Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

garee · May 28, 2017

Falling away from the faith of Christ as the work of Christ that is given to us a free non retunrable "gift" is what Christians do every time they deny the work of Christ's faith, the salvation of our souls

Its just imposible to fall away from His own work, He cannot deny he has paid the full wage of our sin . If we are dead with Him we will (not maybe) also will live with him. His promises are yes and never no, or I changed my mind.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not (no faith that comes from hearing God), yet he abideth "faithful": he cannot (impossible) "deny" himself.

The question is what if some do not beleive,( have faith that comes from hearing God) will their unbeleif (no faith) make the faith of God, as the work of God without effect so that men might justify thier own selves (self righteousness)?

mailmandan · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

Why would I love a church that perverts the gospel of Christ, has "added" to God's Word and leads people astray? What is there to love about that? Now with that being said, this does not mean that I hate people who attend the Roman Catholic church.

I do love my brethren.

In general, I don't consider most Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ, but that still does not mean that I hate them. I know what Catholicism teaches and I also know what most Catholics believe.

Sure I know how I feel, but apparently you don't truly know.

So where did I say that I hate Roman Catholics in that discussion? I didn't. You act like I'm supposed to embrace EVERYONE as my brother or sister in Christ, regardless of whether or not they are genuine believers and also embrace false teachings of various false religions.

We are to love the brethren and we are to also love our enemies, but we are not to embrace false teachings.

mailmandan · May 28, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

It is abundantly clear that the Roman Catholic Church belief system is a major perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is based on a works-based false gospel.

I do believe within that false man-made denomination there are legitimate Christians that are born of the Spirit of God and they are our brethren.

This does not mean that we stop preaching and teaching the true gospel of Christ. Speak the truth and the light of Christ will dispel the darkness that is in this false religion.

Amen! Well said brother!

FranC · May 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

YOU said you don't consider Catholics your brothers in Christ.
"Who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ"

And also, how do YOU know who is a geniune Christian?
How could I be sure YOU are a genuine Christian?

Pride and Ego.
Rampant on this thread.

And remember to thank God for the Catholic Church every now and then for keepting the faith YOU know pure from heresies back in the early
centuries.

FranC · May 28, 2017

garee said:

Falling away from the faith of Christ as the work of Christ that is given to us a free non retunrable "gift" is what Christians do every time they deny the work of Christ's faith, the salvation of our souls

Its just imposible to fall away from His own work, He cannot deny he has paid the full wage of our sin . If we are dead with Him we will (not maybe) also will live with him. His promises are yes and never no, or I changed my mind.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not (no faith that comes from hearing God), yet he abideth "faithful": he cannot (impossible) "deny" himself.

The question is what if some do not beleive,( have faith that comes from hearing God) will their unbeleif (no faith) make the faith of God, as the work of God without effect so that men might justify thier own selves (self righteousness)?

G

Why don't you go and study 2 Timothy 2:12 and 13.

Does it seem to you that it might be contradictory??

Do you ever wonder why?

It's because YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

Please try to understand it. God is not the author of confusion.

FranC · May 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

Let's post 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

"Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,

in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . "

And now a question:

I'm sure you agree that persons were also saved in the O.T. by virtue of their faith.
(Hebrews 11)

SO... IF people were saved in the O.T. ANYWAY,

WHY did Jesus have to die on the cross???

Also, I hope you noticed that the scripture you posted says that the believe must HOLD FIRM the word taught.
So many verses that prove we must HOLD ON or become lost as before...

but some just don't see it.

mailmandan · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

You act like I'm supposed to embrace Roman Catholics (in general) as my brothers and sisters in Christ when in general, Roman Catholics embrace the false gospel and false teachings of Roman Catholicism. That's why I said, "who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ?" I've had many discussions with multiple Roman Catholics over the years who embrace the false teachings of Roman Catholicism, but once in a while, I come across Roman Catholics who accept the truth IN SPITE of what Roman Catholicism teaches.

A genuine Christian has placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and is not trusting in works for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). It doesn't take long on this forum to figure out who trusts in Christ alone for salvation and who trusts in works.

There is nothing prideful about knowing that you believe in Christ and you know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God!

Grace777x70 · May 28, 2017

In 1 Cor. 15:2 - the Greek word used for "if" also means "since".

Classical Greek usage

This conditional particle occurs in all kinds of ancient literature of every period. It has a variety of functions that are determined especially by the mood and tense of the verb, or by the particle’s relationship to other words in the sentence.

Within such flexible surroundings the word still retains its basic meaning of “if” or “since.” The multiple functions stem from this base.

New Testament Usage

The most ordinary use of [FONT="Gentium" !important]ei[/FONT] is with the indicative mood. Under that condition [FONT="Gentium" !important]ei[/FONT] can mean “if” with the assumption that what is being asserted is actually true: “If thou be the Son of God . .

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

1 Cor. 15:2 - "I preached to you" is in the indicative mood where "if" or "since" is used.

FranC · May 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

I guess Calvin knew a Whole lot more about Christianity than the early christians --- of whom Ignatius of Antioch was one.
He learned from John the Aposlte.

I guess Calvin knew more than John the Apostle too.

Who was taught by Jesus.

I guess Calvin knew more than Jesus too.

FranC · May 28, 2017

mailmandan · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

More Roman Catholic logic. Do you believe in the false doctrine of "transubstantiation" and "infant baptism?" I certainly don't. Judas Iscariot learned from Jesus Himself and he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). *Now I'm not comparing Ignatius to Judas Iscariot, but I'm just saying that the early church fathers were not infallible (neither were their writings) and just because they were alive around the time of the apostles does not mean that everything they taught must be right.

Grace777x70 · May 28, 2017

We must always remember that the word "saved" has 2 aspects to it in scripture. The word "saved" means "wholeness, peace, preserve, make well, rescue".

1) Being saved for eternity because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection in which we believe the message of Christ and Christ becomes one spirit with our spirit by the Holy Spirit that comes in us forever - like Jesus said in John 14:16.

2) Then there is the aspect of being saved from things in this life. We know that Jesus said He gives us His peace - this is our inheritance for us being in the kingdom of God.

If we in our minds refuse to believe in this peace when trouble comes - we will not be "saved" from the turmoil and distress that the peace of Jesus would give us.

We are not inheriting the kingdom of God that belongs to us that are in Christ and that He is in us.

Does this mean we go to hell now or that we get kicked out of Christ for eternity. Of course not - it's complete foolishness.

Unfortunately works-based/ works-righteousness belief systems see the word "saved" and immediately their minds default to being kicked out of Christ and being eternally separated from the Lord.

This will never happen to true Christians that are sealed forever by the Holy Spirit when they believed in Christ. He will be faithful to all of us and we can trust in Him.

reneweddaybyday · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

"was" is the proper word because we are speaking of the one who wandered. Not the 99 who did not wander.

FranC said:

I look at it more from the perspective of the shepherd. Why would the shepherd leave the 99 to search for the one if the one did not belong to him? If the one did not belong to the shepherd, the shepherd would never have left the 99 to search for it.

FranC said:

Your insistence that the parable in Luke 15 is like the believer losing his/her salvation when they wander does not jive with what we know from John 10.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If the sheep did not recognize the voice, it would have fled. Sheep will not follow a stranger. The fact that the sheep in Luke 15 responded to the voice of the shepherd, laid quietly on his shoulder to be led back is indicative of the sheep still belonging to the shepherd.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The sheep know the voice of the shepherd he/she belongs to.

John 10:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

I do not believe Luke 15 is a good example to use in your portrayal of the believer losing his/her salvation. John 10 quashes that misunderstanding of Luke 15.

reneweddaybyday · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

Did you read the statement in my post to Sagart —

reneweddaybyday said:

My question relates to whether the full inheritance is more of the same.

Using your example of owning a house, there is a down payment. In the US, the down payment is made in cash and the balance of the amount is paid in cash (the same thing as the down payment). We don’t use cash for the down payment and then use some other commodity for the balance.

That is my question. Is the full inheritance more of the same of which we have already received?

Another point ... for every web search you find which indicates God's guarantee is subject to the believer's action, I can counter with a web search which indicates God's guarantee is absolute and it does not rest on the frailty of the human.

That is why I wanted to leave that issue aside and focus on the word arrabōn and its meaning in the Greek. Sagart appears to enjoy researching the meaning of Scripture in the Greek.

followjesus · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

thats exactly the frustration ive always had with the gog doctrine.

the idea that paul gives light to somehow understand Jesus, when the truth is, paul cant be understood without first accepting the gospel because He is speaking from the Gospel. when He says " follow the spirit, or walk in the spirit" its because He understood "Jesus words are spirit and life" if we skip that part its why people dont understand what "walking in the spirit even means.

or when paul is saying " you must crucify the flesh" Hes saying it on a foundation of Jesus saying " you must lay down yourself, pick up your cross and follow me."

when paul is talking about anything really, its based on the foundation of the only Gospel." Grace and truth " its the same with all the apostles john says walk in the light" " walk in the truth" Jesus established what those things are in the gospel.

peter says " obey the truth" Jesus established that is the word of God He gave in the gospel"

paul is misunderstood, He had awesome revelation from the prophets and law, and always made clear that its all aboput the gospel, not that He created a different Gospel, rather he was giving further revelation ointo the gospel. Pauls gospel is patterned upon Jesus . Grace and truth its why in the beginning of His epistles its explainations of Grace, and in the remainder its all how were to actually live, and do the things Jesus taught. paul explains His teaching and where it came from

acts 26:20-23 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

when Paul is read we should always consider the things he said like this

1 timothy 6:3-5 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

paul always provided safeguards so that no one thought " its all about what paul said" or " Jesus words arent for christians" or Jesus taught the law of moses" or " i follow paul rather than Christ" the idea that we have to come through paul, is backwards, we have to remain in Jesus, and the Gospel of Gods Kingdom, to understand those who were speaking before about Him, or after about Him. i too love paul, But Jesus is the Lord alone, so His words should be the words of the Lord. paul would never say the things Jesus said about His words " Light, spirit Life, the rock of foundation, freedom from sin, the words that came from God in Heaven, the judge of all men. he says all of these things about His words. paul is speaking from that understanding.

God bless you sister

BillG · May 28, 2017

Whats gog doctrine?

followjesus · May 28, 2017

garee said:

Before the cross Jesus said

john 17:3-8 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; they and have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me"

the finished work of the cross is the death of jesus the fulfillment of the sacrificial system of atonement. but the things Jesus said are Life, spirit, truth, a rock on which to build, freedom from sin that put him on the cross.

if we only accept the cross and reject His doctrine, its equivalent to isreal only accepting what God said of atonement, and disregarding the commandments, the Law, the ordinances ect. we have the law of the spirit of life that sets us free from the law of sin and death. its what Jesus said v what moses said. its what is against us , v what is for us. the isrealites didnt just stand there with an animal for sacrifice, they came on the day of atonement with that, but the rest of the year they were meant to obey the Lords word, Just like christians are to obey Jesus word, having the sacrifice already provided. the gospel is as much what Jesus said, as it is His death and resurrection which is as important as what He said, the two arent contrary, they go together.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, ( john 8:31-34) and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

when we believe Hos death, resurrection, and all he said we are growing in the will of God. the gospel according to matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they contain the teachings of Jesus, and the account of His death and resurrection. all of those things are the gospel.

PennEd · May 28, 2017

FranC said:

Hi Fran. I don't think I was addressing anybody in particular. Sorry if it came off that way.

I think your post here has it backwards though.

Fruit, AS DEFINED BY SCRIPTURE, produces works (following the Lord's instructions).Not the other way around.

Virtually ALL religions have justification and sanctification backwards as well. True Christianity says you are JUSTIFIED by Christ FIRST, then sanctified to do good works through Him.

Other religions say you need to be sanctified First to achieve justification. This is clearly of the wide path to destruction.

Have a blessed weekend everybody! Peace, love, and joy in His Name!

followjesus · May 28, 2017

BillG said:

Grace without truth.

the modern day G ospel O f G race. just easier to type gog. ( its not a reference to gog and maggog )

its this

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

and really this in modern wrapper

Genesis 3:Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Dont misunderstand me, there are also those who preach about grace that do it properly, so that omission of the gospel isnt necassary, but there are many more who use the tr=erm grace, to omit the Word of God.

BillG · May 28, 2017

followjesus said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Maybe I am thick or naive or too soft with people.

Does the Jude verse above relate back to what Paul was addressing at the end of Romans 5 to the beginning of Romans 6?

Or is it people just using grace to sin full stop with no regard to Jesus but using Jesus as an easy meal ticket and have not really placed saving faith in Jesus.

Were the people Paul addressed in Romans such people as in Jude or people who believed but did not understand what grace meant?

How on earth can one omit the word of God full stop?

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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