Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

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Guojing

Active member
Jan 12, 2019
711
151
43
Right it is His work baptizing us into Christ upon faith. So 'believe and works will follow (issuing from the new birth). ..is not circular.
So long as they don't add that point "But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe," I will agree with you.
 
Apr 11, 2019
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The problem is after you accept Christ by faith, they now tell you, you need to be doing this or that, to show that your faith is not dead faith. If it’s dead faith, it can’t save you.

That is where the circular argument comes in 🤗
It’s not “dead faith” but rather “dead works”.

Hebrews 9:14 KJV
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Folks think that they can please God after the flesh, without faith.

Romans 8:8 KJV
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
Some try to call believing a work.
I am one of those "some", you are referring to.
Does it not take effort (work/s), in the "clearing your mind from doubt?" I'll give ya, that some people require less "effort"(work/s) in believing, then others. But, to say that NO effort(work/s), or efforts(works), are required? Is this not "faith AT WORK?" :unsure:
Christ said to "enter in the strait gate!" One doesn't simply fall INTO the strait gate. Right?
One enters into the strait gate. Does this not require effort (work/s)?

This seems to be a problem, especially for (how can I say?) "long-in-the-tooth" believers :))), in which something that comes "so naturally", (sometimes? TOO naturally :cry:) for them, now, was at one time, not very natural to them at all!
Why?
Because, usually, but, not always, this comes from a "place" within oneself, where a conviction has occurred. And? This HURTS! Painful! One may even refer to this as "the location where circumcision OF THE HEART/SOUL/MIND/SPIRIT/FLESH took place!" Where the very "act itself" (work/s), in crying out TO the Lord, or Abba Father! Would not "this" be considered (a) work?

Revelation 2
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,518
506
113
The practice of confirming accusations with post numbers when challenged? I've only seen one person do it. ME.

This is a list where I was accused of something and asked for a post number to back it up and got nothing.

Includes violations of E.G's principle by GB9, DControversial, and GUESS WHAT? Eternally Grateful himself. This is just the tip of the ice berg.

There should not be one standard for the DC gang and another for everyone else.

When am I going to get post numbers for proof of the accusations referred to in the posts below? Here is a list of numbers.

All from "all of Grace" thread

Post 97,516

Post 97,392

Post 97,371

Post 97,365

Post 97,180

Post 96,841

Post 96,835

Post 96,830

Post 96,825

post 96,815

Post 96,812

Post 96,784

Post 96,766- Where I asked you for post numbers proving THREE false accusations from one post.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
1,848
460
83
I know, the Forum is glutted with these Faith/Works threads.

But I'm interested in those that say 'by faith'...how much faith?

And those that say 'by works'...how much works?
Faith gets you hired but once you’re on staff you aren’t expected to hang out at the water cooler.

Faith gets you adopted but once you’re in the family you have to help with the chores.

Faith gets you on the team roster but as a member you need to show up to practice and play hard in games.

This is the relationship between faith and works. Usually the bigger question is are those who show up to office and do the work but aren’t on staff get paid (those who demonstrate fruits of the Spirit but don’t accept Christ as Lord)? Or are the ones who stand around watching everyone else work really going to get a cheque on payday? That I would conclude is up to the Man in Charge. It’s His company and His signature on the cheques, so His call. All I know is that I am thankfully employed given my work experience. Whether He promotes me or keeps me in the mail room, His generosity is more than I deserve. I will do what He asks and expects. We weren’t hired to stand around.
 
I tend not to "name name's" of particular posts, or threads. I just keep on "chopping" on that tree of knowledge and good and evil, and let the "chips" fall as they may.

As is fairly evident at times? Some "chips" "protesteth TOO loudly!" Especially, when it is shown them that the "chips" being flung? Are not "wood", in nature! ;)
 
Dec 9, 2011
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I am one of those "some", you are referring to.
Does it not take effort (work/s), in the "clearing your mind from doubt?" I'll give ya, that some people require less "effort"(work/s) in believing, then others. But, to say that NO effort(work/s), or efforts(works), are required? Is this not "faith AT WORK?" :unsure:
Christ said to "enter in the strait gate!" One doesn't simply fall INTO the strait gate. Right?
One enters into the strait gate. Does this not require effort (work/s)?

This seems to be a problem, especially for (how can I say?) "long-in-the-tooth" believers :))), in which something that comes "so naturally", (sometimes? TOO naturally :cry:) for them, now, was at one time, not very natural to them at all!
Why?
Because, usually, but, not always, this comes from a "place" within oneself, where a conviction has occurred. And? This HURTS! Painful! One may even refer to this as "the location where circumcision OF THE HEART/SOUL/MIND/SPIRIT/FLESH took place!" Where the very "act itself" (work/s), in crying out TO the Lord, or Abba Father! Would not "this" be considered (a) work?

Revelation 2
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
work Is work
Believing Is believing
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
26,690
1,056
113
Usually the bigger question is are those who show up to office and do the work but aren’t on staff get paid (those who demonstrate fruits of the Spirit but don’t accept Christ as Lord)?
Our Lord has made it quite clear to this group...
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)
and
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Mat 7:22)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:23)

Or are the ones who stand around watching everyone else work really going to get a cheque on payday? That I would conclude is up to the Man in Charge.
The 'man in charge' is Jesus and He has made it quite clear...

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 6:15)
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: (Heb 12:5)
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (Heb 12:6)

(IOW, He'll see to it His own children aren't gaming the system.)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,389
348
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So you believe it is faith in Jesus, apart from works, that results in salvation, period?

No attempt to sneak in works thru the backdoor? :)
According to you, I sneak in works by the back door, as God does. You call following Jesus works, that is your private definition and your way of thinging, not God's way.
 

blueluna5

Active member
Jul 30, 2018
104
51
28
You need a little faith in a BIG God. It's not dependent on "your faith." It's dependent on God.
 

Guojing

Active member
Jan 12, 2019
711
151
43
According to you, I sneak in works by the back door, as God does. You call following Jesus works, that is your private definition and your way of thinging, not God's way.
U cannot see I was asking you a question? I want to confirm what your belief is, not assuming.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
9,054
683
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Maybe saving faith isn't an amount but an affirmation of what Christ has done to atone for our sin, ..enough of an affirmation to be born again?

Saving faith is the faith of Christ (not of our own self.) But is the work of Christ as a labor of His love..

It, as it is written is that which works in the believer by which they can believe God. Having believed God they are strengthened to do the good pleasure of His will

He is our confidence .If he has begun the good work in us he will finish it .

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,389
348
83
U cannot see I was asking you a question? I want to confirm what your belief is, not assuming.
I'm sorry, I was only answering "by the back door".

God tells us that He doesn't accept our works as a basis for our salvation, way back in Lev. 17 we are told there is no salvation without blood and the NT repeats that often.
 

Guojing

Active member
Jan 12, 2019
711
151
43
I'm sorry, I was only answering "by the back door".

God tells us that He doesn't accept our works as a basis for our salvation, way back in Lev. 17 we are told there is no salvation without blood and the NT repeats that often.
Okay I am glad you have confirmed your stand that salvation is by faith apart from works.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,389
348
83
The next question is whether we can loose our salvation through doing the work for evil? The only scripture I know that addresses that is:

1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co_6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

By these scriptures Paul seems to be right when he tells us that we must give over our will to Christ to live without sin by our will, even though we sometimes act outside of our will. So even though it is not our works that saves, it is Christ, our works can still kill if we don't include Christ in our daily living.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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What do you make of this then:

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
The work of GOD not the work of man.
Don't equating the flesh on the same level with the Spirit.
Instead give GOD the glory of doing the perfect work accepted by a GOD who loves righteousness and giving you grace through faith.

By the mercy of GOD present your body/mind a living sacrifice,not conforming to this world's ways but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.