surprise.

But I have got to laugh when people try and isolate what I am saying. Jesus was called a blasphemer. All the deciples were killed by people who thought they were doing the right thing. So I know the territory I am in, and who you guys are.

yup, I'm the one saying I see alot of pride here and you sound like a guy with a messiah complex

 

[BenFTW]

If you see your faith as being your righteousness, I see little difference between that and doing works of law.

It doesn't even make sense for someone to declare their faith as their righteousness. Its like a person claiming their belief that a glass of water will quench their thirst, quenches their thirst. No, the water quenches their thirst, and likewise, Christ meets the righteous demand of the law on our behalf (and imputed His righteousness to us).

 

[BenFTW]

It doesn't even make sense for someone to declare their faith as their righteousness. Its like a person claiming their belief that a glass of water will quench their thirst, quenches their thirst. No, the water quenches their thirst, and likewise, Christ meets the righteous demand of the law on our behalf (and imputed His righteousness to us).

Again, Jesus imputes His righteousness to us and that is obtained, if you will, through faith. So it is by grace through faith that we are justified before God. VVhat PeterJens is putting forth is that it is his faith itself that is his righteousness. This is incorrect, as many religions have faith in something and yet still need Jesus.

No one is justified outside of faith, for all fall short of God's glory. No man meets the perfect standard. The idea that faith is our very righteousness I can't even contemplate. It doesn't make sense logically, nor does it agree with God's word. Our righteousness is of faith, and that faith is in Christ who imputes His righteousness to us, simply.

 

[PeterJens]

Really??????????? You have the audacity to compare yourself to Jesus???

Maybe you shuld do a study on pride...........

Jesus says I am no better than him, and if he was rejected so will anyone else who comes sharing the same things he shares.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 5:11-12

I am sorry that I am quoting Jesus, it is obviously an insult to you to quote scripture. But that is what I am called to do.
And it does not take pride to quote scripture. Your attempt at a put down does nothing to me, because it is so miss-placed.

 

[John146]

I don't want to make a Bible version issue here, but having the words of the KJV solves the issue. There's a big difference between faith in Christ like most modern versions read, and the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Philippians 3:29, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

My faith is what I do for Christ once I'm saved. Christ's faith was on display at the cross, and it's by Christ's faith I'm justified.

It doesn't even make sense for someone to declare their faith as their righteousness. Its like a person claiming their belief that a glass of water will quench their thirst, quenches their thirst. No, the water quenches their thirst, and likewise, Christ meets the righteous demand of the law on our behalf (and imputed His righteousness to us).

 

[PeterJens]

If you see your faith as being your righteousness, I see little difference between that and doing works of law.

According to Paul our faith is reconned as righteousness. That is just the theology he is expressing.
All I am doing is extending this and saying this fills the same gap as imputed righteousness of Jesus.

I think this also helps express how young christians can still be in conflict over sinful behaviour and attitudes, and be working through the issues. If this broke fellowship with the Lord, then how could they get victory or become overcomers unless there was a sense of justification of this battle. Some talk about these issues as if sin is something simple or not a longer term life change that can take years. So a sense of grace that covers the situation is obviously part of sanctification, but just assuming it is 100% sorted forever from day one is just not real or what we experience.

Equally faith empowers our ability and is our focus to keep us on track. If we go off track then we loose the power of victory.

 

[PeterJens]

It doesn't even make sense for someone to declare their faith as their righteousness. Its like a person claiming their belief that a glass of water will quench their thirst, quenches their thirst. No, the water quenches their thirst, and likewise, Christ meets the righteous demand of the law on our behalf (and imputed His righteousness to us).

Paul says our faith is reconned as righteousness.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Rom 1:17

We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:9

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:30

By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings.
Heb 11:4

So if this applies to Abraham it also applies to us as Paul says.

 

[PeterJens]

[/B]
yup, I'm the one saying I see alot of pride here and you sound like a guy with a messiah complex

I am not saving anyone from anything. I am searching to understand how people relate to Jesus and walk with Him.
I am not sure how that makes me have a messiah complex or it is just being a faithful follower.

Pride. I remember the idea of being assertive to others is arrogance. Was Jesus proud to believe he was the Son of God or just the truth. Equally to be a simple follower, is a privilege but admiting the truth is not pride but just the truth.

 

[PeterJens]

It is interesting that though Paul puts faith as reconned as righteousness central to his theology, many have not included it in their theology. Now if we are following Pauls teaching we either have to show how this view fits in to our view before God or our current theology is not biblical.

Once you find a major failure, it means historically though this concept has been their it has just been continually ignored.
Why is that?

 

[psalm6819]

reconned is what? conned repeatedly??? your words not mine

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unfortunately to my mind he is addressing very little. I am getting convinced you guys are very set in one outlook no matter what. Grace7x77 described on de-brain washing himself or looking at language a different way than he had grown up with in church. The problem is this is just creating a different outlook, no better than the one before but different. Unless you can hold all the variations and know which one you approve of, you are just brain washing yourself.

I see the power of the gospel as showing the heart of man and enabling cleansing through His work on the cross. It seems though for many this is not the work of the cross, and cleansing is not on their agenda because we are lost in sin until judgement day. The word changes from sin to walking in the flesh, but the ideas are the same.

There is no power in your gospel.

Your gospel can fail

Gods gospel will never fail.

Youhave also been exposed. people see me answer all of your words. And you pick and chose what to answer..

 

[psalm6819]

I am not saving anyone from anything. I am searching to understand how people relate to Jesus and walk with Him.
I am not sure how that makes me have a messiah complex or it is just being a faithful follower.

Pride. I remember the idea of being assertive to others is arrogance. Was Jesus proud to believe he was the Son of God or just the truth. Equally to be a simple follower, is a privilege but admiting the truth is not pride but just the truth.

Wrong. Pride is thinking more highly of onesself than another.

"I'm the one who understands.. only me..they are unenlightened

someday....... they will be like me...... and know the truth..I'm so humble......."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is interesting that though Paul puts faith as reconned as righteousness central to his theology, many have not included it in their theology. Now if we are following Pauls teaching we either have to show how this view fits in to our view before God or our current theology is not biblical.

Once you find a major failure, it means historically though this concept has been their it has just been continually ignored.
Why is that?

Faith isn't righteousness. Our faith is credited as righteousness, but we aren't perfectly righteous. Perfect righteousness has to come from somewhere besides ourselves.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree that it is in the genitive case for all the references you put up ( Philippians 2:9 - not 2:29 ) which is the case of possession for sure. Faith "in" Christ can mean to believe in what Christ has done which includes His faith to bring righteousness to us.

We can have faith in what He has done with His faith to bring about righteousness to us by His death and resurrection and ascension to the Father. He is our Advocate..Jesus the righteous.

Ultimately I like the "of" Christ better because it is His faith that brought about our great salvation and righteousness but I can also see that having faith "in" Christ includes believing in "His" faith. But there is definitely a good distinction here and we need to have a good understanding of "His faith" that brought about our salvation first so that our faith "in" Him is based on His finished work.

There are some debates about whether it can be "in" as well as "of" in places where the genitive is used because in other places the same greek grammatical setup occurs but "in" is put in even by the KJV..

Here is an example below..do we have faith "in" or "of" His name?


Acts 3:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And his name through faith inhis name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Another note for anyone interested is this quote I found..

Dr Michael Eaton’s book, “No Condemnation: a Theology of Assurance of Salvation”. The chapter is specifically entitled “The Faith of Christ” and deals with this issue directly. I found the chapter (and the entire book) incredibly helpful and liberating.

He ends off the chapter with these words: “Few things take us totally out of ourselves, out of our self-concern, out of every doubt and fear, as does the knowledge that the faith of Jesus was and is at work on our behalf.

If Paul says “I live by the faith of Christ” should Christians today not say the same?

I disagree with the statement " My faith is what I do for Christ once I'm saved"...it is always by Christ's faith we live by. He is living in us now..

Gal 2:20 says that Paul lives by the faith of Christ , so it is by the faith of Christ from start to finish. I don't see any distinction here.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I don't want to make a Bible version issue here, but having the words of the KJV solves the issue. There's a big difference between faith in Christ like most modern versions read, and the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Philippians 3:29, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

My faith is what I do for Christ once I'm saved. Christ's faith was on display at the cross, and it's by Christ's faith I'm justified.

 

[roaringkitten]

I agree that it is in the genitive case for all the references you put up ( Philippians 2:9 - not 2:29 ) which is the case of possession for sure. Faith "in" Christ can mean to believe in what Christ has done which includes His faith to bring righteousness to us.

We can have faith in what He has done with His faith to bring about righteousness to us by His death and resurrection and ascension to the Father. He is our Advocate..Jesus the righteous.

Ultimately I like the "of" Christ better because it is His faith that brought about our great salvation and righteousness but I can also see that having faith "in" Christ includes believing in "His" faith. But there is definitely a good distinction here and we need to have a good understanding of "His faith" that brought about our salvation first so that our faith "in" Him is based on His finished work.

There are some debates about whether it can be "in" as well as "of" in places where the genitive is used because in other places the same greek grammatical setup occurs but "in" is put in even by the KJV..

Here is an example below..do we have faith "in" or "of" His name?


Acts 3:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And his name through faith inhis name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Another note for anyone interested is this quote I found..

Dr Michael Eaton’s book, “No Condemnation: a Theology of Assurance of Salvation”. The chapter is specifically entitled “The Faith of Christ” and deals with this issue directly. I found the chapter (and the entire book) incredibly helpful and liberating.

He ends off the chapter with these words: “Few things take us totally out of ourselves, out of our self-concern, out of every doubt and fear, as does the knowledge that the faith of Jesus was and is at work on our behalf.

If Paul says “I live by the faith of Christ” should Christians today not say the same?

I disagree with the statement " My faith is what I do for Christ once I'm saved"...it is always by Christ's faith we live by. He is living in us now..

Gal 2:20 says that Paul lives by the faith of Christ , so it is by the faith of Christ from start to finish. I don't see any distinction here.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I agree, "of Christ" more strongly points us to this faith. The author and finisher of our faith is Christ(Heb 12:2), so it is 100% His faith! It is the work of God to believe(John 6:29) It is important to note this, as it gives us assurance of eternal life(1 John 5:13). When part of Eph 2:8-9 says "not of yourselves" you can't boast that "your faith" saved you, but that it was the "faith of Christ".

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't want to make a Bible version issue here, but having the words of the KJV solves the issue. There's a big difference between faith in Christ like most modern versions read, and the faith of Christ.

Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Philippians 3:29, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

My faith is what I do for Christ once I'm saved. Christ's faith was on display at the cross, and it's by Christ's faith I'm justified.

I believe this is right. Romans 1:17 says the righteousness of GOD is revealed from faith to faith (KJV).

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17​

The Greek actually says out of faith into faith - εκ (out of) πίστεως (faith) εις (into) πίστιν (faith). I interpret this as meaning that the righteousness of GOD is revealed as we believe out of our faith into Christ's faith.