For those who say they were saved before they spoke in tongues....

[posthuman]

Posthuman said
"let's not get starry eyed at the thought of mystery and forget that he says he wold rather speak 5 intelligible words than a thousand words that don't benefit anyone who hears them.
& he doesn't say that he speaks in unknown tongues - he only says he'd rather not. sure and you can take that as an implication that he does, but it's not what the text says."

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul speaking. Does he know by experience what praying in an unknown tongue is? You tell me.

if i jump out of an airplane, i am trusting in my parachute, and while i am in free-fall my arms and legs are no use to me.

post speaking.
do i know by experience what skydiving is? you tell me.

i'm just saying it's inconclusive.
like i said, there are grounds to take it as an implication. Paul certainly didn't boast about it, he makes plain that not everyone does this as a gift, and the gifts he tells us we should desire do not include speaking in tongues - moreover as we both agree is 'the right angle,' he is clear that speaking to each other in a way that edifies is better than not, and i'm inclined to believe the same about our conversation with the Father.

what do you think about all the other things i wrote? not worried, i hope

 

[Utah]

until you can directly answer the questions I posed

This seems to be a recurring pattern.

 

[phil112]

This seems to be a recurring pattern.

Yes, and a reoccuring result. Lest I be thought insane, I will quit repeating that request since it it always met with the same result.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Yes, and a reoccuring result. Lest I be thought insane, I will quit repeating that request since it it always met with the same result.

Well phil112, What's your reason for ignoring me? I believe I have been sincere with you.

 

[ladylynn]

1. It is very questionable that this is even true scripture and was not added many years after Christ was alive on earth.
2. many christians have eaten poison accidently and have died, or bitten by snakes and have died. So either A - number one is true (which is most likely the case) or B - not everyone will experience these things. which means 3 - your in error. no matter which one is true

Gotta say how much I appreciate Bible commentary and copy and paste. This is an excellent answer to your post saying it's very questionable that this verse is not even 'true' scripture. I totally disagree with that since it is in fact in the Bible. I don't believe we can put in and take out what we don't agree with or what doesn't make sense to us. If there have been Christians who have eaten poison and died or been bitten by snakes and died that does not mean we take out this verse. Note the commentary below for a more in depth interpretation.



Note 10 at Mr 16:17: Some people have tried to get around these verses by saying that they were not found in some of the oldest manuscripts. The only reason that people desire to explain these scriptures away is because their lives don't match up with them. Instead of changing themselves, they would rather change the scriptures.
We still have the same authority today that Jesus gave His disciples to cast out devils. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it. We are still supposed to walk in victory over the devil, and if a true believer lays hands on the sick, they will recover. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb 13:8).
Note 11 at Mr 16:17: When Jesus said that we would do these signs in His name, He was referring to doing these signs through His power and ability. He gave us His power of attorney.
Note 12 at Mr 16:17: Casting out devils is not a special ministry for only some in the body of Christ. It is the right of every believer. No one who reads the Bible can deny that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people. Still some don't believe that this has any relevance to us today. All they have to do is look around at the depravity in our society, and they can see that we still have demon possession today
.
Note 13 at Mr 16:17: Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit discussed in 1Co 12-14. It is one of the first miraculous manifestations that accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Ac 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6).
There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1Co 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels. The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Ac 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost. There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1Co 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1Co 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1Co 14:5).
Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1Co 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1Co 14:4).

 

[Gr8grace]

Gotta say how much I appreciate Bible commentary and copy and paste. This is an excellent answer to your post saying it's very questionable that this verse is not even 'true' scripture. I totally disagree with that since it is in fact in the Bible. I don't believe we can put in and take out what we don't agree with or what doesn't make sense to us. If there have been Christians who have eaten poison and died or been bitten by snakes and died that does not mean we take out this verse. Note the commentary below for a more in depth interpretation.



Note 10 at Mr 16:17: Some people have tried to get around these verses by saying that they were not found in some of the oldest manuscripts. The only reason that people desire to explain these scriptures away is because their lives don't match up with them. Instead of changing themselves, they would rather change the scriptures.
We still have the same authority today that Jesus gave His disciples to cast out devils. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it. We are still supposed to walk in victory over the devil, and if a true believer lays hands on the sick, they will recover. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb 13:8).
Note 11 at Mr 16:17: When Jesus said that we would do these signs in His name, He was referring to doing these signs through His power and ability. He gave us His power of attorney.
Note 12 at Mr 16:17: Casting out devils is not a special ministry for only some in the body of Christ. It is the right of every believer. No one who reads the Bible can deny that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people. Still some don't believe that this has any relevance to us today. All they have to do is look around at the depravity in our society, and they can see that we still have demon possession today
.
Note 13 at Mr 16:17: Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit discussed in 1Co 12-14. It is one of the first miraculous manifestations that accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Ac 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6).
There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1Co 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels. The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Ac 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost. There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1Co 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1Co 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1Co 14:5).
Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1Co 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1Co 14:4).

It's in our translations. Most likely not in the original.........

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126.16:9-20 The Ending(s) of Mark. Four endings of the Gospel according to Mark are current in the manuscripts. (1) The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (א and B), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (it [SUP]k[/SUP]), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913). Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The original form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammonius) makes no provision for numbering sections of the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document.

It is why we should be like the Bereans. Historical background is included in our studies.

 

[Gr8grace]

Gotta say how much I appreciate Bible commentary and copy and paste. This is an excellent answer to your post saying it's very questionable that this verse is not even 'true' scripture. I totally disagree with that since it is in fact in the Bible. I don't believe we can put in and take out what we don't agree with or what doesn't make sense to us. If there have been Christians who have eaten poison and died or been bitten by snakes and died that does not mean we take out this verse. Note the commentary below for a more in depth interpretation.



Note 10 at Mr 16:17: Some people have tried to get around these verses by saying that they were not found in some of the oldest manuscripts. The only reason that people desire to explain these scriptures away is because their lives don't match up with them. Instead of changing themselves, they would rather change the scriptures.
We still have the same authority today that Jesus gave His disciples to cast out devils. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it. We are still supposed to walk in victory over the devil, and if a true believer lays hands on the sick, they will recover. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb 13:8).
Note 11 at Mr 16:17: When Jesus said that we would do these signs in His name, He was referring to doing these signs through His power and ability. He gave us His power of attorney.
Note 12 at Mr 16:17: Casting out devils is not a special ministry for only some in the body of Christ. It is the right of every believer. No one who reads the Bible can deny that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people. Still some don't believe that this has any relevance to us today. All they have to do is look around at the depravity in our society, and they can see that we still have demon possession today
.
Note 13 at Mr 16:17: Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit discussed in 1Co 12-14. It is one of the first miraculous manifestations that accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Ac 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6).
There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1Co 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels. The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Ac 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost. There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1Co 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1Co 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1Co 14:5).
Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1Co 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1Co 14:4).

The language of men or angels? Is there an instance in the word when angels spoke anything other than a known human language?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

It's in our translations. Most likely not in the original.........

What translations are those?

It is why we should be like the Bereans. Historical background is included in our studies.

Who are the Bereans? I don't recall hearing of Bereans.

 

[convallaria]

For me this is just more evidence that biblical tongues have ceased.

Tongues~~the least of the gifts~~If another believer questions this "least of a gift" and is in danger of hell fire for it. If it divides that strongly..........they have ceased.

God does the dividing and His word stands. These signs (including tongues) follow believers, as Jesus said, and that means they don't follow unbelievers, clearly.

2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Pretty clear.

Here is another division, on the basis of Godly conduct:
Matt 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


That is pretty clear division.


We cannot be righteous in our own flesh since God has already pronounced judgment on it: Isaiah 6:46 “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”


God’s solution is Jesus Christ. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The invitation to receive Him is to us all, as we know. And if we are born of God then we are born of His Spirit, and there will be evidence of the Spirit, one of which is speaking in tongues.


If the works above in Matt 25 flow from the Spirit of God, then they are acceptable to Him, because Christ is our righteousness, and we have none of our own. Christ in you, the hope of glory.


Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


There again is the division of God.

 

[convallaria]

I see; this comment seems to have planted a seed in this thread;

--At the time of this writing, it is 19:33 GMT-5.

I'm not quite certain I can agree with this seed;
as 3Scoreand10 has not followed up on his comment;
I could elaborate further, as to why I disagree, but I think it not beneficial at this point.

So, in an attempt to assist;

Convallaria, I believe you may have jumped-the-gun when you included individuals' names with your closing blanket-statement:

And that goes for you phil, utah, gr8grace and anyone else who agrees with it.

Phil, I am not certain that you are aware, but you have an unanswered reply from Crossnote: Here.
And, Phil, as for your questions (Post #135 - Which, I believe references: Post #135) I believe I responded to all of them in (Post #111), please let me know if I missed any, or if I have been inaccurate in any of my assessments.

Angela, I haven't been following your conversation with Convallaria and I pray that Jesus intervenes.

Sincerely,
-WW

*Please let me know how I can improve my communication, people, I am not here to create enemies, but friends.

Hi WW thanks for what you said. My comment "and that goes for you etc" was because I saw they all "liked" the awful post from 3scoreand10. Of course they may have "unliked" it by now, but that is what I saw at the time. This forum takes some getting used to: I am new.

I felt what he said was deeply offensive to all who speak in tongues, but more importantly, deeply offensive to God. He will need to repent of that because if he doesn't, he is in big trouble. Hopefully he won't find out when it is too late.

BTW your communication is fine

 

[convallaria]

i don't need a carnal "evidence" because i have faith.

♥

How do you figure that speaking in tongues is carnal evidence?

 

[convallaria]

Please answer my post #128. Instead of repeatedly ignoring verses.

There was no indication in post 128 that you were addressing me. But I have seen it now so here we go.

"Yet people here keep saying they need to have some kind of external sign of salvation, like speaking in tongues before they are saved. That their walk with Christ wasn't "full" or "complete" or something. Correct me if I am wrong."



I have repeatedly not said that. From the beginning I have said that you are saved first and that once saved, i.e born again, having received the Holy Spirit, you can go on to receive a sign or evidence of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues.

I believe this is part of knowing the fullness of the Spirit and moving in Him.

The evidence (or sign) has a twofold purpose. God already knows if we are saved so He doesn't need one. But WE need one, that is the first purpose. We know that LOVE is one evidence of the Holy Spirit, for instance, as follows:
1 John 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

So if what we do in the Lord comes from the heart of God's love towards all men, according to His working in us, we can assure our hearts before Him. God already knows if it is HIS love we show, or if we are biting and devouring others because they disagree with us; but WE need to know it ourselves, so that we may assure our hearts and continue in confidence to help others forward in their faith, through the ministry and giftings He has given us.

The second purpose of evidence is for the unbeliever, those that occupy the room of the unlearned (1 Cor 14:16). Jesus said we are known by our fruits, and also that by this shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another. So the unbeliever sees the evidence of discipleship in the fruit of the Spirit

(love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[FONT=&quot]Meekness, temperance:[/FONT],); and the gifts of the Spirit, like tongues (given in church with an interpreter) prophecy, healings, faith, miracles etc., (1 Cor 12).

Your question:


[FONT=&quot]So are those people who demands this second blessing not really saved, and when they speak in tongues, perhaps that is when they truly encounter God for the first time and are saved? I'm not saying they haven't confessed with their mouth, but maybe their heart was not truly changed?[/FONT]


Well it is a good enough question. But I know that no one can receive a gift of the Spirit without being born of the Spirit, and that conversion requires a real and true change of heart. Also there is absolutely no demanding: it is offered freely to us all who are born again, and it might be in some cases a second blessing, but not all. In my case it would be the fourth and one of many significant blessings, as follows:
1) I was born again
2) I received an experience of the Holy Spirit to confirm He is in me
3) I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit when my whole being became super-alive in and to the Lord, and some time later 4) I received the gift of tongues

This happened over a period of years, and subsequently there have been many more blessings such as e.g. what I would call a baptism of fire, then the blessing of true spiritual fellowship, the blessing of understanding who I am in the body of Christ, the blessing of the anointing to speak...and many other things freely offered to all according as we believe.

There is nothing of ourselves that can produce a work of the Spirit, only the Spirit can do that and He will work freely wherever there is faith.

James 1:


4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.



OK Angela I hope that helps! Apologies I missed you first time around.

 

[convallaria]

Your latest post was 129. I am not interested in reading fluff from you, and until you can directly answer the questions I posed, I will take that as a sign that you can't. Therefore, the rest of your posts have the same amount of credibility - zero.
Answer the questions I posed directly or admit that you adhere to a false doctrine.
If you are truthful the word will support you. Answer.

So the Word of God as quotedin 129 is FLUFF? Dear me. OK you have adequately identified yourself a few times on here without my help, lol.

 

[posthuman]

Who are the Bereans? I don't recall hearing of Bereans.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
(Acts 17:11)
​

when someone says "be berean" or "like the bereans" they are referring to this passage, and meaning to diligently study something, comparing it to scripture to make sure it is true, instead of naively believing it just because it's told to them.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

As per the word of God..

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


120 in the upper room..

Acts 2v4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

people confuse this with natural languages..

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

and so they heard babble and thought they were drunk...then converted Peter now stands and boldly explains what this is and how to be saved...acts 2v38 etc

Acts 8..Simon the sorcerer..12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Spirit NOT AUTOMATIC...

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Simon a con artist is willing to PAY for something..more than just a feeling or signing a card or some other religious stuff which he could readily duplicate..but not this..you cant get the signs following without Jesus ..mark 16v16+

The 1st recorded Gentile...Cornelius..

Acts 10v 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

how did they Know....

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

acts 19..2 .. Have you recieved the Holy Ghost since you believed ?....5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

repentance and baptism is your part..receiving the Holy Ghost is Gods response to obedience..

I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God..not just bits and pieces that suit religious people..

so you speak in tongues etc ..remember the 10 virgins (unbelievers are not included) 5 wise and 5 foolish !! your Born again a babe in Christ you need the sincere milk of the word ! you wont get that from a non spirit filled church !! even if they say Jesus or Christ,Jehovah, Yahweh the Lord of Hosts is his name whatever..

its like a gift ..car for example its new and nice in your driveway ! but no one told you about keys !?,Fuel, or even how to drive it...so it just sits as an added extra and rusts seizes up..does nothing..dont hide this talent in yourself you are the earthen vessel use it , build yourself up praying in the Spirit God has given ( JUDE ) when you are built up you will be able to more readily access ALL of Gods promises that Jesus through his sacrifice has made available to you..so

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Find a church run as per instructions..Corinthians...asap..others may call themselves christian, they can call themselves Napoleon for that matter.. no signs.. not following Jesus His way..

ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth..they have eyes but see not ,ears but hear not..because they have hardened there heart...

Not everyone speak tongues, or prophet or do miracles, or have a teacher's gift, and not everyone who speak tongues, or do other works will be saved.

Only few are those who will enter to the life, and love is the most important thing to have, if we wish to be saved.

 

[ladylynn]

It's in our translations. Most likely not in the original.........

Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126.16:9-20 The Ending(s) of Mark. Four endings of the Gospel according to Mark are current in the manuscripts. (1) The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (א and B), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (it [SUP]k[/SUP]), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913). Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The original form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammonius) makes no provision for numbering sections of the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document.

It is why we should be like the Bereans. Historical background is included in our studies.

As I look into this subject it's clear that believers do not agree and give their reasons why. Although I respect and use commentary from men of God like Charles Ryrie a lot., I don't agree with all of his conclusions either. But do agree with much of them. And I'm very comforted to know that God is pleased when we study out His Word for ourselves and allow the HolySpirit to minister to us personally. We do not have to always agree on everything to stand together as a body of believers.

For myself, I can't ignore this portion of scripture. It's in the Bible and God left it there so I won't dismiss it anymore than I would the existence of hell despite how much it goes against my understanding of mercy and love of God. Yet it is there in the Bible and I will yeald to it's reality.

Reading Mark 16:15-20 And He said to them, God into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who have believed; in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover.
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

So even though a great man like Ryrie and or Ravi Zachariah or Bruce Metzger and others do not hold to the gifts being for today in the Atonement, I respectfully can disagree and still appreciate and use their study commentary without worry. God gives us each the responsibility and place to walk personally and humbly with Him. He is not a respecter of persons. Amen! Here are only some of the many reasons why I believe in these gifts given for new testament believers under the new covenant of grace.

1. Healing is part of Christ’s Atonement. If He suffered and took stripes on His back for our physical healing, then it’s not insignificant. If He thought enough of healing to purchase it for us, then we ought to think enough of it to receive. God the Father caused His Son to bear all of our sins and all of our sicknesses on the cross. Jesus took our diseases just as much as He took our sins.
2. The Lord used healing like a bell to get people’s attention and to prove that He did have power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-9). Jesus was saying that it’s easier to say “Your sins are forgiven” than “Rise up and walk” because they would immediately be able to tell if He had the power or not by whether this man rose up and walked. If you can do the greater work, then certainly you can do the lesser. If you can jump fifteen feet, then certainly you can jump two feet. Jesus made it very clear that the reason He healed this man was so people would know that also had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10-12).
3. Jesus also said that the miracles He did authenticated who He was and confirmed what He said (John 5:36). If Jesus needed the witness of the miracles He performed to validate His authority, then how can we possibly do less? It is the height of arrogance to think that we can use words alone to persuade people, when Jesus had to have signs and miracles to confirm His words.
4. Some folks say, “We don’t need miracles today; we have the Word of God.” Yet that’s not what the Bible teaches (Mark 16:17-20). What people say must always be checked against God’s Word. In God’s system, when His Word is truly preached, there will be signs and wonders to confirm that it is the truth.
5. If all we preach are things having spiritual, eternal value and the forgiveness of sins, then all we’ll see is people being born again. But if we preach and teach the whole counsel of God, He will confirm it with signs, wonders, and miracles. If both Jesus and the early believers needed miracles, signs, and wonders to confirm the message from God that they preached, then we do too!.

 

[posthuman]

How do you figure that speaking in tongues is carnal evidence?

maybe "corporeal" would have been a better word for me to use, sorry -
but i used "carnal" to refer to things that appeal to the flesh - through the eyes, through the ears, through pride, through feelings or emotions, like the mormon's 'burning in the bosom' -- all those things are external, deceptive and can be counterfeited. they pertain to what's going to be burned up and destroyed, or what will return to dust.

so what i mean is that i don't need to see physical miracles, outward physical signs, or have a deep emotional experience or high feeling to believe or to confirm what i believe. it's like this:

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
(1 Samuel 16:7)

A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.
(Proverbs 21:2)

Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
(Luke 11:39)​

what i see in the scriptures is that the inside, the heart, is what really matters to God - more than outward signs. and it's demonstrated over and over in them that what appears good externally can be rotten inside, and also what appears base or foolish externally can be approved by God inside.
so tongues or healing or prosperity or piousness -- those things are the outside of the cup. i don't deny that they can be real blessings or come from God - i'm just saying that they are not incontrovertible evidence, they are not necessary if i have faith, and that they shouldn't form a basis for faith. i'm not singling out tongues here -- but it's an outward thing IMO, and man judges appearance, but God judges the heart.

 

[ladylynn]

The language of men or angels? Is there an instance in the word when angels spoke anything other than a known human language?

I do not know how the angels speak in heaven but they do have a heavenly language and they speak it all the time when they are not speaking a human language. There is a lot we do not understand about the workings of God but believe nevertheless. I've been stretched to believe more and more of what I don't understand. This issue is something that has certainly stretched my previous understanding of the Bible about the meaning and purpose of speaking in tongues. If someone said 10 years ago that I would be speaking in tongues there is no way I would believe that could be true.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.Note 1 at 1Co 13:1: There are different kinds of tongues. That's why Paul spoke of "divers" (i.e., different) kinds of tongues (1Co 12:10). This verse mentions two kinds of tongues--those that are human languages and those that are angelic languages.
"Tongues of men" simply refers to known languages that are in use here on earth. This is the type of tongue that the believers spoke on the Day of Pentecost (Ac 2:1-11). They spoke in the native tongues of the people who had come from foreign countries to Jerusalem for the feast. The believers who spoke in these tongues had not learned these languages, and they did not understand what they were saying as they spoke. Still, those from the different countries understood them perfectly.
"Tongues of angels" simply refers to the languages that angels speak. Some might see a benefit in speaking in the "tongues of men." After all, that was quite a testimony to the multitudes, and many were saved as a result. But what benefit is there to speaking in the tongues of angels?
One of the great advantages of speaking in tongues is that when we speak in tongues, we are praying from our spirits and not our heads (1Co 14:14). Speaking in this heavenly language bypasses the brain and its limitations, which can sometimes be a real hindrance to communication with the Lord. The spirit is the part of us that has the mind of Christ, and praying from the spirit is much more powerful than praying from our limited wisdom.
Also, as we pray in tongues, we are praising God with perfect praise (1Co 14:17). We have often been frustrated in our finite attempts to adequately praise an infinite God. That's the feeling behind songs like "O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing." The Lord has given us the ability to praise Him beyond the limitations of our minds through giving us this heavenly language that knows no limits.Speaking in the tongues of angels promotes spiritual growth (1Co 14:4). It builds us up on our most holy faith (Jude 20). It allows us to draw on the infinite wisdom of God that has been deposited on the inside of us .

Bible Commentary

 

[posthuman]

Hi WW thanks for what you said. My comment "and that goes for you etc" was because I saw they all "liked" the awful post from 3scoreand10. Of course they may have "unliked" it by now, but that is what I saw at the time. This forum takes some getting used to: I am new.

I felt what he said was deeply offensive to all who speak in tongues, but more importantly, deeply offensive to God. He will need to repent of that because if he doesn't, he is in big trouble. Hopefully he won't find out when it is too late.

yeah, being a member here takes some patience and exercises forgiveness
it's a lot easier not to offend each other when we're face to face, i think, and talking through messages like this we don't always represent ourselves well. i hope you can stick it out.

i don't know what it's like on your side of the pond, but over here for some decades we've had a charismatic movement that i can't say is entirely wrong - but there are certainly many examples of it where outward displays of spiritual gifts - especially tongues - is so over-emphasized, and so wrongly used and interpreted, that it's been to the detriment of the gospel and of the faith.
there are more than a few people that are members here who have testimonies of coming out of it - Angela for example - and how much it had damaged their faith instead of helping it. there are all kinds of examples of tongues being absolutely faked and taught completely against what's in the scripture -- poking around the internet for a few hours i'm sure you can readily find some sort of history & evidence of that in the States. for a good example check out the recent "strange fire" conference on this subject -- lots of videos of preaching and teaching from this on youtube. it'll give you an idea of where some of us are coming from.

so what 3scoreand10 was saying i think is a reaction to that - more to the OP's opinion that no one who doesn't speak in tongues is saved ((this is actually taught from some false pulpits)) and referring to places where people are literally speaking gibberish because they've been led astray by these wolves.
i don't think he was talking about the real gift & working of the Spirit -- he's (rightfully, IMO) indignant with false teaching, and probably you are taking what he said the wrong way.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
(Acts 17:11)
​

when someone says "be berean" or "like the bereans" they are referring to this passage, and meaning to diligently study something, comparing it to scripture to make sure it is true, instead of naively believing it just because it's told to them.

Thank you!