Flood - worldwide or local?
- Thread starter Locutus
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Logically, if mountains were visible, all earth was not covered by waters. Thats why "all earth" used in Genesis in English translations is so misleading.Note: Global flood and YEC are spread mostly in English speaking countries. Coincidence? I dont think so.
It says on the t4enth month the mountains were visible.. That's all. Stop adding your opinion to the word.. By the tenth month the3 water receded so the mountain tops could be seen..
as for coincidence. It means nothing.. If that's all you have to prove your point. Again, you have failed to do so.
I have not read all the responses, so please forgive me if these points have been brought forth already...
To the idea that the flood need only reach as far as mankind had settled, Genesis 7:21-23 "All flesh..."
To the idea that the dove brought back a freshly-plucked olive leaf, which had to come from a tree, you're reading into the text the assumption that only a "tree" could produce a leaf. You seem to have overlooked the possibility of a new seedling. There is a period of about fifty days at the beginning of Genesis 8 which could allow an olive seedling to leaf out, especially if it sprouted while floating in a mat of rotting vegetation.
To the idea that Noah could not write about things which he did not know, this is a canard, because someone had to write about the things which no man observed (Genesis 1) so there is no reason why God could not have essentially dictated the unknown parts of the flood account as well.
While it's true that nothing in the account specifies a worldwide flood in those particular terms, I think those who hold to a local flood are having to do some semantic gymnastics, as well as overlooking some rather spectacular geologic evidence.
A related note, since it has been brought up... I recall a video on YouTube on the subject (or perhaps two) which discuss the possibility that the comets are actually remnants of the flood, given that the force with which water was ejected from within the crust could have forced it to exceed escape velocity. A theory, I know. No need to flame me for sharing it. Other videos have presented the idea that the ice age is a direct result of the flood, and that radioactive materials in the crust are largely the result of the flood as well. I find the evidence compelling... but I recognize that compelling evidence is not "proof".
To the idea that the flood need only reach as far as mankind had settled, Genesis 7:21-23 "All flesh..."
To the idea that the dove brought back a freshly-plucked olive leaf, which had to come from a tree, you're reading into the text the assumption that only a "tree" could produce a leaf. You seem to have overlooked the possibility of a new seedling. There is a period of about fifty days at the beginning of Genesis 8 which could allow an olive seedling to leaf out, especially if it sprouted while floating in a mat of rotting vegetation.
To the idea that Noah could not write about things which he did not know, this is a canard, because someone had to write about the things which no man observed (Genesis 1) so there is no reason why God could not have essentially dictated the unknown parts of the flood account as well.
While it's true that nothing in the account specifies a worldwide flood in those particular terms, I think those who hold to a local flood are having to do some semantic gymnastics, as well as overlooking some rather spectacular geologic evidence.
A related note, since it has been brought up... I recall a video on YouTube on the subject (or perhaps two) which discuss the possibility that the comets are actually remnants of the flood, given that the force with which water was ejected from within the crust could have forced it to exceed escape velocity. A theory, I know. No need to flame me for sharing it. Other videos have presented the idea that the ice age is a direct result of the flood, and that radioactive materials in the crust are largely the result of the flood as well. I find the evidence compelling... but I recognize that compelling evidence is not "proof".
Locutus, that is one of the videos I referenced. If it has been debunked, could you please provide information supporting that? No point in continuing to mention it if it has truly been debunked.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
Locutus, that is one of the videos I referenced. If it has been debunked, could you please provide information supporting that? No point in continuing to mention it if it has truly been debunked.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
Genesis 6:18-21
But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds after theirkind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.”
There weren't that many living things as people suppose, the phrase "after it's kind" let's us know that for say the canine family, Noah didn't take from chihuahua to great dane plus a raccoon dog to a wolf or all cats, tigers, cheetah, jaguar, mountain lions and lions. He just needed one of the each kind, not the whole family. I guess God took care of them after the flood was over and caused the different parts of that kind. Noah didn't need every living thing and God didn't tell him to gather every living thing either, only after it's kind.
There was plenty of the animals to breed listen to a more detailed instruction from the Lord. Genesis 7:2-4 "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”
Here are the animals that enter the ark. Genesis 7:14 "they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort."
But I agree, there still had to be a smell, I've heard some say that God could of placed them in a hibernating state, but the word doesn't say that, it would of been nice though.
But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds after theirkind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.”
There weren't that many living things as people suppose, the phrase "after it's kind" let's us know that for say the canine family, Noah didn't take from chihuahua to great dane plus a raccoon dog to a wolf or all cats, tigers, cheetah, jaguar, mountain lions and lions. He just needed one of the each kind, not the whole family. I guess God took care of them after the flood was over and caused the different parts of that kind. Noah didn't need every living thing and God didn't tell him to gather every living thing either, only after it's kind.
There was plenty of the animals to breed listen to a more detailed instruction from the Lord. Genesis 7:2-4 "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”
Here are the animals that enter the ark. Genesis 7:14 "they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort."
But I agree, there still had to be a smell, I've heard some say that God could of placed them in a hibernating state, but the word doesn't say that, it would of been nice though.
It doesn't forbid us to read history or the Bible would be forbidden, since it has lot of history. Jewish, nation before the Jews became a nation and Church history. They didn't get to the OT, the dead sea scrolls match up word for word or thought to thought of a major part of the OT. If I remember right there were like three verses in Isaiah that were different. It's been a long time since I study that.
M
Has anyone ever considered that the flood isn't just mentioned in Genesis
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.
The author of Scripture is the Holy Spirit of God and His viewpoint is perfect and His word is true.
II Peter 1:20 "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;"
Jeremiah 30:2 ""Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book."
II Peter 1:19-21 "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."
There is another thing to consider, at that time information was transferred orally before the elders. Since there was only one language and one speech. Genesis 11:1 the information bout the flood would not have lost anything in translation because it didn't need to be translated, remembering that Abraham lived about 40 year at the end of Noah's life. The over riding factor is that the Holy Spirit is the one that gave the information to Moses to write down, so we know that the information was true, because the Holy Spirit leads into all truth, John 16:13a-d.
Genesis 11:1 "Now the whole earth had one language and one speech."
John 16:13a-d "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;"
That for sure leans itself to the whole land being under water, since the land was one continent at that time, adds to that, the rest of the earth is always covered in water and you have the whole earth covered in water or a worldwide flood. The nations being divided on the earth. To the future at the second coming of Christ, will He judge the whole earth or a localized area?
Genesis 10:32 "the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood."
II Peter 3:4-5 "For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water."
Isaiah 54:9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you."
Matthew 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
II Peter 1:20 "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;"
Jeremiah 30:2 ""Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book."
II Peter 1:19-21 "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."
There is another thing to consider, at that time information was transferred orally before the elders. Since there was only one language and one speech. Genesis 11:1 the information bout the flood would not have lost anything in translation because it didn't need to be translated, remembering that Abraham lived about 40 year at the end of Noah's life. The over riding factor is that the Holy Spirit is the one that gave the information to Moses to write down, so we know that the information was true, because the Holy Spirit leads into all truth, John 16:13a-d.
Genesis 11:1 "Now the whole earth had one language and one speech."
John 16:13a-d "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;"
That for sure leans itself to the whole land being under water, since the land was one continent at that time, adds to that, the rest of the earth is always covered in water and you have the whole earth covered in water or a worldwide flood. The nations being divided on the earth. To the future at the second coming of Christ, will He judge the whole earth or a localized area?
Genesis 10:32 "the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood."
II Peter 3:4-5 "For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water."
Isaiah 54:9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you."
Matthew 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
Locutus, that is one of the videos I referenced. If it has been debunked, could you please provide information supporting that? No point in continuing to mention it if it has truly been debunked.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
That said, the internet is full of claims that various theories have been debunked, when in fact they haven't. I'd need to see something pretty substantial.
If you belieeve it was a miracle, you can say whatever you want and have no problem with the physics, logic or common sense. In such case any discussion is irrelevant, you will just say "God did it, God cleaned it".
If you think it had to obey nature laws we know, in this case such a video is debunked, for example by the temperature of such event, no ark could survive such explosions.
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Has anyone ever considered that the flood isn't just mentioned in Genesis
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.
Has anyone ever considered that the flood isn't just mentioned in Genesis
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.
Psalm 104:5-9 NKJV
[5] You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved
forever, [6] You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters stood
above the mountains. [7] At Your rebuke they fled; At the voice of Your thunder
they hastened away. [8] They went up over the mountains; They went
down into the valleys, To the place which You founded for them. [9] You have
set a boundary that they may not pass over, That they may not return to cover the earth.
Psalm 46:1-3 NKJV
[1] God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
[2] Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And
though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; [3] Though its
waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah
Psalm 93:3-4 NKJV
[3] The floods have lifted up, O LORD, The floods have lifted up their voice;
The floods lift up their waves. [4] The LORD on high is mightier Than the noise
of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea.