Fallacies of the Present Day Church

[Skinski7]

Abiding...


You did state, "ok then if a person sins willfully he is not saved. Hmmm" which appears to clearly imply that you believe one can "willfully sin" and remain "saved."

If that is the case then your Gospel is not the Gospel of the Bible. Perhaps I did not understand your words and if that is the case then I apologise.

Do you believe that an inidividual can wlllfully sin against their knowledge of the truth and remain in a justified state before God? That is really the point of the child molester question. It is such an extreme example yet the pastors and preachers I ask that question always have to answer that yes a Christian CAN SIN and remain justified.

It cuts to the root of the issues I am addressing.

 

[Abiding]

Abiding...


You did state, "ok then if a person sins willfully he is not saved. Hmmm" which appears to clearly imply that you believe one can "willfully sin" and remain "saved."

If that is the case then your Gospel is not the Gospel of the Bible. Perhaps I did not understand your words and if that is the case then I apologise.

Do you believe that an inidividual can wlllfully sin against their knowledge of the truth and remain in a justified state before God? That is really the point of the child molester question. It is such an extreme example yet the pastors and preachers I ask that question always have to answer that yes a Christian CAN SIN and remain justified.

It cuts to the root of the issues I am addressing.

but you willingly 2 times falsely accused me. Are you still saved?
i need this to go much slower than slam dunk. And when you throw
very deep and serious hypotheticals with a practiced art
of proving a point if i think its too lopsided i just wont answer.

Thats not avoiding the doctrines of the bible. Its just that
im not gona allow myself to be handled when im only hear
to dialogue.

And you havnt answered a few of my questions also.
Just sayin that since you said it to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but you willingly 2 times falsely accused me. Are you still saved?
i need this to go much slower than slam dunk. And when you throw
very deep and serious hypotheticals with a practiced art
of proving a point if i think its too lopsided i just wont answer.

Thats not avoiding the doctrines of the bible. Its just that
im not gona allow myself to be handled when im only hear
to dialogue.

And you havnt answered a few of my questions also.
Just sayin that since you said it to me.

He is one of those religious fanatics who likes to use things which would make us sick, like a child molester, to trap us into something in an attempt to make us look bad.

He does not realise in Gods eyes, Seeing someone in need, and not helping them. Saying a little white lie to get out of trouble, or even doing something good out of selfish reasons in Gods eyes is just as evil as that child molester. That if we break even the least of the law, we are guilty of the whole law.

They think themselves righteous because they do not molest children, or rape ladies, or murder people. and because of it, they deserve salvation. Much like paul thought when he was saul before Christ came to him on that day. The difference is, Paul realized then how brutally sinful he was, And he continued to realize it up till his death. Thats why he wrote Romans 7 sand said what he did to his brother timothy. Until these guys see this, they will never understand us or our gospel. I fear it will take standing front of God themselves to realize just how horrible sinners they are, Unfortunately by then it will be too late.

 

[webchatter]

I was not aware that there was any Christian denomination that believes they don't need to repent for past sins, or that continuing to sin does not require true repentance.
A little off subject, but it's always been amazing to me that the large # of denominations who openly criticize Catholocism, actually have many of the same core beliefs as Catholics.
If original sin, in & of itself only, lead to death=damnation, then children & brain damaged people all are going to hell/lake of fire. I know they don't go to hell, Jesus Himself said so, sorry I cannot find the verse.
There isn't ANY denomination I agree with on EVERYTHING. Certainly a theology difference shouldn't outrage another Christian. God Bless all of you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was not aware that there was any Christian denomination that believes they don't need to repent for past sins, or that continuing to sin does not require true repentance.
A little off subject, but it's always been amazing to me that the large # of denominations who openly criticize Catholocism, actually have many of the same core beliefs as Catholics.
If original sin, in & of itself only, lead to death=damnation, then children & brain damaged people all are going to hell/lake of fire. I know they don't go to hell, Jesus Himself said so, sorry I cannot find the verse.
There isn't ANY denomination I agree with on EVERYTHING. Certainly a theology difference shouldn't outrage another Christian. God Bless all of you.

I agree. I don;t agree with any denomination 100 %. The thing we have to look at is the Gospel. Although all denominations (even non denoms) disagree on many points. There are only three basic gospels taught by all.

1. Gospel of works. Salvation is given to those who deserve it, whatever means it may be, and they all can;t even agree wiht what the means are. Eg.. Catholics have many sacraments to gain salvation and even then not guaranteed, While some just say you must be good enough, and not be "in sin"

2. Licentious: A mere belief, minus repentance, will get you to heaven. and you can live however you want.

3. Faith. True repentance leads to true faith in the work of Christ. Those saved are made new creatures in Christ, and thus will do the works God created us to do.

I guess today I can add a 4th. Universalism. Everyone is going to get saved. so it does not matter what we do.

 

[Skinski7]

He is one of those religious fanatics who likes to use things which would make us sick, like a child molester, to trap us into something in an attempt to make us look bad.

He does not realise in Gods eyes, Seeing someone in need, and not helping them. Saying a little white lie to get out of trouble, or even doing something good out of selfish reasons in Gods eyes is just as evil as that child molester. That if we break even the least of the law, we are guilty of the whole law.

They think themselves righteous because they do not molest children, or rape ladies, or murder people. and because of it, they deserve salvation. Much like paul thought when he was saul before Christ came to him on that day. The difference is, Paul realized then how brutally sinful he was, And he continued to realize it up till his death. Thats why he wrote Romans 7 sand said what he did to his brother timothy. Until these guys see this, they will never understand us or our gospel. I fear it will take standing front of God themselves to realize just how horrible sinners they are, Unfortunately by then it will be too late.

Eternally Grateful,

I have been in circles with you quite a few times.

The man in Romans 7 is "Carnal and Sold" under sin and therefore HAS NOT been set free. You believe that one can be CARNAL and in BONDAGE to sin and still enter the kingdom.

You will always bring this "earning" or "deserving" salvation business up.

In your mind a person who preaches that one must forsake their sin (like the Bible teaches) is a heretic.

In your mind a person who preaches that those who are Christs HAVE (past tense) crucified the flesh with its passions and desires in repentance is a heretic.

In your mind a person who states that if you WILLFULLY SIN after coming to a knowledge of the truth and HAVE (past tense) been sanctified that there is no more sacrifice for such a sin is a heretic.

You obviously do not believe the Bible but dance around the Scriptures with rhetoric in favour of defending sin and your saved IN sins gospel message.

Remember this...

People need to think! This is why God is given a bad name, in the name of religion.

1. The thought you have to stop any particualar sin before you get saved is just plain false. and is not in knowing God whatever.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/39757-state-emergency-churches.html

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

2. We all like to point out the sins WE DEEM as evil sins, but what about the sins we do not think of, or deem evil. do you think God does not think those sins are just as evil??

3. Saying one must stop any sin before they can be saved in reality is the same as saying one must be sinless before he can be saved. How is this possible?

Why do we still want to be pharisees bumping our chests claiming we are not like the sinner, and not be the sinner on our knees thanking God for forgiving us?

What you tend to do is equate the "ceasing of willful sin" with that of "perfection." Nowhere do I say that one has to be perfect before coming to Christ, it is simply that the willful rebellion STOPS in repentance. A drunk does not approach Jesus Christ for pardon and then turn around and go and get drunk again. Forgiveness is CONDITIONAL on a genuine repentance whereby the sinner forsakes their rebellion, if that doesn't happen there is no forgiveness and there is most certainly no salvation.On that particular you wrote this...

I have seen alcoholics who come to Christ stop drinking immediately. I have also seen many who have not, but continued to struggle in this area, but at the same time have great victory over other sin areas in their life. Am I going to condemn this person who has shown he had true faith by the works he has shown (james) because he does not show the work many in todays church demands he shows? Who died and made us God?

Thus you clearly deny that the drunk MUST forsake their drunkenness. In your religion the drunk can still be in bondage to the sin of drinking and be "saved" at the same time which means that "salvation" to you is something that is completely abstract from the deeds done in the body. You only view salvation in the terms of having been pardoned from condemnation but not as having been set free from the bondage of sin.You will always argue in favour of being able to willfully sin and remain justified in the eyes of God. Eternally Grateful you clearly teach Satan's first lie of "Ye Shall Not Surely Die."

In your first response to this thread you stated that I would have murdered Jesus, that I would have spoken against His righteousness. You stated that I would have killed my brother Abel.

Yep. lets all be pharisees. People like skinski here would have crucified Christ because Christ would have spoken against his human Good. Skinski would have killed his brother because God would have rejected his sacrifice, and received that of his brother who slew the lamb.

Skinskis doctrine has been around since Cain and Abel. Yet people still believe his anit-christ views. It just amazes me how mankind makes the same mistakes over and over.

Simply unbelievable. Instead of directly addressing any of the scriptural points I make you accuse me of being a MURDERER at heart. That is so sad but it reveals the darkness you are in, that is for sure.

You'll notice in this thread that most of the responses are ad hominem in nature.

If one believes that sins are forgiven in advance then point to where in the Bible it states that God forgives sins unconditionally BEFORE they are committed. I don't see it anywhere, in fact the direct opposite is clearly stated like in Romans 3:25. People simply do not really believe the scriptures, they hold to certain doctrines in the mind which override the Scripture.

If one believes that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the sinners account so that when the sinner sins God only sees Jesus then why is it that Jesus never taught such a doctrine anywhere? Surely that must raise a question in someone's mind.

When someone teaches that "you don't have to do ANYTHING" to be saved because that would be "works" then why did Jesus teach that one must STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate as well as be a DOER of His instruction? Jesus clearly states the opposite of what multitudes believe. Are the multitudes who deny DOING correct and Jesus is wrong?

I see a church system today which cherry picks a few verses out of the Bible here and there and completely ignores the rest. They use these very few cherry picked verses to support a monstrous doctrine that you can be saved IN your sins and that the "finished work of Jesus Christ" is some sort of all inclusive package deal which is a cloak for ongoing rebellion.

Anyone who preaches, strive, dig deep, go and sin no more, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus, lay aside your filth, repent and forsake sin is deemed to be of the devil. How is this any different than the Pharisees accusing Jesus of having a devil? There is none.

They hated the truth back then and people hate the truth right now, especially religious people.

 

[Skinski7]

I agree. I don;t agree with any denomination 100 %. The thing we have to look at is the Gospel. Although all denominations (even non denoms) disagree on many points. There are only three basic gospels taught by all.

1. Gospel of works. Salvation is given to those who deserve it, whatever means it may be, and they all can;t even agree wiht what the means are. Eg.. Catholics have many sacraments to gain salvation and even then not guaranteed, While some just say you must be good enough, and not be "in sin"

2. Licentious: A mere belief, minus repentance, will get you to heaven. and you can live however you want.

3. Faith. True repentance leads to true faith in the work of Christ. Those saved are made new creatures in Christ, and thus will do the works God created us to do.

I guess today I can add a 4th. Universalism. Everyone is going to get saved. so it does not matter what we do.

Your version of repentance rejects the crucifixion of the flesh with the associated passions and desires. That is one of your errors.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You deny that it is mandatory to OBEY FROM THE HEART.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Instead you call such things legalism, or works based salvation, or denying Jesus, or "look how good I am I deserve salvation" etc.

 

[Skinski7]

I was not aware that there was any Christian denomination that believes they don't need to repent for past sins, or that continuing to sin does not require true repentance.
A little off subject, but it's always been amazing to me that the large # of denominations who openly criticize Catholocism, actually have many of the same core beliefs as Catholics.
If original sin, in & of itself only, lead to death=damnation, then children & brain damaged people all are going to hell/lake of fire. I know they don't go to hell, Jesus Himself said so, sorry I cannot find the verse.
There isn't ANY denomination I agree with on EVERYTHING. Certainly a theology difference shouldn't outrage another Christian. God Bless all of you.

If you dig deep into the theology of today you'll quickly find that most actually teach, when all the rhetoric is stripped away, that repentance is simply "admitting that one is sinful and wanting to stop."

Nineveh did not admit they were sinful and persist in their rebellion. They repented which meant their mind, inclinations and desires changed which produced a turning from all willful sin which is part and parcel of a true conversion.

Anyone who continues in any sort of willful transgression whatsoever IS NOT walking in the light and will therefore not be cleansed by the blood. This is elementary stuff.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternally Grateful,

I have been in circles with you quite a few times.

Yeah you have. and have been proven wrong over and over again.

The man in Romans 7 is "Carnal and Sold" under sin and therefore HAS NOT been set free. You believe that one can be CARNAL and in BONDAGE to sin and still enter the kingdom.

The man in romans 7 is Paul, Who was a man of God. who admited he still struggled over sin. Who admited when he DID sin, it was NO LONGER HIM, but the flesh which was warring inside of him.

He said there was a war in his body, and this war was between the flesh and the spirit. It could not have been before he was saved, or before he was "set free" as you want to claim, because he would not have had the spirit then, only the flesh. Thus there would be no war.

Your wrong on every point of romans 7. you just refuse to admit it.

And no, I do not believe one can be in bondage and enter the kingdom. Because they would be under law. and not under grace. As paul said, we were not given the spirit of bondage again to fear. but of adoption. You want to live under law. Thus you are the one under bondage, not us.

You will always bring this "earning" or "deserving" salvation business up.

yes I will, when people are teaching this false gospel, I will expose them for who they really are.

In your mind a person who preaches that one must forsake their sin (like the Bible teaches) is a heretic.

In your mind a person who preaches that those who are Christs HAVE (past tense) crucified the flesh with its passions and desires in repentance is a heretic.

In your mind a person who states that if you WILLFULLY SIN after coming to a knowledge of the truth and HAVE (past tense) been sanctified that there is no more sacrifice for such a sin is a heretic.

You obviously do not believe the Bible but dance around the Scriptures with rhetoric in favour of defending sin and your saved IN sins gospel message.

and your a deceiver who is out for his own pride and not for the good of the gospel.

1. If we are bound by law, we are under law and not grace.
2. if we are bound by being good enough, we are trying to get to God our way, when God says we are ALL deserving of eternal wrath and condemnation, because we all have sinned.
3. I don't teach a license to sin. God says those who are his children can;t live in sin, Not that they will or wont. It is you who are demanding that God will take our salvation away if WE DO NOT STOP SIN.
4. The Law states if we do not obey his commands 100 %, we are doomed. You say this is not so. we can disobey all we want until we are saved, But after we are saved, we better live a life of perfection or we are doomed.

Remember this...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/39757-state-emergency-churches.html

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

what does that have to do with anything? be doers, and not just hearers? Why? because if you claim to have faith, but have no works, your faiht is dead.

Can a man who has mere belief but has no faith (dead) be saved? No! So how can one lose a salvation they never had?? you can;t answer that because you want to continue to twist Gods word to your own pridefull belief, and reject the grace of God.

What you tend to do is equate the "ceasing of willful sin" with that of "perfection." Nowhere do I say that one has to be perfect before coming to Christ, it is simply that the willful rebellion STOPS in repentance. A drunk does not approach Jesus Christ for pardon and then turn around and go and get drunk again. Forgiveness is CONDITIONAL on a genuine repentance whereby the sinner forsakes their rebellion, if that doesn't happen there is no forgiveness and there is most certainly no salvation.

On that particular you wrote this...

The law demands perfection. I don;t care if you say it or not. If your saying our actions are dependent on salvation, then you must either agree with law (100% obedience) or grace, there is no in between.

Justification is dependent on faith. Not on works. Paul daid this over and over and over.

Justification = forgiveness.

Jesus said he who believes is not condemned, Not he who does good is not condemned.

Thus you clearly deny that the drunk MUST forsake their drunkenness. In your religion the drunk can still be in bondage to the sin of drinking and be "saved" at the same time which means that "salvation" to you is something that is completely abstract from the deeds done in the body. You only view salvation in the terms of having been pardoned from condemnation but not as having been set free from the bondage of sin.You will always argue in favour of being able to willfully sin and remain justified in the eyes of God. Eternally Grateful you clearly teach Satan's first lie of "Ye Shall Not Surely Die."

lol. No, you don't get it. Who is more evil, the drunk or the liar. the drunk or the one who is stuck in pride, the drunk or the one who does not give to the poor? In gods eyes they all are just as evil. You see the drunk as having to stop first. then be saved. I see the drunk as having a condition which can not be healed until he is saved. Who like Paul, Knows it is hurting him, and others. and wants to stop but can't. because he does not have the power apart from Christ. Yet once he is saved, may still struggle as his flesh is week, And it may take time to be healed. You want to condemn the poor man to hell because he still struggles, and not even give him a chance to be healed. even though he already repented of that sin. Your the one who makes God evil, not me.

You can;t judge others until you first see your own sin, which it is obvious by your many judgmental posts you are still blind to your own sin. How can you help others when you can not even help yourself?

In your first response to this thread you stated that I would have murdered Jesus, that I would have spoken against His righteousness. You stated that I would have killed my brother Abel.

and you would have, because they would have spoken against you.

Simply unbelievable. Instead of directly addressing any of the scriptural points I make you accuse me of being a MURDERER at heart. That is so sad but it reveals the darkness you are in, that is for sure.

You'll notice in this thread that most of the responses are ad hominem in nature.

If one believes that sins are forgiven in advance then point to where in the Bible it states that God forgives sins unconditionally BEFORE they are committed. I don't see it anywhere, in fact the direct opposite is clearly stated like in Romans 3:25. People simply do not really believe the scriptures, they hold to certain doctrines in the mind which override the Scripture.

If one believes that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the sinners account so that when the sinner sins God only sees Jesus then why is it that Jesus never taught such a doctrine anywhere? Surely that must raise a question in someone's mind.

When someone teaches that "you don't have to do ANYTHING" to be saved because that would be "works" then why did Jesus teach that one must STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate as well as be a DOER of His instruction? Jesus clearly states the opposite of what multitudes believe. Are the multitudes who deny DOING correct and Jesus is wrong?

I see a church system today which cherry picks a few verses out of the Bible here and there and completely ignores the rest. They use these very few cherry picked verses to support a monstrous doctrine that you can be saved IN your sins and that the "finished work of Jesus Christ" is some sort of all inclusive package deal which is a cloak for ongoing rebellion.

Anyone who preaches, strive, dig deep, go and sin no more, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus, lay aside your filth, repent and forsake sin is deemed to be of the devil. How is this any different than the Pharisees accusing Jesus of having a devil? There is none.

They hated the truth back then and people hate the truth right now, especially religious people.

you hate the truth, your are the religious problem with the world. You focus on self and mans ability and reject God, his healing help, and his love for mankind.

 

[Skinski7]

ok then if a person sins willfully he is not saved. Hmmm
Then when Peter was a coward and a hypocrite with the gentile eating thing
he was not saved?

The man who was thrown out of the church to be beat about by satan wasnt saved?

So how does this work? When someone receives the gospel, they never willfully sin from day one?
In otherwards salvation brings perfection?

Salvation brings about a release from the bondage of sin not perfection. Perfection is something we strive for once we are saved.

The issue here is guile within the heart or in other words "willful" rebellion. This is what has ceased in a saved person.

A person who is saved IS NOT a worker of iniquity. They may stumble due to error or carelessness but they will not willfully violate the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law by faith. Rather they uphold the righteousness of the law via a faith which works by love.

A true Christian lives a crucified life where the passions and desires of the flesh are subjected to the leading of the Spirit. Thus they walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The false convert is still in bondage to their flesh for they have never crucified the old man in repentance.

There is a death involved that one may be saved. We have to die with Christ that we may be raised up to newness of life by the power of God.

The false church system teaches a method by which one can be raised up to newness of life WITHOUT the death of the old man. Satan has essentially removed the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance from the Gospel.

True repentance is rarely taught today. Very few understand what it is and even fewer have actually experienced it.

Look at all the "self help" books that are marketed within the church system. Most of these books serve to coddle people in their ongoing sins. If a true repentance message was preached and people were actually being redeemed from the bondage of sin through repentance and faith whereby they access the blood of Jesus Christ there would simply be no market for all this sin coddling material.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your version of repentance rejects the crucifixion of the flesh with the associated passions and desires. That is one of your errors.

Repentance means to agree with God. admit your a sinner, and give it ALL to him..

Your version of repentance is heal yourself, then come to God and he may save you.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

yep we have, but this does not mean we are sinless. and no longer struggle, or as paul says, WAR with the flesh.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Yep, but again, this does not mean we will be perfect. or we will not war with the flesh.

You deny that it is mandatory to OBEY FROM THE HEART.

I deny I have the ability to obey from the heart unless I am born of God. You deny the fact it is impossible to do so apart from God.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Instead you call such things legalism, or works based salvation, or denying Jesus, or "look how good I am I deserve salvation" etc.

You deny grace, and instill works.

Your gospel says heal yourself then come to me after you have healed yourself and i will forgive your past sin and I might grant you eternal life. You reject faith, you instil works. And you can;t even see it, because as the pharisees were in Christ time, you refuse to admit all your hard work to be good will account for nothing.

Nicodemous got it. As jesus told him, Whoever believes in him will HAVE eternal life. You want to be like those who hated christ, whoever believes, Changes his life, Stops sin, then maybe I will forgive you and give you eternal life.

you teach conditional life, and reject eternal life. And tell us who have the hope of eternal life based on Christ;s work and his promise we are trying to excuse sin, when you do not know us at all. In fact your excusing sin. The sin you do not believe is so evil, the sin you do every day, because you do not understand how evil that sin really is in the eyes of a holy and righteous God. Your righteousness is based on your own self perception of what is good and what is not, and not on the basis of what God says,

 

[Skinski7]

The man in romans 7 is Paul, Who was a man of God. who admited he still struggled over sin. Who admited when he DID sin, it was NO LONGER HIM, but the flesh which was warring inside of him.

He said there was a war in his body, and this war was between the flesh and the spirit. It could not have been before he was saved, or before he was "set free" as you want to claim, because he would not have had the spirit then, only the flesh. Thus there would be no war.

Your wrong on every point of romans 7. you just refuse to admit it.

The wretch of Romans 7 is CARNAL and SOLD UNDER SIN (Rom 7:14).

Those who are carnally minded cannot please God. (Rom 8:6-8)

The wretch of Romans 7 does what he KNOWS NOT, thus he is in darkness (Rom 7:15).

A Christian has gone from darkness to light and has been delivered from the power of Satan.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The wretch of Romans 7 needs to be delivered from the body of death. (Rom 7:24).

A true Christian has been delivered from the body of sin through dying with Jesus Christ and then being raised up with Him by the power of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The Romans 7 wretch is a man "under the law" (Rom 7:1), in the flesh (Rom 7:4) who is also under deep conviction and thus wills to do the right thing (Rom 7:18). The Romans 7 wretch serves the law of God with his mind but with his body the law of sin (Rom 7:25).

Paul is teaching the dilemma of man in bondage to sin, who has a knowledge of the law of God yet cannot keep it. This man is a wretch and needs deliverance.

Romans 6 speaks of how to be delivered from this wretchedness and bondage through the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance. Rom 6:17 states this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

YE WERE the servants of sin. The Romans wretch is still clearly a servant of sin. Jesus taught in Joh 8:34 that those who sin are SLAVES to sin. He came to set men free (Joh 8:36) from this bondage.

Paul teaches that we are slaves to whom we obey whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) and that through dying with Christ Rom 6:4-7 and thus being set free from sin we are then to yield our instruments (our bodies) to righteousness (Rom 6:12-14).

Romans 6 is the method by which we can be set free. Romans 7 is the predicament of a sinner under conviction. Romans 8 is the victory that lies in walking after the Spirit.

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. For when we abide in this Spirit of life we fulfill the righteousness of the law by faith (Rom 8:5, Rom 3:31). You see it is via walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) that we walk in victory whereby we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those lusts have been crucified and thus we are able to walk after the Spirit (Gal 5:24-25).

You deny all of the above and cling to Romans 7 being the present Christian still struggling in bondage and being wretched. That is a gospel of defeat and is a gospel of death.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. One must be abiding in Jesus Christ and thus walking after the Spirit as opposed to being carnal and walking in the flesh.

Jesus said that if your eye is single then your whole body will be full of light. You cannot serve two masters. An individual has either been delivered from the bondage of sin or they have not. There is no middle ground. The church system today denies that one can escape the corruption that is in the world through lust and thus preaches the finished work of Jesus Christ and a cloak for the ongoing bondage and rebellion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The wretch of Romans 7 is CARNAL and SOLD UNDER SIN (Rom 7:14).

Those who are carnally minded cannot please God. (Rom 8:6-8)

The wretch of Romans 7 does what he KNOWS NOT, thus he is in darkness (Rom 7:15).

A Christian has gone from darkness to light and has been delivered from the power of Satan.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The wretch of Romans 7 needs to be delivered from the body of death. (Rom 7:24).

A true Christian has been delivered from the body of sin through dying with Jesus Christ and then being raised up with Him by the power of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The Romans 7 wretch is a man "under the law" (Rom 7:1), in the flesh (Rom 7:4) who is also under deep conviction and thus wills to do the right thing (Rom 7:18). The Romans 7 wretch serves the law of God with his mind but with his body the law of sin (Rom 7:25).

Paul is teaching the dilemma of man in bondage to sin, who has a knowledge of the law of God yet cannot keep it. This man is a wretch and needs deliverance.

Romans 6 speaks of how to be delivered from this wretchedness and bondage through the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance. Rom 6:17 states this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

YE WERE the servants of sin. The Romans wretch is still clearly a servant of sin. Jesus taught in Joh 8:34 that those who sin are SLAVES to sin. He came to set men free (Joh 8:36) from this bondage.

Paul teaches that we are slaves to whom we obey whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) and that through dying with Christ Rom 6:4-7 and thus being set free from sin we are then to yield our instruments (our bodies) to righteousness (Rom 6:12-14).

Romans 6 is the method by which we can be set free. Romans 7 is the predicament of a sinner under conviction. Romans 8 is the victory that lies in walking after the Spirit.

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. For when we abide in this Spirit of life we fulfill the righteousness of the law by faith (Rom 8:5, Rom 3:31). You see it is via walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) that we walk in victory whereby we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those lusts have been crucified and thus we are able to walk after the Spirit (Gal 5:24-25).

You deny all of the above and cling to Romans 7 being the present Christian still struggling in bondage and being wretched. That is a gospel of defeat and is a gospel of death.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. One must be abiding in Jesus Christ and thus walking after the Spirit as opposed to being carnal and walking in the flesh.

Jesus said that if your eye is single then your whole body will be full of light. You cannot serve two masters. An individual has either been delivered from the bondage of sin or they have not. There is no middle ground. The church system today denies that one can escape the corruption that is in the world through lust and thus preaches the finished work of Jesus Christ and a cloak for the ongoing bondage and rebellion.

The man of romans 7 has been delivered from the law. which caused death.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The man of romans 7 was understood the law was good. But he was (present tense) carnal.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.

The man of romans 7 wanted to good. he agreed with the law (thus proof he had already repented. because until one repents, they DO NOT AGREE WITH THE LAW) But he struggled with it. he did what he hated (another proof he had already repented, because unless one repents, they do not hate sin, they love it!) And he understood it was not he (his will) which sinned, but the flesh which still resided in him

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

the man of romans 7 understood there was a new law. That he wants to do good (because he has repented) but he still has evil present in him. He delights in the law of God (further proof of true repentnance) but he sees another thing in his body, whihc wars against that which wants to do good. and brings him to captivity of the law. Thus he calls himself a wretched man, and asks who will deliver him from the body of sin. What was his answer to this question of who would deliver him? Jesus Christ. He knew the flesh would not be removed, and he would have to suffer through it until he died, and recieved his redeemed body free of sin. so he had a plan.

He will keep his mind focused on God (the spirit) but understand, as long as the flesh remains in him, he will never be perfect.


21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


As you rightly posted. the wage (result of payment) of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through the death which Christ died.


You want to make the wage of good deeds and the ability to stop sin eternal life. thus you teach works and not grace. For as Paul said, if it is of grace, it is no longer works, for grace would not longer be grace, and as he also said, If Abraham was found by doing good deeds, he owuld have something to boast, but not before God. for what does God say, Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted (credited to his account) to him as righteousness. (He was justifed freely by the grace of God)

 

[webchatter]

Skinski7, yes I understand the "elementary stuff"!!!!.

 

[Abiding]

Salvation brings about a release from the bondage of sin not perfection. Perfection is something we strive for once we are saved.

The issue here is guile within the heart or in other words "willful" rebellion. This is what has ceased in a saved person.I dont find that in the bible, and i dont believe you have never wilfully sinned...i saw you do it. The power of sin has been broken but untill the mind is renewed and the new believer gains strength in his walk...i believe your mistaken.

A person who is saved IS NOT a worker of iniquity. They may stumble due to error or carelessness but they will not willfully violate the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law by faith. Rather they uphold the righteousness of the law via a faith which works by love.True as they grow in grace and knowledge, as the Holy Spirit deals with them.

A true Christian lives a crucified life where the passions and desires of the flesh are subjected to the leading of the Spirit. Thus they walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.True, but that does not happen in an instant....and you know that. Most christains dont even learn that for awhile...and you know this also.

The false convert is still in bondage to their flesh for they have never crucified the old man in repentance.
This is silly...a false convert ...this isnt even part of the discussion.

There is a death involved that one may be saved. We have to die with Christ that we may be raised up to newness of life by the power of God.If one is saved, this already happened and to realize it takes grace and knowledge and time again you know this.

The false church system teaches a method by which one can be raised up to newness of life WITHOUT the death of the old man. Satan has essentially removed the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance from the Gospel.Of coarse that would be false...but i never hear it taught, nevertheless why dont you spend time giving implications and applications from the word on how one can do that rather than just rant about what isnt done.

True repentance is rarely taught today. Very few understand what it is and even fewer have actually experienced it.So you say, and youve been everywhere all over the world, right?
Maybe tell of your experience, so many here would be in need to hear of a real one. Do you know that true repentance can only be brought about by God? You are either saying few are saved, or your saying God is botching it up.

Look at all the "self help" books that are marketed within the church system. Most of these books serve to coddle people in their ongoing sins. If a true repentance message was preached and people were actually being redeemed from the bondage of sin through repentance and faith whereby they access the blood of Jesus Christ there would simply be no market for all this sin coddling material.

What you are describing here is a work of the flesh to try to get yourself saved. Im sorry this will never happen.

 

[Abiding]

The man of romans 7 has been delivered from the law. which caused death.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The man of romans 7 was understood the law was good. But he was (present tense) carnal.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.

The man of romans 7 wanted to good. he agreed with the law (thus proof he had already repented. because until one repents, they DO NOT AGREE WITH THE LAW) But he struggled with it. he did what he hated (another proof he had already repented, because unless one repents, they do not hate sin, they love it!) And he understood it was not he (his will) which sinned, but the flesh which still resided in him

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

the man of romans 7 understood there was a new law. That he wants to do good (because he has repented) but he still has evil present in him. He delights in the law of God (further proof of true repentnance) but he sees another thing in his body, whihc wars against that which wants to do good. and brings him to captivity of the law. Thus he calls himself a wretched man, and asks who will deliver him from the body of sin. What was his answer to this question of who would deliver him? Jesus Christ. He knew the flesh would not be removed, and he would have to suffer through it until he died, and recieved his redeemed body free of sin. so he had a plan.

He will keep his mind focused on God (the spirit) but understand, as long as the flesh remains in him, he will never be perfect.


21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


As you rightly posted. the wage (result of payment) of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through the death which Christ died.


You want to make the wage of good deeds and the ability to stop sin eternal life. thus you teach works and not grace. For as Paul said, if it is of grace, it is no longer works, for grace would not longer be grace, and as he also said, If Abraham was found by doing good deeds, he owuld have something to boast, but not before God. for what does God say, Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted (credited to his account) to him as righteousness. (He was justifed freely by the grace of God)

Excellent exegetical work bro EG
Romans 7 is truly the claim of only the regenerate.
OH! wretched man that i am!

 

[Abiding]

Being older gives me insite the younger dont realize.
We all started out totally ignorant of spiritual things
and had a rough go of it and had no idea that God was Providentially
leading us and caring for us....then in time we learn the
doctrine and understand a great deal more what went on and why.
Our faith has been tested through trials and we see things the younger
havnt yet...so do we help them tenderly? Or slap them and call them lost fools?

What saddens me is from this prospective seeing others learn certain
things that in fact took them 10 yrs plus to know then get all uppity
and slam people around that havnt had the time to understand stuff
(now youd think they would know by their own experience, and be more honest)
and whip them.

To me, this is the work of a bully. With little understanding of God and His
incredible power to manage things.

 

[megaman125]

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. You are reading FUTURE SINS FORGIVEN into the text. Nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing.

In fact the Bible SPECIFICALLY STATES "Past Sins" yet you obviously don't believe it.

You deny that God forgives all sins. Heck, according to your "God doesn't forgive future sins" teaching, if I were to sin just before I die and I didn't have a chance to confess my sin, then God would send me to hell. People don't go to hell on a technicallity.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I quote Hebrews 10:26-29 all the time, so good job falsly assuming that I didn't know about it. Teaching that future sins are forgiven is not automatically teaching a license to sin as much as you want, that's simply you twisting what is being said to extremes.

All this is very simple and is not hard to understand. The problem is that MANY sinners simply will not receive it. They want to be saved and continue to sin. They want to "not surely die if they disobey God." Satan teaches that.

I never claimed anyone should want to continue in sin.

You use CONJECTURE and state that because Jesus died in the PAST and because all your sins WERE YET IN THE FUTURE that therefore this means that they are already forgiven.

You deny that future sins can be forgiven. According to that idea, then Jesus couldn't have died for future sins.

Jesus was not joking when He preached REPENT OR PERISH. Nor was He joking when He said "GO AND SIN NO MORE."

And when did I claim Jesus was joking about those things? Oh yeah, I didn't. Once again, this is just you putting words in my mouth and twisting what I do say.

You CANNOT QUOTE a SINGLE verse which states that FUTURE SINS ARE FORGIVEN IN ADVANCE.

You teach that God doesn't forgive all sins. I could spin the same thing back on you. You can't quote one verse that expressly states that future sins aren't forgiven. That's why you have to add your own teaching and interpretation to it.

You are not born with a sinful nature for if that was the case then sins like homosexuality would be NATURAL. Think about it.

What the heck? Homosexuality has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was talking about humans having a sinful nature in general, not that homosexuality is natural. Once again, you have to twist what I say to come to this.

Yet you are saying that YOU CAN SIN and BE SAVED at the SAME TIME. Please explain how that is not a license to sin? "Ye CAN SIN and NOT SURELY DIE" is what you are proclaiming? Can't you see that? Are you so blind to the simple truth? Take the time to think about these things.

Please show me ONE Christian that has completely stopped sinning. You teach that you have to stop sinning in order to be saved, but I can guarantee you that according to your own teaching, that you would not be saved.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8

You claim you need to stop sinning in order to be saved. That would apply to you too. So you claim that you don't sin anymore. According to this passage, that makes you a false teacher.

I hear this strawman all the time.

It's hardly a strawman when you teach that man has to do works to earn God's grace and gift of salvation.

You have the Gospel in reverse where you say you get saved and THEN you do those things. Think about it.

I don't need to think about it much, since I'm not the one that has the Gospel in reverse order. You're just claiming that I do, but your claim is once again based on twisting what I say and putting words in my mouth.

Is that so? Was Jesus lying then when He said...

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Strive - G75
agōnizomai
ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Is this another Scripture that you pretend does not exist? When Jesus tells someone that they must STRIVE is sure sounds like they have to DO something. In fact, just about every single parable of Jesus was about those WHO DID and those WHO DID NOT. Yet here you are saying that you have to DO NOTHING. You are denying the plain teachings of Jesus, can't you see that?

You keep teaching that man must work to earn God's forgiveness.

And when he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home. And many were gathered together, so that there was no more room, not even at the door. And he was preaching the word to them. And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Mark 2:1-12

So tell me then, what did the paralytic DO to earn forgiveness?

That is one of the most abused and twisted scriptures used today as a proof text of the false gospel message which is taught almost universally.

Paul IS NOT teaching a DO NOTHING Gospel. Paul is teaching that the WORKS OF THE LAW or that WORKS DONE APART FROM God will not save anyone. We are saved by GRACE (the leading of God) by faith (the active dynamic by which we put that grace to use) and the result of WORKING TOGETHER WITH GOD (2Cor 6:1) is PURITY OF HEART (Acts 15:9, 1Pet 1:22). That is the dynamic of salvation and you most certainly have to DO SOMETHING.

Once again, you have to jump to assumptions and accusations. You don't do works to GET saved, you do works BECAUSE you are saved. I never once claimed that works wouldn't follow one who is saved, that's something else you have to assume that I was teaching/thinking in order for you to romp around proclaiming the greatness of yourself and your teaching.

Yet you say you don't have to do anything. It is such a tragedy how so many are deceived by this do nothing Gospel. I urge you that you stop listening to all these teachers and pastors and just read the Bible plainly and believe what it says and then DO what it says.

I know where I stand, that's how I recognize your false teachings. I don't need you shoving your false teaching of "you have to work hard to be saved and you have to stop sinning to earn God's grace" nonsense. The only one I'm not going to listen to is you.

God is the author of salvation of those who obey Him. That is because it is God that works in you to will and to do of His good please but YOU MUST work out (put into effect, work diligently) your salvation with fear and trembling. This is not a game for your soul is at stake.

My salvation is between me and God. Fortunatly, it isn't you who gets to determine whether or not I'm saved, even though you keep romping around here boasting.

The gift from God is the DYNAMIC of Salvation. We cannot save ourselves apart from God.

Now you're contradicting yourself. You claim that man has to save himself and stop sinning, and now you're claiming that man cannot save himself.

 

[Abiding]

Furthermore the bully is even more hurtful when he has
lousy theology and the mechanics of walking by faith,
is all messed up.

 

[Grandpa]

Excellent exegetical work bro EG
Romans 7 is truly the claim of only the regenerate.
OH! wretched man that i am!

Yes, Good Job EG. The man in Romans 7 can't delight in the law of God after the inward man if he is not saved.