Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

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Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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The next question is whether we can loose our salvation through doing the work for evil? The only scripture I know that addresses that is:

1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co_6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

By these scriptures Paul seems to be right when he tells us that we must give over our will to Christ to live without sin by our will, even though we sometimes act outside of our will. So even though it is not our works that saves, it is Christ, our works can still kill if we don't include Christ in our daily living.

So. Now your stand is

Works are not sufficient for salvation but they are necessary?

Aka you cannot gain salvation thru works but you can lose it thru lack of works?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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So. Now your stand is

Works are not sufficient for salvation but they are necessary?

Aka you cannot gain salvation thru works but you can lose it thru lack of works?
You have twisted God's words to fit your fleshly mind.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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You have twisted God's words to fit your fleshly mind.
Aren’t u Glad someone is trying to understand you?

State your opinion clearly. Are works necessary for salvation? If you think so, be brave and make it clear.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,488
377
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Aren’t u Glad someone is trying to understand you?

State your opinion clearly. Are works necessary for salvation? If you think so, be brave and make it clear.
My opinion counts for absolutely nothing. God's way is what counts. If what I say with my own words are not exactly as the truth of the Lord is it is blowing in the wind, as is yours. I have stated on this thread what God tells me, you say it is not clear what God thinks about works necessary for salvation. I think God is very clear about it.

There is no way for human works to be taken as Godly works.

There is no way for Christ to pay for your sin if you will not give it to Him, but hold on to it.

This is the truth in the lord, you can put it into your work or no work way of saying it and all your fleshly reasoning you want, you can't change God or give him your orders for God to obey you.

It is entirely up to you how you want to fit your work or no work into these facts.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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My opinion counts for absolutely nothing. God's way is what counts. If what I say with my own words are not exactly as the truth of the Lord is it is blowing in the wind, as is yours. I have stated on this thread what God tells me, you say it is not clear what God thinks about works necessary for salvation. I think God is very clear about it.

There is no way for human works to be taken as Godly works.

There is no way for Christ to pay for your sin if you will not give it to Him, but hold on to it.

This is the truth in the lord, you can put it into your work or no work way of saying it and all your fleshly reasoning you want, you can't change God or give him your orders for God to obey you.

It is entirely up to you how you want to fit your work or no work into these facts.
Remember it’s always our interpretation of scripture that forms belief. You interpret in a way that is unique to your upbringing from the church you are at.

People are disagreeing with your interpretation, not the scriptures directly. Just state clearly your interpretation. Don’t hide behind “but God is the one who stated this!”
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The work of GOD not the work of man.
Don't equating the flesh on the same level with the Spirit.
Instead give GOD the glory of doing the perfect work accepted by a GOD who loves righteousness and giving you grace through faith.

By the mercy of GOD present your body/mind a living sacrifice,not conforming to this world's ways but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Respectfully, your response doesn't make sense. Faith is being certain of what we can't see (Hebrews 11:1). Whose faith? Ours! It's a given that God believes in the One He has sent... but that doesn't save us if we don't believe! We are to believe in the One He has sent. Jesus was saying is that we are not to trust our own work, or think that by our own effort we can achieve righteousness unto salvation. Rather, the only "work" (unto salvation) we are to do is believe in Jesus. How do you see all this?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,214
238
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My opinion counts for absolutely nothing. God's way is what counts. If what I say with my own words are not exactly as the truth of the Lord is it is blowing in the wind, as is yours. I have stated on this thread what God tells me, you say it is not clear what God thinks about works necessary for salvation. I think God is very clear about it.
So can you confirm that you believe that works are necessary for salvation?

And yes, I know that you sincerely believe in your heart that God backs what you are saying. :)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,488
377
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Remember it’s always our interpretation of scripture that forms belief. You interpret in a way that is unique to your upbringing from the church you are at.

People are disagreeing with your interpretation, not the scriptures directly. Just state clearly your interpretation. Don’t hide behind “but God is the one who stated this!”
I am not interpreting, I am stating what scripture says. It says works won't save and it says that if we insist on sinfulness, that sin kills. If you say that insisting on making it our will to not sin is work, then it is a distortion of what scripture says yet you can make logic say this. If you class turning our will over to Christ as work, that is an interpretation but it is not scripture.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Respectfully, your response doesn't make sense. Faith is being certain of what we can't see (Hebrews 11:1). Whose faith? Ours! It's a given that God believes in the One He has sent... but that doesn't save us if we don't believe! We are to believe in the One He has sent. Jesus was saying is that we are not to trust our own work, or think that by our own effort we can achieve righteousness unto salvation. Rather, the only "work" (unto salvation) we are to do is believe in Jesus. How do you see all this?
I posted this post and looked at It when I should have corrected the grammar before I posted It so that you could understand It but then I corrected It after I posted It and I got the message that my changes had been made but then I look at this post that you are responding to and It’s the one that I changed,IDK what happened.

Should have been

The work of GOD In CHRIST Is not the work of man.When It comes to work,only the perfect WORK of JESUS Is accepted.Any work that man does would not be acceptable and to hopefully show you with scripture what I mean I will leave this.
Romans 7:20-23
King James Version


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



Don't equate the flesh on the same level with the Spirit,your mind Is not perfect and you WILL sin because you can’t stop It and GOD will only accept perfection.
+++
Instead give JESUS the glory of doing the perfect work accepted by our heavenly FATHER GOD who loves righteousness giving us grace through faith.

Paul wrote that by the mercy of GOD present your body/mind a living sacrifice,not conforming to this world's ways but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,488
377
83
So can you confirm that you believe that works are necessary for salvation?

And yes, I know that you sincerely believe in your heart that God backs what you are saying. :)
No, I can't confirm that. I would have to get inside your mind to find out what you consider "works". I know that people who willingly hold on to their sin without giving it to Christ can not ask Christ to forgive that sin they keep to themselves. I can see how with a certain kind of logic that could be twisted around to say that you can't be saved without works and at the very same moment it is true that we are not saved by our works. That is also true. So how could I meet your mind's way of using facts to get the truth to you?

As an example an alcoholic can say Christ forgive my drinking, but I like it and plan on more of it tomorrow. That isn't going to work for salvation. If the alcoholic goes to Christ and gives his drinking to Christ for forgiveness, and within himself he wills sincerely to never drink again then Christ wipes him clean of that sin and he is saved. Then in this example if his body's cravings overpower him tomorrow and, against his will, he drinks even though his sincere heartfelt will was to not drink and he again goes to Christ saying this time I will not drink again. If he again vows to God and himself to never drink, he is saved. There is work in this "for examp0le" but it was
Christ not the work that saved.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,214
238
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As an example an alcoholic can say Christ forgive my drinking, but I like it and plan on more of it tomorrow. That isn't going to work for salvation. If the alcoholic goes to Christ and gives his drinking to Christ for forgiveness, and within himself he wills sincerely to never drink again then Christ wipes him clean of that sin and he is saved. Then in this example if his body's cravings overpower him tomorrow and, against his will, he drinks even though his sincere heartfelt will was to not drink and he again goes to Christ saying this time I will not drink again. If he again vows to God and himself to never drink, he is saved. There is work in this "for examp0le" but it was
Christ not the work that saved.
Okay, this example of yours makes it clear the difference in what both of us believe in.

To me, the only sin that will result in hell, is the sin of rejecting Jesus as your divine substitute. That is what I meant when I said, salvation is by faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone.

But after you put your faith in the DBR, will you still drink and if you continue to do so, will that result in you losing your salvation? By what I am believing above, my answer is no. But for you, its yes, unless the person continues to repent of his drinking and continue to seek Jesus's forgiveness, he may lose his salvation as a result of his continued alcoholism.

I believe you are using 1 John 1:9 and interpreting that to support this belief of yours. For me, I believe 1 John 1:9 is not for the believer but the unbeliever.

The way out of alcoholism for me is not, "try your best and let Jesus do the rest". I would suggest that the alcoholic, everything he drinks, he needs to declare out loud "I am the righteousness of God in Christ!" That is the way to break out of alcoholism, as well as any other sins he may be struggling with.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Merced, CA
Okay, this example of yours makes it clear the difference in what both of us believe in.

To me, the only sin that will result in hell, is the sin of rejecting Jesus as your divine substitute. That is what I meant when I said, salvation is by faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone.

But after you put your faith in the DBR, will you still drink and if you continue to do so, will that result in you losing your salvation? By what I am believing above, my answer is no. But for you, its yes, unless the person continues to repent of his drinking and continue to seek Jesus's forgiveness, he may lose his salvation as a result of his continued alcoholism.

I believe you are using 1 John 1:9 and interpreting that to support this belief of yours. For me, I believe 1 John 1:9 is not for the believer but the unbeliever.

The way out of alcoholism for me is not, "try your best and let Jesus do the rest". I would suggest that the alcoholic, everything he drinks, he needs to declare out loud "I am the righteousness of God in Christ!" That is the way to break out of alcoholism, as well as any other sins he may be struggling with.
You speak correctly when you say "To me" the only sin that will get you to hell. Because the Bible teaches of all the many sins that will keep people from entering heaven. Hence they will be cast into hell.

You are not God. So anyone else should respect what God says on the matter of hell and what sins will send you there. From what God says the road is broad and MANY who go thereof.

Those who belong to God are no longer slaves of sin. We are slaves to Christ. The bondage of sin has been broken and we obtain a new yoke. Christ's yoke is light. The bondage of sin is death. If he saved you from sin, we must turn from it. Not return to our vomit. Much less think it any less than vile, or that there is only one sin. Foolishness.

There is only one sin that is unforgiveable. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,275
4,096
113
I posted this post and looked at It when I should have corrected the grammar before I posted It so that you could understand It but then I corrected It after I posted It and I got the message that my changes had been made but then I look at this post that you are responding to and It’s the one that I changed,IDK what happened.

Should have been

The work of GOD In CHRIST Is not the work of man.When It comes to work,only the perfect WORK of JESUS Is accepted.Any work that man does would not be acceptable and to hopefully show you with scripture what I mean I will leave this.
Romans 7:20-23
King James Version


20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



Don't equate the flesh on the same level with the Spirit,your mind Is not perfect and you WILL sin because you can’t stop It and GOD will only accept perfection.
+++
Instead give JESUS the glory of doing the perfect work accepted by our heavenly FATHER GOD who loves righteousness giving us grace through faith.

Paul wrote that by the mercy of GOD present your body/mind a living sacrifice,not conforming to this world's ways but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Okay, I think I understand you now. Thanks for explaining.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,275
4,096
113
No, I can't confirm that. I would have to get inside your mind to find out what you consider "works". I know that people who willingly hold on to their sin without giving it to Christ can not ask Christ to forgive that sin they keep to themselves. I can see how with a certain kind of logic that could be twisted around to say that you can't be saved without works and at the very same moment it is true that we are not saved by our works. That is also true. So how could I meet your mind's way of using facts to get the truth to you?

As an example an alcoholic can say Christ forgive my drinking, but I like it and plan on more of it tomorrow. That isn't going to work for salvation. If the alcoholic goes to Christ and gives his drinking to Christ for forgiveness, and within himself he wills sincerely to never drink again then Christ wipes him clean of that sin and he is saved. Then in this example if his body's cravings overpower him tomorrow and, against his will, he drinks even though his sincere heartfelt will was to not drink and he again goes to Christ saying this time I will not drink again. If he again vows to God and himself to never drink, he is saved. There is work in this "for examp0le" but it was
Christ not the work that saved.
Your example describes a salvation based on human frailty, not on the finished work of Christ.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,214
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You speak correctly when you say "To me" the only sin that will get you to hell. Because the Bible teaches of all the many sins that will keep people from entering heaven. Hence they will be cast into hell.

You are not God. So anyone else should respect what God says on the matter of hell and what sins will send you there. From what God says the road is broad and MANY who go thereof.

Those who belong to God are no longer slaves of sin. We are slaves to Christ. The bondage of sin has been broken and we obtain a new yoke. Christ's yoke is light. The bondage of sin is death. If he saved you from sin, we must turn from it. Not return to our vomit. Much less think it any less than vile, or that there is only one sin. Foolishness.

There is only one sin that is unforgiveable. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, as I have said to Bilk, all of us are interpreting the bible so I will not say "This is what the Bible clearly says". :) My understanding is based on these 2 passages

John 16:8-9 8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me.

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So you think there are all kinds of sins that will send someone to hell? Would you mind stating what these sins are, in your opinion?

That passage that Jesus used about narrow and broad way, yes I am aware that many churches teach that as salvation vs hell, but let's just say that it need not refer to just these 2 choices.

And for me, I believe under the grace dispensation, there is no more unforgiveable sin, you can only sin against the HS by rejecting Jesus as your divine substitute. As John 16:8-9 says, that is the only sin the HS will ever convict the unbeliever of.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
231
76
28
36
Merced, CA
Yes, as I have said to Bilk, all of us are interpreting the bible so I will not say "This is what the Bible clearly says". :) My understanding is based on these 2 passages

John 16:8-9 8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me.

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So you think there are all kinds of sins that will send someone to hell? Would you mind stating what these sins are, in your opinion?

That passage that Jesus used about narrow and broad way, yes I am aware that many churches teach that as salvation vs hell, but let's just say that it need not refer to just these 2 choices.

And for me, I believe under the grace dispensation, there is no more unforgiveable sin, you can only sin against the HS by rejecting Jesus as your divine substitute. As John 16:8-9 says, that is the only sin the HS will ever convict the unbeliever of.
Goodluck with that. I hope you dont fall into the numerable sins that will not inherit the kingdom of God. I dont need to share that with you, you have a bible I suppose? Read it.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Goodluck with that. I hope you dont fall into the numerable sins that will not inherit the kingdom of God. I dont need to share that with you, you have a bible I suppose? Read it.
I know in many churches, they preach that the kingdom of God in Galatians 5 refers to heaven, or salvation.

As I have said many times, it is always Man's interpretation of the bible, not what the bible says itself. :)
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
231
76
28
36
Merced, CA
I know in many churches, they preach that the kingdom of God in Galatians 5 refers to heaven, or salvation.

As I have said many times, it is always Man's interpretation of the bible, not what the bible says itself. :)
Well whoever is interpreting the bible for you is wrong. Not sure if its your church or some man. But theyre flat out wrong bro. Not tryna slam you or nothing but just hope you do some more searching. Because what your standing on is softer then some cotton.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Goodluck with that. I hope you dont fall into the numerable sins that will not inherit the kingdom of God. I dont need to share that with you, you have a bible I suppose? Read it.
Holier than thou are we?
What makes you think your sin is any less stagnant to God as those sins?

James said if we break even the least. We are guilty of all.

I would not go around worrying about what sins are ok and what sins discredit you. ALL sins make you (apart from grace) fall short of Gods glory and would condemn you to hell.
 
Apr 10, 2019
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Okay, this example of yours makes it clear the difference in what both of us believe in.

To me, the only sin that will result in hell, is the sin of rejecting Jesus as your divine substitute. That is what I meant when I said, salvation is by faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone.

But after you put your faith in the DBR, will you still drink and if you continue to do so, will that result in you losing your salvation? By what I am believing above, my answer is no. But for you, its yes, unless the person continues to repent of his drinking and continue to seek Jesus's forgiveness, he may lose his salvation as a result of his continued alcoholism.

I believe you are using 1 John 1:9 and interpreting that to support this belief of yours. For me, I believe 1 John 1:9 is not for the believer but the unbeliever.

The way out of alcoholism for me is not, "try your best and let Jesus do the rest". I would suggest that the alcoholic, everything he drinks, he needs to declare out loud "I am the righteousness of God in Christ!" That is the way to break out of alcoholism, as well as any other sins he may be struggling with.
No wonder the churches are in a state of ruin and apostasy if this is what is preached.

Here is the biblical way of dealing with alcohol abusers: REPENT or you wont inherit the kingdom. (1 Cor 6:9)

I have yet to see the "I am the righteousness of God in Christ!" work, its repeated and parroted by the pundits everywhere, yet we are seeing absolutely no fruit. We are seeing the opposite, we are seeing a national convention of Christian witches (Thats a real thing) and we are seeing apostasy and iniquity increase.

The reason for apostasy/iniquity and its increase is exactly what is being preached, saved in alcoholism, saved in adultery, saved in the very act. The minute someone brings up repentance in one of those bible studies, their character will be maligned, attacked and they will be discredited as teaching "works salvation" or "pelagian heresy". See its only the devil who would tell you to stop sinning in today's mainstream christianity, to say "repent" = evil, to say continue on in your alcoholism, maybe God will grant you victory Jesus loves you anyway = good. (Ignoring Ephesians 5:3-6 written to the CHURCH):

Ephesians 5:3-6
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Dont let anyone deceive you with empty words and platitudes and philosophy and vain deceit, God's wrath is reserved for those who dont repent of alcoholism. I dont care what psychology nonsense the pastor is trying to feed you, God's word is clear. [Notice readers: It says be not deceived, just like in 1 Cor 6:9, because the Holy Spirit knew people would be deceiving on this very subject]