Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

Roughsoul1991 · May 26, 2017

[h=1]John 15:2New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

There only one way to be in Jesus lol[/FONT]

Chris1975 · May 26, 2017

mailmandan said:

So some more jackpot questions:

Do you decide to abstain, or does the Holy Spirit force you to abstain?

What if you decide against the sanctification process, reject it, and go back into living in worldliness? Is that salvation? Does that justification (which you say saves you) preclude the requirement of sanctification?

Chris1975 · May 26, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

^ well spotted.

Johnny_B · May 26, 2017

Chris1975 said:

Amen!!! We have a responsibility in our sanctification, why? "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." It's our sanctification, this part our salvation, it's not our salvation, we will be fully sanctified as well as fully saved the we receive our blessed our our glorified bodies. We are in the process of sanctification here on earth, this is what we are responsible for in working with God in fear and trembling, it's that part of salvation that we are work out, not working for, big difference.

When you are married and are having problems you work them out, you can work for it because you are already married, the same applies here, we are already saved, so we can not work for, but we can work it out. What do you think we are called the bride or children, these are unbreakable bonds, yes you can get a divorce, but you are still one with her/him because let not man put asunder what God has put together, you may be legally divorced, but spiritually you are still married. Children are your children forever, they may do something that you disapprove of but, that does not end the relationship of shared DNA, that's forever as well. Once you've been united to Christ there is nothing that can separate you from the love of god that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Here's a list of thing that can not separate you from that love.

Romans 8:37-39 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I've showed that to people and they will yes nothing can separate us, but we can give it up or forfeit it and I point them to "nor anything else in all creation". Then I ask them are you not anything else in all creation? When it say nothing, it means nothing and God knew people would still try to exalt themselves about all things, so he put, "anything else in all creation". All of it is all based on a man exalted salvation, weather losing it, your faith saves you, your faith keeps you saved, I repent then God gives me grace or whatever else exalts man over God.

We have full responsibility in our sanctification process, we have full reliability for our salvation on Christ because of His imputed righteousness. Because as I mentioned, the standard is to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect and we all fail every second of our lives, so no one could be saved, but for the grace of God in Christ. Any type of salvation by any type of self maintenance are works of the Law, no longer of grace be done. I mean lest call it what it is, sin, falling short of the glory of God and we can never attain to His glory, so we always fall short of salvation, unless it is all by His grace, because of to depends on us, we forever fall short. Being saved is not God making us better, now we can reach the glory of God and if we keep it we are saved, if we do not we lose it, no, we are always short of His glory or Hid perfection and can never reach it. Anything else is a god of your own understanding and not the God of creation.

Ahwatukee · May 26, 2017

mailmandan said:

Ongoing sanctification, which is the process of being made holy, requires the believer to continue in faith. If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he is no longer being transformed into the Lord's image.

It is important to understand the difference between someone who is in agreement with God about their sin and who has a repentant heart. The person who has gone back into living according to the sinful nature, partying, drugs, sexual immorality, etc., etc., is not going to God for forgiveness. He is no longer in step with the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about the person who is in Christ who is struggling with their sins, but the person who has stopped struggling and has gone back to living as he did prior to receiving Christ.

Let me give you one example from the seven churches:

"But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, the one who is victorious will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

What happens if to those who fit the description above, but who do not overcome? Their garments remain soiled and the promise is reversed i.e. I will blot out your names out of the book of life, I will not confess your name before My Father and His angels.

All that I am saying is that continued faith is necessary for salvation, which is what scripture is saying. We are not just saved no matter what we do. It requires faith on our part.

FranC · May 26, 2017

Johnny_B said:

What Grace777 and mailmandan said are true.

When people believe they can keep their salvation by their own maintenance, it is because they have a low view of sin, they think sin is what you do, when it's what you do, what you think of doing and what they are. So no one can stay saved, without confessing every second, because the standard is to be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect, so we fail every second that we live. That is why it is Christ's perfection that is imputed to us, that we can be saved and stay saved. Not by any works of righteousness, so that we can boast or I'm saved because of my faith and I'm keeping it, noting we do saves us or keeps us saved.

Once the Spirit has infused us into Christ we can not unfuse us from Christ, it is called our union with Christ, the adoption, sealing of the Spirit, our justification. Roman law as USA law, if you adopt a child, in Rome you could also adopt adults. You have to leave them an inheritance, you can write off your own children, as the Father did with Christ, so that we could be adopted. Your nature children can not do anything to get part of your inheritance if you do not leave them anything, but an adopted child can and will get it because of the law. The whole world may be children of God, because he created all, but they do not have a right to an inheritance if He so choses not to leave them one, but we as adopted children have every right too an inheritance, which is our blessed hope our glorified bodies.

We are so close to Christ that when Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus said to him Saul, Saul why are you persecute me? Jesus did not say, Saul, Saul why are you persecuting my Church. We are so bonded with Christ that if we have illicit sex, we have joined Christ to that person as will as we are joined to them. There is something very special and mythical for leak of a better term. When two people have sex, they become one, weather married or not II Corinthians 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

Once you are joined to Christ you are joined together with Him for ever, in the same way that once you have sex with someone you are one for as long as you live, maybe longer I don't know. There is a reason why all of our salvation is like a near eastern marriage, the father choses the bride for the son, as Abraham did for Isaac. The son does not know when he is going to go get his bride as jesus do not know when He will come for His bride, only the Father knows. And just as the two become one in a marriage, so we become one with Christ in our union with Him, when the father make us alive in Him and raises us with Christ and seats us in heavenly places. There is another thing, why would the Father see us in heavenly palaces if two minutes before I die I lose my salvation? It can not happen or the Father would not say by the Spirit that He set us in heaven already.

So no one could be saved if it depended on us, yes Jesus said lots of things that are demands to maintain a right standing before the Father, He did not say them because He thought you could keep them, He said them to the Jews so they could see that they could not keep them and rely on His grace, not their works. Jesus said many things that are needed to keep ones salvation if you are keeping your salvation by works of the Law. The Law is the foundation of Christ, to bring us to the knowledge of sin Romans 3:19-20, once we see that we could never keep the Law top maintain our salvation, we rely on His grace to keep us saved.

How are you so sure they're right JohnnyB???

What did the Christian Church believe before Luther and before Calvin??

Especially Calvin.

Give us a few paragraphs on THAT.

Thanks.

Grace777x70 · May 26, 2017

FranC said:

Ok.....I will try your way for a minute and let's see what kind of a theological mess we can end up with.

Jesus said to go present ourselves to the priest when we are healed? Do we do that today?

Jesus also told the rich ruler to inherit eternal life - keep the law of Moses. Is that what we do today? Of course not. In the "New Covenant" - here is what we tell people.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Who is being talked to is important or else we end up with a works-based / works-righteousness false doctrine that denies the work of Christ and makes ourselves the savior. Jesus Himself is the Savior.

FranC · May 26, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Ongoing sanctification, which is the process of being made holy, requires the believer to continue in faith. If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he is no longer being transformed into the Lord's image.

It is important to understand the difference between someone who is in agreement with God about their sin and who has a repentant heart. The person who has gone back into living according to the sinful nature, partying, drugs, sexual immorality, etc., etc., is not going to God for forgiveness. He is no longer in step with the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about the person who is in Christ who is struggling with their sins, but the person who has stopped struggling and has gone back to living as he did prior to receiving Christ.

Let me give you one example from the seven churches:

"But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, the one who is victorious will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

What happens if to those who fit the description above, but who do not overcome? Their garments remain soiled and the promise is reversed i.e. I will blot out your names out of the book of life, I will not confess your name before My Father and His angels.

All that I am saying is that continued faith is necessary for salvation, which is what scripture is saying. We are not just saved no matter what we do. It requires faith on our part.

Well A,

Looks like we agree on something!!

FranC · May 26, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

My throad is DRY.

Grace, you LOVE Greek.

What does B ELIEVE mean in Greek?

Please give the entire meaning...

What does it mean to BELIEVE in Christ.
Come on, I've taught this to 13 year olds --- I'm sure you can do this.

Chris1975 · May 26, 2017

Johnny_B said:

Amen!!! We have a responsibility in our sanctification, why? "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." It's our sanctification, this part our salvation, it's not our salvation, we will be fully sanctified as well as fully saved the we receive our blessed our our glorified bodies. We are in the process of sanctification here on earth, this is what we are responsible for in working with God in fear and trembling, it's that part of salvation that we are work out, not working for, big difference.

When you are married and are having problems you work them out, you can work for it because you are already married, the same applies here, we are already saved, so we can not work for, but we can work it out. What do you think we are called the bride or children, these are unbreakable bonds, yes you can get a divorce, but you are still one with her/him because let not man put asunder what God has put together, you may be legally divorced, but spiritually you are still married. Children are your children forever, they may do something that you disapprove of but, that does not end the relationship of shared DNA, that's forever as well. Once you've been united to Christ there is nothing that can separate you from the love of god that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Here's a list of thing that can not separate you from that love.

Romans 8:37-39 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I've showed that to people and they will yes nothing can separate us, but we can give it up or forfeit it and I point them to "nor anything else in all creation". Then I ask them are you not anything else in all creation? When it say nothing, it means nothing and God knew people would still try to exalt themselves about all things, so he put, "anything else in all creation". All of it is all based on a man exalted salvation, weather losing it, your faith saves you, your faith keeps you saved, I repent then God gives me grace or whatever else exalts man over God.

We have full responsibility in our sanctification process, we have full reliability for our salvation on Christ because of His imputed righteousness. Because as I mentioned, the standard is to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect and we all fail every second of our lives, so no one could be saved, but for the grace of God in Christ. Any type of salvation by any type of self maintenance are works of the Law, no longer of grace be done. I mean lest call it what it is, sin, falling short of the glory of God and we can never attain to His glory, so we always fall short of salvation, unless it is all by His grace, because of to depends on us, we forever fall short. Being saved is not God making us better, now we can reach the glory of God and if we keep it we are saved, if we do not we lose it, no, we are always short of His glory or Hid perfection and can never reach it. Anything else is a god of your own understanding and not the God of creation.

Heb 12v14 (NASB)
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God;

PURSUE (who does this?)......Sanctification (holiness)......without which no one will see the Lord.

So if you do not pursue it.....(which is your choice post conversion).......can such a person be saved?

You see it is God's will that we PURSUE sanctification. He creates a desire in us to do so if we are living in faith. It's our CHOICE as to whether to live according to the flesh or the spirit. And those who live according to the flesh (choose to do so) will perish. And this means hell.

FranC · May 26, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

The "THEOLOGICAL MESS" happens when you try to change what JESUS taught for His entire ministry.

Which is what we are TO BE
and what we are TO DO

Or the unproductive branches will be CUT OFF.

He did REQUIRE WORKS.

I'm not listing anymore verses for you. You know the bible well, maybe you could re-read it with an open mind?

FranC · May 26, 2017

Johnny_B said:

Amen!!! We have a responsibility in our sanctification, why? "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." It's our sanctification, this part our salvation, it's not our salvation, we will be fully sanctified as well as fully saved the we receive our blessed our our glorified bodies. We are in the process of sanctification here on earth, this is what we are responsible for in working with God in fear and trembling, it's that part of salvation that we are work out, not working for, big difference.

When you are married and are having problems you work them out, you can work for it because you are already married, the same applies here, we are already saved, so we can not work for, but we can work it out. What do you think we are called the bride or children, these are unbreakable bonds, yes you can get a divorce, but you are still one with her/him because let not man put asunder what God has put together, you may be legally divorced, but spiritually you are still married. Children are your children forever, they may do something that you disapprove of but, that does not end the relationship of shared DNA, that's forever as well. Once you've been united to Christ there is nothing that can separate you from the love of god that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Here's a list of thing that can not separate you from that love.

Romans 8:37-39 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I've showed that to people and they will yes nothing can separate us, but we can give it up or forfeit it and I point them to "nor anything else in all creation". Then I ask them are you not anything else in all creation? When it say nothing, it means nothing and God knew people would still try to exalt themselves about all things, so he put, "anything else in all creation". All of it is all based on a man exalted salvation, weather losing it, your faith saves you, your faith keeps you saved, I repent then God gives me grace or whatever else exalts man over God.

We have full responsibility in our sanctification process, we have full reliability for our salvation on Christ because of His imputed righteousness. Because as I mentioned, the standard is to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect and we all fail every second of our lives, so no one could be saved, but for the grace of God in Christ. Any type of salvation by any type of self maintenance are works of the Law, no longer of grace be done. I mean lest call it what it is, sin, falling short of the glory of God and we can never attain to His glory, so we always fall short of salvation, unless it is all by His grace, because of to depends on us, we forever fall short. Being saved is not God making us better, now we can reach the glory of God and if we keep it we are saved, if we do not we lose it, no, we are always short of His glory or Hid perfection and can never reach it. Anything else is a god of your own understanding and not the God of creation.

Could you cut this down to 25 words or less? That's all it takes, you know.
I think that maybe you MAY be right according to the bible I'm reading and theological concepts.

But I've already done my reading for the day...

Ahwatukee · May 26, 2017

mailmandan said:

I agree with the above.

I don't agree with the above and that because they are referred to branches, meaning that they are believers who produce no fruit. He tells his disciples and us, that we need to remain in him. If a believer turns back to willfully living according to the the sinful nature they are not remaining in Christ. In the same way, James 5:18-19 refers to those he is speaking to as "brothers" which would mean that that are true believers would have wandered from the truth. If someone turns them back from that state, they will hide a multitude of sins and save that soul from death.

Grace777x70 · May 26, 2017

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too and it is not "cheap" as some say it to be - it cost our Lord His life and blood to obtain our eternal redemption.

We believe which means to "rely on, trust in" the Lord Jesus Christ when we hear the message of Him.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

FranC · May 26, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

I agree with the above.

I don't agree with the above and that because they are referred to branches, meaning that they are believers who produce no fruit. He tells his disciples and us, that we need to remain in him. If a believer turns back to willfully living according to the the sinful nature they are not remaining in Christ. In the same way, James 5:18-19 refers to those he is speaking to as "brothers" which would mean that that are true believers would have wandered from the truth. If someone turns them back from that state, they will hide a multitude of sins and save that soul from death.

FranC · May 26, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Grace,

Please stop posting this. It's tiring.
I know I don't have to read it but how about this:

Do you REALLY BELEIVE that those who are on this here forum believe only with the mind?

So is this the answer you're giving me regarding BELIEVING??

Please try again.
You're almost there.

I know you can't really post it because it'll go against everything you "teach".
As if any one of us here can teach anything, but only "share."
That includes me.

I'm only presenting what the bible says.

mj007 · May 26, 2017

Everything branches from love, the one thing, which no one particularly wants to talk about or focus on or practise much in their discussion or debate about what the truth is. I mean for example, when discussion and debate doesn't branch from love, but from calculating what might be right, according to how your mind processes and translates things, then it usually leads to no one really learning anything from each other. However, love brought into discussion whether by intention or by focus, lifts everyone up, and there is more learned simply from that experience of being uplifted than from the words written in a mathematical form, there is something underneath/behind words that only love can see.

Johnny_B · May 26, 2017

Chris1975 said:

You explained my answer, that is the whole point if we are truly saved by His grace we do these thing naturally, not forced as if we don't do them we are not saved, they are the natural outcome of saving grace, it's not a work of the Law. They are works that God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. It is still God, He prepared them before we were saved for us to walk in, not work in them.

I think where we are differing is that I see it as all God's work that we walk in and you see it as our work that we must do to stay saved, if I'm wrong I'm sorry. Maybe you can explain it better. It's like where Peter says "be you holy, for the Lord is holy" many see that as, I must be holy because the Lord is holy. Where others see it, I am holy because the Lord is holy. Am I explaining myself to where you are understanding? Because I know that my explanation are not the best.

Chris1975 · May 26, 2017

mailmandan said:

The above quote is error. Nowhere does the bible say self attached branches. This is fictional imagination. Here is what the bible says:

Romans 11
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them <who does the grafting in?>, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Clear enough?

Grace777x70 · May 26, 2017

We are saved by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ which is in us in our new creation. We are now learning how to walk by the spirit - which is our spirit in union with Christ by the Holy Spirit ( whom Jesus said would be in us forever - John 14:16 ).

Romans 5:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

The problem with those that have the false belief that Christians lose their salvation is because of not understanding the new creation in Christ.

Not understanding the "union" we have with the Lord.

Not understanding spiritual circumcision where the body of flesh is "cut away" from the inner man in Christ that is created in righteousness and holiness. Col. 2:11 & Eph. 4:24

All of these lead us to a false belief system of works in some form or other in order to maintain our righteousness and in effect we are denying the grace of God that is needed to manifest transformation that brings the love and grace of God to others.

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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