Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[NayborBear]

I have not seen you mention one name dude

You have not proven anything, You want to talk about what works is (or your interpretation) . I want NAMES of people who have DONE what you claimed they did!!

Can you name them, and give examples where they have claimed ALL people who have GREAT faith and MANY works believe in a works based salvation? or keep beating around the bush?

Like I stated to ya before. How's it feel to want?
You want names? Spirit of anti-christ!
I keep on "hammering" the spirit of anti-christ, and you are seeking names of those who subscribe to its teachings.
As far as "trusting" that which I say? I don't really care if you trust what I say, or not!
Ephesians 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Revelation 2
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

I can "claim" that last part in bold, EG! Can you?

So, if you be looking for individual members of this forum? Yer NOT! I say again? NOT going to get them! At least, not from me!



Apparently, you know them however. Elstwise you would not have appointed yourself as "spokesmen!"

However? Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I stated to ya before. How's it feel to want?
You want names? Spirit of anti-christ!
I keep on "hammering" the spirit of anti-christ, and you are seeking names of those who subscribe to its teachings.
As far as "trusting" that which I say? I don't really care if you trust what I say, or not!
Ephesians 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Revelation 2
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

I can "claim" that last part in bold, EG! Can you?

So, if you be looking for individual members of this forum? Yer NOT! I say again? NOT going to get them! At least, not from me!



Apparently, you know them however. Elstwise you would not have appointed yourself as "spokesmen!"

However? Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Thats what I thought

1. You made an accusation (ALL people who say ALL who have great faith and works TEACH WORKS salvation)
2. You were asked to prove that accusation (who says these things?)
3. As usual, You refuse to give examples or show proof and then try to blame shift (because everyone here knows YOU CAN:T NAME NAMES because NO ONE SAYS THOSE THINGS)

By the way, It is not me who wants, It is you who wants, Because you just DESTROYED Your whole argument, Because you claimed that PEOPLE do this. But CAN NOT NAME ONE PERSON

Ps. Your wrong in your assumption

People like me DO NOT believe those who HAVE GREAT FAITH and GREAT WORKS are working for salvation. Thats a LIE, and you just proved (I gave you the opportunity to prove your statement and you failed) that this is correct. If we felt that way, we would JUDGE ourselves as believing in a works based gospel

What we SAY, is that those who claim that SALVATION IS EARNED or MAINTAINED by those works teach a works based gospel.

People like you and JaumeJ and others who continue to teach the LIE that we believe YOU teach a works based gospel SOLELY on the fact you CLAIM to have GREAT FAITH AND WORKS. Will continue to be proven wrong every time, because we will continue to demand you PROVE your statement by showing us WHO teaches what you CLAIM we teach.

And you, like him (them) continue to do the same thing, blame shift. And refuse to prove it

Well you just discredited yourself. I hope your happy with yourself!!

 

[Lanolin]

So how much growth? How much confession? How much 'doing good'? How much 'knowing'?

It seems you are asking for something like SMART goals, they have to be specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timebound.

Right?


Ok well over your born again lifetime, after youve repented, believed and baptised, if you exhibit the 9 fruits of the holy spirit and show at least one spirtual gift and tell at least three other people about Jesus, and testify at least one thing Jesus has done for you at His throne when you see Him.

Its not like 1001 things to do before you die, but if you want to break it down we could all come up with lists of what God has specifically told us to do, but they may be different for each person.

 

[crossnote]

It seems you are asking for something like SMART goals, they have to be specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timebound.

Right?

No. Wrong. 'FollowHisSteps' laid out the goals in his post. I was just asking 'how much?' Of course it can't be measured.

Ok well over your born again lifetime, after youve repented, believed and baptised, if you exhibit the 9 fruits of the holy spirit and show at least one spirtual gift and tell at least three other people about Jesus, and testify at least one thing Jesus has done for you at His throne when you see Him.

Its not like 1001 things to do before you die, but if you want to break it down we could all come up with lists of what God has specifically told us to do, but they may be different for each person.

My point is it can't be measured, unless you can measure God's grace.
Whenever someone says something like 'we need more faith in order to accomplish such and such', my first reaction is 'how much more'?
...whether it is referring to a closer walk, fruitfulness or whatever .

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1Co 15:10)

 

[Lanolin]

No. Wrong. 'FollowHisSteps' laid out the goals in his post. I was just asking 'how much?' Of course it can't be measured.


My point is it can't be measured, unless you can measure God's grace.
Whenever someone says something like 'we need more faith in order to accomplish such and such', my first reaction is 'how much more'?
...whether it is referring to a closer walk, fruitfulness or whatever .

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1Co 15:10)

Ok, but then why ask a question you know cant be answered? How long is. Apiece of string?

Or are you just stirring cos you just cant think of any other topic to talk about? ;-)

 

[Lanolin]

I would just answer...more than you had before.

 

[crossnote]

Ok, but then why ask a question you know cant be answered? How long is. Apiece of string?

Or are you just stirring cos you just cant think of any other topic to talk about? ;-)

I believe I covered this in post #59...

At the time, I noticed there were three or four posts at the top of the page on 'faith/works', so more out of being facetious than anything else, I thought 'how much faith? how much works?' since the topic seems so omnipresent on forums. If not by topic, then most biblical posts devolve into that issue...interesting.

 

[Macabeus]

I am sick of your silly games.

Its up to you man. As I said, I am not going to discuss works or anythign else with you. I want you to PROVE you accusation!

Why should he? If there is a written or unwritten rule that says accusations should be backed up if requested, IT IS NOT REALLY FOLLOWED HERE,...

I'm still waiting for a response to post 96,766. You can PM me it if you like since I promised not to post it there. Then I will come back and let Naybor Bear know you practice what you demand of others. Otherwise, you don't deserve a response.

Here is a list of post numbers where people accused me of saying something or doing something or teaching something, and I asked for a post number as proof, (just one) and I never got ANYTHING from any of them. And you are one of the guilty ones. So why should anyone care about proof. People can claim anything they want and not have to back it up. Want evidence. Look at the post numbers below. See if I ever got any post numbers verifying accusations.

Enjoy this list, Naybor Bear and others.

Post 97,516

Post 97,392

Post 97,371

Post 97,365

Post 97,180

Post 96,841

Post 96,835

Post 96,830

Post 96,825

post 96,815

Post 96,812

Post 96,784

Post 96,766- Where I asked you for post numbers proving THREE false accusations from one post.

Quite an overwhelming list.

 

[Macabeus]

The practice of confirming accusations with post numbers when challenged? I've only seen one person do it. ME.

This is a list where I was accused of something and asked for a post number to back it up and got nothing.

Includes violations of E.G's principle by GB9, DControversial, and GUESS WHAT? Eternally Grateful himself. This is just the tip of the ice berg.

There should not be one standard for the DC gang and another for everyone else.

When am I going to get post numbers for proof of the accusations referred to in the posts below? Here is a list of numbers.

All from "all of Grace" thread

Post 97,516

Post 97,392

Post 97,371

Post 97,365

Post 97,180

Post 96,841

Post 96,835

Post 96,830

Post 96,825

post 96,815

Post 96,812

Post 96,784

Post 96,766- Where I asked you for post numbers proving THREE false accusations from one post.

 

[Macabeus]

Again, the list of posts in number 88 and 89 are from the "not of works" thread. EG never got uptight that this was the M.O over there, so why should he expect anything different here. There should not be two seperate sets of standards.

 

[Blik]

If we give all, every bit of our sin including the sin that we are not aware of but
God knows of, if we give every bit to Christ for forgiveness, then it is not now much but all, every bit. Then we are to die to sin, we are clean and our sin is wiped away, gone. We repented. We live on in Christ, a righteous man. So everything we are and what we do is righteous. It is not measured by how much, because it is all.

Now, we are human. We have put scripture in our minds and turn our will over to Christ so it is our intention and our plan to be perfect, but we aren't. We are dependent on the long suffering of God, on the grace of God and on how Christ paid for our sin when we give it up to Christ.

This is how God acts for us, this is how we are, this is our life now through the Lord, and it has nothing to do with measurements but it is a matter of accepting facts and acting on them.

This is all scripture based, lots of scripture passages. It is in everyone's bibles.

 

[crossnote]

...if we give every bit to Christ for forgiveness, then it is not now much but all, every bit.

Is that what is required for forgiveness?

 

[piroma]

First of all it exist faith of yours and faith of God

so works of your faith is not works of God's faith

 

[Lanolin]

Well I did answer it talking About how faith grows.

How do we know anything grows...well the simple answer is that its just more than you had before.

i cant say what would be the spiritual growth rate for every single individual on earth, but to measure it would be ok look a year ago, and look to this year. Whats changed? How far along on your walk are you or are you still stuck where you were from last year?

What kind of fruits can you see? Sometimes it takes a long time for fruits to form, but in the meantime you are still growing.

Perhaps God is keeping track if hes got every good work we do in our book of life by our names. So on april13 crossnote did this good work, he was kind to his fellow posters on christian chat. He encouraged someone with scripture. Or Crossnote gave a cup of water to a stranger who was really thirsty. He didnt tell them to get lost! Or crossnote shared his lunch with someone who was hungry and forgot theirs. Little things like that, add up to big things, and greater works.

 

[Macabeus]

Thats what I thought

1. You made an accusation (ALL people who say ALL who have great faith and works TEACH WORKS salvation)
2. You were asked to prove that accusation (who says these things?)
3. As usual, You refuse to give examples or show proof and then try to blame shift (because everyone here knows YOU CAN:T NAME NAMES because NO ONE SAYS THOSE THINGS)

You mean the same things you and others did to me numerous times? See posts 88-90

Now the shoes on the other foot, and you're crying

You are reaping what you sowed

 

[Macabeus]

Maybe saving faith isn't an amount but an affirmation of what Christ has done to atone for our sin, ..enough of an affirmation to be born again?

Ephesians 2:8- For by Grace you are saved, through faith, it is not of yourselves.

Both faith and salvation are gifts of God.

Ephesians 2:9- Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works have nothing to do with justification, regeneration, adoption, etc. These are all unmerited gifts of God

Ephesians 2:10- For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus...

Regeneration makes us new creatures. We are transformed from the inside out

Unto Good works

We are not saved by works, but we are saved UNTO good works, intended to bring glory to God.

which God has prepared for us beforehand...

quote from Myer's New Testament commentary. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/2-10.htm

For, if the converted man is God’s creature, then the moral activity of life, in which the specific nature of the new creation is to manifest itself, and without which he would not be God’s work and creation, must likewise proceed from God; consequently, when the moral creative act (the regeneration) is accomplished, must already in God’s counsel and will be in such wise prepared and held ready for communication, that it has to receive the new creature from its Creator...Thus these good works following regeneration are as it were outflowings from a divine treasure beforehand placed in readiness, from which the regenerate man has received them, when he does them and walks in them.

 

[crossnote]

Ephesians 2:8- For by Grace you are saved, through faith, it is not of yourselves.

Both faith and salvation are gifts of God.

Ephesians 2:9- Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works have nothing to do with justification, regeneration, adoption, etc. These are all unmerited gifts of God

Ephesians 2:10- For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus...

Regeneration makes us new creatures. We are transformed from the inside out

Unto Good works

We are not saved by works, but we are saved UNTO good works, intended to bring glory to God.

which God has prepared for us beforehand...

quote from Myer's New Testament commentary. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/2-10.htm

For, if the converted man is God’s creature, then the moral activity of life, in which the specific nature of the new creation is to manifest itself, and without which he would not be God’s work and creation, must likewise proceed from God; consequently, when the moral creative act (the regeneration) is accomplished, must already in God’s counsel and will be in such wise prepared and held ready for communication, that it has to receive the new creature from its Creator...Thus these good works following regeneration are as it were outflowings from a divine treasure beforehand placed in readiness, from which the regenerate man has received them, when he does them and walks in them.

I believe you are preaching to the choir.

 

[Macabeus]

I believe you are preaching to the choir.

Who said I wasnt?

 

[Macabeus]

Thats what I thought

1. You made an accusation (ALL people who say ALL who have great faith and works TEACH WORKS salvation)
2. You were asked to prove that accusation (who says these things?)
3. As usual, You refuse to give examples or show proof and then try to blame shift (because everyone here knows YOU CAN:T NAME NAMES because NO ONE SAYS THOSE THINGS)

By the way, It is not me who wants, It is you who wants, Because you just DESTROYED Your whole argument, Because you claimed that PEOPLE do this. But CAN NOT NAME ONE PERSON

Ps. Your wrong in your assumption

People like me DO NOT believe those who HAVE GREAT FAITH and GREAT WORKS are working for salvation. Thats a LIE, and you just proved (I gave you the opportunity to prove your statement and you failed) that this is correct. If we felt that way, we would JUDGE ourselves as believing in a works based gospel

What we SAY, is that those who claim that SALVATION IS EARNED or MAINTAINED by those works teach a works based gospel.

People like you and JaumeJ and others who continue to teach the LIE that we believe YOU teach a works based gospel SOLELY on the fact you CLAIM to have GREAT FAITH AND WORKS. Will continue to be proven wrong every time, because we will continue to demand you PROVE your statement by showing us WHO teaches what you CLAIM we teach.

And you, like him (them) continue to do the same thing, blame shift. And refuse to prove it

Well you just discredited yourself. I hope your happy with yourself!!

NOTHING compared to this exchange from "not of works" thread.

Post 79036-Argueless- Are Ananias and Saphira saved or unsaved? Does scriptures say that no one will wander or turn away from the FAITH? If anyone wander or turn away from the FAITH which you CLAIM can ALONE save and DENY God, would that person still be saved?

Post 79,037-DC reply- What Jesus do you follow....not the one of the bible...Because the one of the bible starts, finishes and completes the work of faith in those that believe and then if they do not abide faithful he remains faithful to his promise to start, finish and complete the work....

Post 97,292- Argueless Go and know for yourself what dcon's stance is re: LYING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT...

97,293 Dcon-Post 97,293- I have reported this post for accusing me of LYING to the Holy SPIRIT......which I have NOT done...

Post 97,293 is a falsehood. Argueless NEVER said DC lied to the Holy Spirit. He was referring to DC's stance on the matter. And this was explaned several times. Did DC and the others who accused Argueless apologize for this misrepresentation? I hope so.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

"Matthew 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

When considering whether scripture teaches eternal security or conditional salvation, we find the answer in Jesus' words above. So, why does this war between viewpoints continue? I believe the reason is because Jesus' explanation of salvation in the believer partially fits both paradigms of thought.

There is only one person who is truly Christian at the end of this parable. It is the person who bears fruit unto God. So, the person who bears fruit unto the end is the one who is eternally secure (and technically the only real Christian). All the others, either never were or no longer are Christian. Now, at this point, it can become an argument over terminology. Was the person who had some faith at first and fell away, really a Christian? Was the person who let the cares of this life and the love of money to draw him away from God, really a Christian? So, the point is, once you understand this parable correctly, there really is no more argument over "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Conditional Salvation". As Christ makes it clear, how the gospel works in a persons life. And it becomes simply a word game after this.. Who really is the Christian in the parable? How do we define a "Christian". Is a Christian defined by the one who remains unto the end? Or is a Christian defined by those who say they have faith in Christ? If the first definition, we could say "Once Saved Always Saved". If the second definition, we could say "Conditional Salvation".

One thing should be very obvious, though. A person not living for Christ is not a Christian. So, those who think you can say a prayer one time in the past and then somehow live like the Devil later on in your life, you are just fooling yourself.

source: http://www.godrules.net/articles/eternalsecurity.htm