Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
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Hi Grace,
must be leaving here.
Just picked a post of yours at random.
Just two things:
1. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be with us forever. Did He mean ONE PARTICULAR PERSON, OR did He mean that the Holy Spirit would be with us as a CHURCH forever? Can you be sure what He meant?
Anyway, yes, the Holy Spirit is with us for as long as we want Him to. If we abandon God that is denying the Holy Spirit and going back into the world. Can the Holy Spirit and the world live together?
2. For those reading along who may be new Christians, could we come to an Agreement?
We both agree that living a holy life is what a Christian does. I believe we are both doing our best and that's all we could do.
Now, WHATEVER THE REASON MAY BE, for this, could you simply answer this:
Do we do good works because we WANT to
Do we do good works because we are required to
And please don't say we do them because we're saved first and so we want to. Of course. That's a given. That's circular reasoning.
Then I'll be on my way.
must be leaving here.
Just picked a post of yours at random.
Just two things:
1. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be with us forever. Did He mean ONE PARTICULAR PERSON, OR did He mean that the Holy Spirit would be with us as a CHURCH forever? Can you be sure what He meant?
Anyway, yes, the Holy Spirit is with us for as long as we want Him to. If we abandon God that is denying the Holy Spirit and going back into the world. Can the Holy Spirit and the world live together?
2. For those reading along who may be new Christians, could we come to an Agreement?
We both agree that living a holy life is what a Christian does. I believe we are both doing our best and that's all we could do.
Now, WHATEVER THE REASON MAY BE, for this, could you simply answer this:
Do we do good works because we WANT to
Do we do good works because we are required to
And please don't say we do them because we're saved first and so we want to. Of course. That's a given. That's circular reasoning.
Then I'll be on my way.
The answer is always the very same truth. Good works that originate from our new creation in Christ is simply His life being expressed.
We do good works because it is a fruit of the life of Christ in us. Good works are His fruit being manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see our loving Father's love and grace towards them. It's the way of the kingdom.
No works can save us nor keep us saved. That is a perversion of the gospel of Christ and it creates a works-based religion that nullifies the grace of God that is in Christ from operating like it was meant to.
If we preach Christ Himself and Him crucified - then Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what is already in them in the new creation - joined as one spirit with the Lord forever.
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Here's my entire post to which you are referring. You should Always post the entire statement and not just what YOU want to address...
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So what are you saying?
Jesus comes looking for you, grabs you, and brings you back into the fold? By force? Or do you have to WANT to go back?
Do we have free will or not after becoming saved?
Parables were told for a reason. I'm sorry I don't have time, and will have to resort to soemthing I don't like to do, a link.
It will explain very well what this parable means.
Jesus is Always looking for the lost. BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK.
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with. I like Romans 3:23. There is much joy in heaven over one lost sinner.
We need to stop putting what WE want into parables and read what JESUS MEANT.
We are FREE to wander off and NEVER GO Back, IF THAT IS WHAT WE WANT.
We were saved by our free will to WANT to be saved, we did NOT lose this free will AFTER we were saved.
We can wander off whenever we WANT to. Jesus Waits for us to return (just like the Father in the Prodigal Son) But we will never be FORCED to return.
You like GotQuestions:
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Patterns of Consistency in the parables
1) The main character possesses something valuable and does not want to lose it.
2) The main character rejoices in the finding of the lost thing, but does not rejoice alone.
3) The main character (God) expresses care in either the looking or the handling of that which was lost.
4) Each thing that was lost has a personal value, not just a monetary value: shepherds care for their sheep, women cherish their bridal jewelry, and a father loves his son.
Incidentally, this first illustration of the shepherd caring the sheep on his shoulders was the original figure used to identify Christians before people began identifying Christianity with crosses. In these parables Jesus paints with words a beautiful picture of God’s grace in His desire to see the lost return to Him. Men seek honor and avoid shame; God seeks to glorify Himself through us His sheep, His sons and daughters. Despite having ninety-nine other sheep, despite the sinful rebellion of His lost sheep, God joyfully receives it back, just as He does when we repent and return to Him.
https://www.gotquestions.org/parable...heep-coin.html
It's really interesting to me how we put our own idea into everything we read, instead of just reading it clearly.
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So what you are questioning is this statement:
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with
The word "was" should have been "were".
There is some question as to whether or not the sheep in the fold were saved.
Personally, I think they were. I believe in loss of salvation, so that would be natural, no? Why would I say soemting against what I believe???
The sheep was saved, he became lost, and Jesus went to look for him, and he went back VOLUNTARILY.
Some theologians believe the sheep in the fold were NOT SAVED. These would be the ones who beieve in OSAS b ecause they sheep would NEVER HAVE LEFT THE FOLD IF it WAS SAVED.
I hope you understand this.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I just got two concepts mixed up, but have NO DOUBT.
A SAVED PERSON COULD BECOME LOST,
JESUS WILL ALWAYS LOOK FOR US AND WAIT FOR US.
BUT WE HAVE TO WANT TO GO BACK WILLINGLY. Just like the first time.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
So what are you saying?
Jesus comes looking for you, grabs you, and brings you back into the fold? By force? Or do you have to WANT to go back?
Do we have free will or not after becoming saved?
Parables were told for a reason. I'm sorry I don't have time, and will have to resort to soemthing I don't like to do, a link.
It will explain very well what this parable means.
Jesus is Always looking for the lost. BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK.
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with. I like Romans 3:23. There is much joy in heaven over one lost sinner.
We need to stop putting what WE want into parables and read what JESUS MEANT.
We are FREE to wander off and NEVER GO Back, IF THAT IS WHAT WE WANT.
We were saved by our free will to WANT to be saved, we did NOT lose this free will AFTER we were saved.
We can wander off whenever we WANT to. Jesus Waits for us to return (just like the Father in the Prodigal Son) But we will never be FORCED to return.
You like GotQuestions:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patterns of Consistency in the parables
1) The main character possesses something valuable and does not want to lose it.
2) The main character rejoices in the finding of the lost thing, but does not rejoice alone.
3) The main character (God) expresses care in either the looking or the handling of that which was lost.
4) Each thing that was lost has a personal value, not just a monetary value: shepherds care for their sheep, women cherish their bridal jewelry, and a father loves his son.
Incidentally, this first illustration of the shepherd caring the sheep on his shoulders was the original figure used to identify Christians before people began identifying Christianity with crosses. In these parables Jesus paints with words a beautiful picture of God’s grace in His desire to see the lost return to Him. Men seek honor and avoid shame; God seeks to glorify Himself through us His sheep, His sons and daughters. Despite having ninety-nine other sheep, despite the sinful rebellion of His lost sheep, God joyfully receives it back, just as He does when we repent and return to Him.
https://www.gotquestions.org/parable...heep-coin.html
It's really interesting to me how we put our own idea into everything we read, instead of just reading it clearly.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
So what you are questioning is this statement:
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with
The word "was" should have been "were".
There is some question as to whether or not the sheep in the fold were saved.
Personally, I think they were. I believe in loss of salvation, so that would be natural, no? Why would I say soemting against what I believe???
The sheep was saved, he became lost, and Jesus went to look for him, and he went back VOLUNTARILY.
Some theologians believe the sheep in the fold were NOT SAVED. These would be the ones who beieve in OSAS b ecause they sheep would NEVER HAVE LEFT THE FOLD IF it WAS SAVED.
I hope you understand this.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I just got two concepts mixed up, but have NO DOUBT.
A SAVED PERSON COULD BECOME LOST,
JESUS WILL ALWAYS LOOK FOR US AND WAIT FOR US.
BUT WE HAVE TO WANT TO GO BACK WILLINGLY. Just like the first time.
Wow.
This gets into the Whole Jesus vs. Paul stuff.
So we needed Paul to explain what Jesus meant!
Great.
Anyway, I can't get into this.
Paul introduced Grace and it was a good thing,
but man sure did mess it up!
Jesus knew EXACTLY what He was talking about and made no mistakes in His statements.
I love Paul too, BTW.
This gets into the Whole Jesus vs. Paul stuff.
So we needed Paul to explain what Jesus meant!
Great.
Anyway, I can't get into this.
Paul introduced Grace and it was a good thing,
but man sure did mess it up!
Jesus knew EXACTLY what He was talking about and made no mistakes in His statements.
I love Paul too, BTW.
RDBD
The seal is indeed often spoken of on these threads. I've answered to it many times. My mouth is dry.
The down payment is another concept that is taken out of how Paul meant it.
Do you own a house? Did you put a down payment on it? Do you pay your mortgage every month?
Are you sure you're GOING TO KEEP PAYING IT FOREVER untill the house it yours?
No. You cannot be sure. And the house (heaven) will not be yours till ALL payments are made.
I thought I'd post something from the net. Maybe that will be understood better...
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The Holy Spirit as an Earnest or Seal
Assurance of Salvation or Once Saved, Always Saved?
In 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13,14; Rom. 8:16 Paul uses expressions that refer to various ways that a product or act may be guaranteed to be genuine or authentic.
A seal was used as proof that a document or law was officially ratified and therefore genuine (this was especially common in Paul's day, but is still done sometimes today).
Likewise, an earnest was a sort of down payment or partial payment. given as assurance of intent to pay other money. Today, when a buyer purchases a house, he may initially pay a small part of the total price as a pledge of his sincere or "earnest" intent to purchase. The amount initially given becomes assurance that the rest will come later.
Likewise, under the gospel Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. This is not a literal or personal embodiment of the Spirit in our bodies like our own spirits inhabit our bodies. Rather, the Spirit is said to dwell in us even as the Father and Son are said to dwell in us (John 17:20,21; 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 2 Corinthians 6:16-18).
This is an expression for the unity or fellowship we have with God and all the blessings we have as a result of that fellowship, in contrast to the alienation we have from God when we are in sin.
Paul's point is that the fellowship men have with Deity (the Holy Spirit, in particular) is just a down payment or partial installment assuring us that much greater blessings will come later when we enter into the final reward in eternity.
Some people mistakenly use such passages to claim that, since we have the Holy Spirit as a "guarantee," we cannot lose salvation - "once saved always saved."
However, the "earnest" shows good intention on God's part; but that in no way guarantees the faithfulness of the humans in keeping our part of the agreement. It is not uncommon, in human transactions, for a party to back out of a purchase or violate a contract after earnest money has been paid.
The point here is that God will not back out, if we keep our part of the agreement. But if we humans do not keep our part of the covenant, God is surely not required to provide us eternal life. He can and will then withdraw His earnest, and we lose our reward.
For passages proving a child of God can so sin as to be lost, see John 15:1-6; Acts 8:12-24; Romans 6:12-18; 8:12-17; Galatians 5:1-4; 6:7-9; 1 Corinthians 9:25-10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 5:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 3:6,11-14; 4:9,11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 1:8-11; 2:20-22
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The above answers both how the "seal of the Holy Spirit" functions and how this "earnest" is only a down payment and not a GUARANTEE.
The seal is indeed often spoken of on these threads. I've answered to it many times. My mouth is dry.
The down payment is another concept that is taken out of how Paul meant it.
Do you own a house? Did you put a down payment on it? Do you pay your mortgage every month?
Are you sure you're GOING TO KEEP PAYING IT FOREVER untill the house it yours?
No. You cannot be sure. And the house (heaven) will not be yours till ALL payments are made.
I thought I'd post something from the net. Maybe that will be understood better...
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
The Holy Spirit as an Earnest or Seal
Assurance of Salvation or Once Saved, Always Saved?
In 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13,14; Rom. 8:16 Paul uses expressions that refer to various ways that a product or act may be guaranteed to be genuine or authentic.
A seal was used as proof that a document or law was officially ratified and therefore genuine (this was especially common in Paul's day, but is still done sometimes today).
Likewise, an earnest was a sort of down payment or partial payment. given as assurance of intent to pay other money. Today, when a buyer purchases a house, he may initially pay a small part of the total price as a pledge of his sincere or "earnest" intent to purchase. The amount initially given becomes assurance that the rest will come later.
Likewise, under the gospel Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. This is not a literal or personal embodiment of the Spirit in our bodies like our own spirits inhabit our bodies. Rather, the Spirit is said to dwell in us even as the Father and Son are said to dwell in us (John 17:20,21; 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 2 Corinthians 6:16-18).
This is an expression for the unity or fellowship we have with God and all the blessings we have as a result of that fellowship, in contrast to the alienation we have from God when we are in sin.
Paul's point is that the fellowship men have with Deity (the Holy Spirit, in particular) is just a down payment or partial installment assuring us that much greater blessings will come later when we enter into the final reward in eternity.
Some people mistakenly use such passages to claim that, since we have the Holy Spirit as a "guarantee," we cannot lose salvation - "once saved always saved."
However, the "earnest" shows good intention on God's part; but that in no way guarantees the faithfulness of the humans in keeping our part of the agreement. It is not uncommon, in human transactions, for a party to back out of a purchase or violate a contract after earnest money has been paid.
The point here is that God will not back out, if we keep our part of the agreement. But if we humans do not keep our part of the covenant, God is surely not required to provide us eternal life. He can and will then withdraw His earnest, and we lose our reward.
For passages proving a child of God can so sin as to be lost, see John 15:1-6; Acts 8:12-24; Romans 6:12-18; 8:12-17; Galatians 5:1-4; 6:7-9; 1 Corinthians 9:25-10:12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 5:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 3:6,11-14; 4:9,11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 1:8-11; 2:20-22
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
The above answers both how the "seal of the Holy Spirit" functions and how this "earnest" is only a down payment and not a GUARANTEE.
See. You just CANNOT give a simple answer.
Jesus Always gave simple answers so all could easily understand.
Here's the simple answer:
WE RE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AND BEHAVE AS CHRISTIANS SHOULD.
(you must be in my time zone)
God bless you Grace.
I agree with much of what you say.
I trust you understand why I try to make a point of my view.
Jesus Always gave simple answers so all could easily understand.
Here's the simple answer:
WE RE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AND BEHAVE AS CHRISTIANS SHOULD.
(you must be in my time zone)
God bless you Grace.
I agree with much of what you say.
I trust you understand why I try to make a point of my view.
I consistently give you the same simple answer. You just don't like the answer. Good works do not save a person nor keep a person saved. To say that "good works" saves people is a complete perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
The wonderful thing is that we as His children get to participate with Him in the family business of expressing the love and grace of our Father and Lord to those in the world.
I am currently in Atlantic Canada.
Preach Christ and His life will manifest in believers lives. Without Him we can do nothing. He is our life.
The Lord bless you too! All is well...
The wonderful thing is that we as His children get to participate with Him in the family business of expressing the love and grace of our Father and Lord to those in the world.
I am currently in Atlantic Canada.
Preach Christ and His life will manifest in believers lives. Without Him we can do nothing. He is our life.
The Lord bless you too! All is well...
Actually, the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Those who BELIEVE the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their minds and choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. It sounds like you are confusing the fruit of repentance with the essence of repentance.
Did I say that I hate Catholics? NO Why would I consider Roman Catholics to be my brothers in Christ when the majority of them follow the false teachings of Roman Catholicism? (which perverts the gospel of Christ). With that being said, that does not mean that some Roman Catholics may come to believe the true gospel IN SPITE of what Roman Catholicism teaches and NOT BECAUSE of what it teaches. In that case, I would embrace the some who do truly believe to be my brothers in Christ. It's like this:
God saves us individually. "Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16). Genuine believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the false teachings of that church. But those who believe the gospel of Christ, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel. If one believes the gospel, then one has eternal salvation. But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct.
God saves us individually. "Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16). Genuine believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the false teachings of that church. But those who believe the gospel of Christ, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel. If one believes the gospel, then one has eternal salvation. But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct.
Your hatred of the CAtholic Church and those there is obvious.
Here's post no. 548 where you plainly state that you love your brethren,
but you do not consider Catholics to be your bretheren. Many other posts, I don't have the time to go through them all.
YOU know how you feel.
Blue is me
black is you
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Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Why do you ALWAYS bring up Roman Catholics??
Because much false theology is traced to them.
Are you one??
Absolutely not. I'm a born again Christian.
You should learn to love your brethren.
JESUS DEMANDED THIS OF YOU.
I do love my brethren.
See. Those who believe is OSAS are believing in a washed down theology.
Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and many other works-salvationists would agree with you.
You feel you could criticize your own brothers in Christ because you feel you could do whatever you want to do and still be saved.
Who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ? When did I say I want to do whatever I want to do/sin all I want etc.. and still be saved? Another straw man argument. Is that descriptive of someone who is born of God? 1 John 3:7-10. I criticize false doctrine, not my genuine brothers in Christ.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Check out Mathew 5:43-48
Jesus taught much about love, but He did not teach we should embrace the false teachings of false religions.
Do you read the bible, or do you read some books your church writes?
The Bible. You should ask Roman Catholics that question.
Here's post no. 548 where you plainly state that you love your brethren,
but you do not consider Catholics to be your bretheren. Many other posts, I don't have the time to go through them all.
YOU know how you feel.
Blue is me
black is you
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Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Why do you ALWAYS bring up Roman Catholics??
Because much false theology is traced to them.
Are you one??
Absolutely not. I'm a born again Christian.
You should learn to love your brethren.
JESUS DEMANDED THIS OF YOU.
I do love my brethren.
See. Those who believe is OSAS are believing in a washed down theology.
Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and many other works-salvationists would agree with you.
You feel you could criticize your own brothers in Christ because you feel you could do whatever you want to do and still be saved.
Who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ? When did I say I want to do whatever I want to do/sin all I want etc.. and still be saved? Another straw man argument. Is that descriptive of someone who is born of God? 1 John 3:7-10. I criticize false doctrine, not my genuine brothers in Christ.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Check out Mathew 5:43-48
Jesus taught much about love, but He did not teach we should embrace the false teachings of false religions.
Do you read the bible, or do you read some books your church writes?
The Bible. You should ask Roman Catholics that question.
I've had Roman Catholics quote Ignatius to me before in an effort to support the false doctrine of "transubstantiation."
Ignatius of Antioch - "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius of Antioch - They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
The early church fathers were not infallible and neither were their writings. I've even heard Roman Catholics quote from certain church fathers in an effort to support infant baptism, which is also unbiblical.
Ignatius of Antioch - "I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius of Antioch - They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
The early church fathers were not infallible and neither were their writings. I've even heard Roman Catholics quote from certain church fathers in an effort to support infant baptism, which is also unbiblical.
What's truly sad is your continued slanderous remarks. I really don't have hate inside of me for people, only false doctrine. Why is it so hard for you to understand the difference? I love my family, who are mostly Roman Catholics. I work with a man named "Kevin" who is a very devout Roman Catholic and even though we don't agree on doctrine, I treat him with love and respect.
It is abundantly clear that the Roman Catholic Church belief system is a major perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is based on a works-based false gospel.
I do believe within that false man-made denomination there are legitimate Christians that are born of the Spirit of God and they are our brethren.
This does not mean that we stop preaching and teaching the true gospel of Christ. Speak the truth and the light of Christ will dispel the darkness that is in this false religion.
I do believe within that false man-made denomination there are legitimate Christians that are born of the Spirit of God and they are our brethren.
This does not mean that we stop preaching and teaching the true gospel of Christ. Speak the truth and the light of Christ will dispel the darkness that is in this false religion.
What's truly sad is your continued slanderous remarks. I really don't have hate inside of me for people, only false doctrine. Why is it so hard for you to understand the difference? I love my family, who are mostly Roman Catholics. I work with a man named "Kevin" who is a very devout Roman Catholic and even though we don't agree on doctrine, I treat him with love and respect.
I have seen you say this very same thing many times in the past year and 1/2. We can see what you are "really saying".
Religion in it's many forms are an enemy to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic religion is no different.
Make no mistake about it - there is an all out war against the gospel of the grace of God in Christ - for in "it" ( the true gospel ) is the power of God for salvation. And in "it" the righteousness of God is revealed.
Religion is always against these truths and a works-based religion is an anti-Christ belief system.