Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[preacher1611]

Romans 12:3 KJV
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

“The measure of faith” is what it takes! How much faith? It’s simple. Either you believe the scriptures (faith) or you don’t!

Ephesians 4:7 KJV
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

These are scriptural answers! The grace and the faith are a “measure” and ZERO works is what it takes. Works NEVER save from hell but we should have good works as Christians. Good works don’t define us, if we are “in Christ”.

Titus 3:4-9 KJV
[4] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, [5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. [9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[Blik]

Is that what is required for forgiveness?

Yes. We are not righteous in ourselves, it is unattainable for us, but through Christ and the payment for our sins that
Christ did we are righteous. We give over our sill to Christ.

 

[crossnote]

(BliK)...if we give every bit to Christ for forgiveness, then it is not now much but all, every bit.

(Crossnote)Is that what is required for forgiveness?

BLiK...Yes. We are not righteous in ourselves, it is unattainable for us, but through Christ and the payment for our sins that
Christ did we are righteous. We give over our sill to Christ.

So those 'who give every bit of themselves to Christ' will receive forgiveness?

I have two problems with that.
1. It leaves room for boasting of those who gave 'themselves over fully' for forgiveness.
2. It takes away the 'free gift' nature of forgiveness and turns forgiveness into a work ( dependent on 'if I give enough of myself').
There is no peace in that, as we will always wonder 'have I given enough of myself for forgiveness?'.

 

[Blik]

So those 'who give every bit of themselves to Christ' will receive forgiveness?

I have two problems with that.
1. It leaves room for boasting of those who gave 'themselves over fully' for forgiveness.
2. It takes away the 'free gift' nature of forgiveness and turns forgiveness into a work ( dependent on 'if I give enough of myself').
There is no peace in that, as we will always wonder 'have I given enough of myself for forgiveness?'.

We are explained to, we are told, exactly how to give ourselves to Christ and what Christ does for us. Christ pays for our sin. We give our sin to Christ for payment. How could we give them over to Christ without repentance? We can then boast in Christ for what was done for us.

That work idea is a human made one to distort the way of the Lord. They say following Christ is work and we shouldn't work. If they would put on Christ they wouldn't get caught up in these man made ideas. Scripture doesn't tell us "don't work". But it is possible to pull and push facts around to make it come out that way, and they call themselves scholars when they do that.

God's way is simple, to the point, and correct. Christ puts it this way "follow me". Christ didn't call it work, Christ called it freedom.

 

[Blik]

There is no peace in that, as we will always wonder 'have I given enough of myself for forgiveness?'.

If you study scripture it gives an answer to "have I given enough". Scripture tells us exactly what Christ forgives and what we are to give to Him in Leviticus 1 to 17. It is not only the sins we are aware of but the ones that we have in us but are not conscious of. It doesn't say a word about measurements of sin. Nor is there anything about questioning the Lord about how much to give God. That is not God's way.

 

[crossnote]

We are explained to, we are told, exactly how to give ourselves to Christ and what Christ does for us. Christ pays for our sin. We give our sin to Christ for payment. How could we give them over to Christ without repentance? We can then boast in Christ for what was done for us.

That work idea is a human made one to distort the way of the Lord. They say following Christ is work and we shouldn't work. If they would put on Christ they wouldn't get caught up in these man made ideas. Scripture doesn't tell us "don't work". But it is possible to pull and push facts around to make it come out that way, and they call themselves scholars when they do that.

God's way is simple, to the point, and correct. Christ puts it this way "follow me". Christ didn't call it work, Christ called it freedom.

If you study scripture it gives an answer to "have I given enough". Scripture tells us exactly what Christ forgives and what we are to give to Him in Leviticus 1 to 17. It is not only the sins we are aware of but the ones that we have in us but are not conscious of. It doesn't say a word about measurements of sin. Nor is there anything about questioning the Lord about how much to give God. That is not God's way.

I'd rather go with Scripture...

Romans 5:15-16 NASBS
[15] But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. [16] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 6:23 NASBS
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...and lean on His righteousness AND free gift of forgiveness.

 

[NayborBear]

Thats what I thought

1. You made an accusation (ALL people who say ALL who have great faith and works TEACH WORKS salvation)
2. You were asked to prove that accusation (who says these things?)
3. As usual, You refuse to give examples or show proof and then try to blame shift (because everyone here knows YOU CAN:T NAME NAMES because NO ONE SAYS THOSE THINGS)

By the way, It is not me who wants, It is you who wants, Because you just DESTROYED Your whole argument, Because you claimed that PEOPLE do this. But CAN NOT NAME ONE PERSON

Ps. Your wrong in your assumption

People like me DO NOT believe those who HAVE GREAT FAITH and GREAT WORKS are working for salvation. Thats a LIE, and you just proved (I gave you the opportunity to prove your statement and you failed) that this is correct. If we felt that way, we would JUDGE ourselves as believing in a works based gospel

What we SAY, is that those who claim that SALVATION IS EARNED or MAINTAINED by those works teach a works based gospel.

People like you and JaumeJ and others who continue to teach the LIE that we believe YOU teach a works based gospel SOLELY on the fact you CLAIM to have GREAT FAITH AND WORKS. Will continue to be proven wrong every time, because we will continue to demand you PROVE your statement by showing us WHO teaches what you CLAIM we teach.

And you, like him (them) continue to do the same thing, blame shift. And refuse to prove it

Well you just discredited yourself. I hope your happy with yourself!!

And, I keep tellin' y'all, that y'all are combining works needed, yea required, is NOT for salvation, per se, as it IS for the gaining OF, and the maintaining OF "KEEPING ONE'S "ELECTION" ASSURED!"
The reason y'all are seeing it that way?
Is because the spirit of anti-christ has rendered y'all as a NO THREAT to it, in the spiritual warfare scheme of things!
Sure! y'alls souls be saved! Yet, as far as "spiritual maturity" goes?
Most wouldn't be able to discern the spirit of anti-christ, if it crawled up their pant leg!
"Oh! That's just a nervous twitch."
"Just a migraine."
"Just a "kink" in my neck, I get from time to time."
There are "spiritual conversations" going on within a believer, EVERY WAKING MOMENT!
Most can't "hear" 'em, cuz their dead to 'em!
"Things?"......"Just HAPPEN!"
So, if yer at peace with yer election? Then, you are NOT doing SOMETHING right!
Paul sez to "pray without ceasing." "How can that be?" "That's IMPOSSIBLE!"
No....It AIN'T!
But, it takes works, to figure out what must be done!

 

[Blik]

I'd rather go with Scripture...

Romans 5:15-16 NASBS
[15] But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. [16] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 6:23 NASBS
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...and lean on His righteousness AND free gift of forgiveness.

That is it exactly, have my words been any different? If they were, it wasn't my intent.

 

[crossnote]

That is it exactly, have my words been any different? If they were, it wasn't my intent.

OK, I believe that was your intent if you say it was.

 

[Guojing]

OK, I believe that was your intent if you say it was.

The problem is after you accept Christ by faith, they now tell you, you need to be doing this or that, to show that your faith is not dead faith. If it’s dead faith, it can’t save you.

That is where the circular argument comes in 🤗

 

[crossnote]

The problem is after you accept Christ by faith, they now tell you, you need to be doing this or that, to show that your faith is not dead faith. If it’s dead faith, it can’t save you.

That is where the circular argument comes in 🤗

LOL, good one. I'd tell them, "My faith has never saved me, it is Jesus who saves and my faith is in that fact". Otherwise they could go pound sand.

 

[UnderGrace]

The problem is after you accept Christ by faith, they now tell you, you need to be doing this or that, to show that your faith is not dead faith. If it’s dead faith, it can’t save you.

That is where the circular argument comes in 🤗

But something that is dead was once alive, right

 

[Guojing]

But something that is dead was once alive, right

The problem with an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument. The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

 

[Blik]

OK, I believe that was your intent if you say it was.

I am curious, how did you read my post that is so different?

 

[Blik]

The problem with an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument. The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

That is not how I perceive it.

If works caused God to accept us in His kingdom, then our work would have to be Godly work, we would have to be a God. We aren't. So that stops all arguments about how perfect we are.

If we accept ourselves as accepted by God, then it has to be through Christ, we are told it is the only way. Now this self that we are is the same as one who has worked, as humans like to call it. It is a self that is the same as one who could be Godly, only it is Christ that did it for us. Now faith comes in. God looks at our faith. Do we have faith in the way of the Lord or the way of the devil?

The "don't work" people get their minds all mixed up instead of hearing God. Some say any work is for the purpose of earning salvation, and that label put on working for the lord is a false one.

 

[Guojing]

That is not how I perceive it.

If works caused God to accept us in His kingdom, then our work would have to be Godly work, we would have to be a God. We aren't. So that stops all arguments about how perfect we are.

If we accept ourselves as accepted by God, then it has to be through Christ, we are told it is the only way. Now this self that we are is the same as one who has worked, as humans like to call it. It is a self that is the same as one who could be Godly, only it is Christ that did it for us. Now faith comes in. God looks at our faith. Do we have faith in the way of the Lord or the way of the devil?

The "don't work" people get their minds all mixed up instead of hearing God. Some say any work is for the purpose of earning salvation, and that label put on working for the lord is a false one.

So you believe it is faith in Jesus, apart from works, that results in salvation, period?

No attempt to sneak in works thru the backdoor?

 

[crossnote]

The problem with an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument. The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

Would you consider the new birth 'a work'?

 

[Guojing]

Would you consider the new birth 'a work'?

Define new birth first.

 

[crossnote]

I am curious, how did you read my post that is so different?

By this remark...

If we give all, every bit of our sin including the sin that we are not aware of but
God knows of, if we give every bit to Christ for forgiveness, then it is not now much but all, every bit. T

Especially the part that says 'if we give every bit to Christ for forgiveness',...

It sounds as if it is 'works' for forgiveness.

 

[crossnote]

Define new birth first.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB
[17] Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.