Forgiven When?

Depleted · May 12, 2016

Were we forgiven at the cross or when we believed the gospel? I believe the bible teaches God forgave our sin debt and reconciled Himself to us at the cross. When we believe the gospel, we have reconciled ourselves to Him and are justified by faith. Since this is the case, unbelievers have no sin problem, but a Son problem! We are justified by faith, not by "turning from sin".

When making a comment about this whether agree or disagree, use "scriptureplz"

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1 John 2:2 .....And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 .....The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:18 .....He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 3:25 .....Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:1 .....Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God is the creator. He created time and space. Thus God was before time and space was. Soooo, what is before and after for someone who doesn't need time? God's forgiveness isn't a when.

AboundingGrace · May 12, 2016

The op question assumes that only one could be right. Is it, (1)- forgiven at the cross, or (2)- forgiven when we believed the gospel?

There can't be only one to be right, because there is God and the person involved.. so..

The correct answer is, both. #1 is God's part., and #2 is our part.

#2 would not be possible without #1.

Forgiveness is two sides of the same coin.

God from eternity, His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Man from time, taste and see the goodness of the Lord.

There is such joy when mercy given and truth received are met together.

FreeNChrist · May 12, 2016

The key is the living Christ.....

"IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" Eph 1:7

Scriptureplz · May 12, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

Yes, it is belief in the resurrection that actually saves us. That's why His forgiveness through His grace, can only be realized or manifested in us when we have believed the gospel, which includes the resurrection. The first part of the gospel does nothing for us without believing the second part as well.

Scriptureplz · May 12, 2016

AboundingGrace said:

In the OP I said....."When we believe the gospel, we have reconciled ourselves to Him and are justified by faith." I didn't assume only one way. Thanks for pointing it out though, it takes both His reconciliation, and ours.

Really the point of the whole post is to show there is no possible way for us to contribute to our own salvation by "turning from sin". We are saved by faith alone, because it is unbelief alone that condemns us before God. That is the only sin we can be sent to hell for, so "turning from sin" is worthless as far as salvation is concerned.

Thanks for the comment.

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 12, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

Paul said that those who live after the flesh won't be saved. What you are describing is gnosis, the idea that only belief is necessary and behavior is irrelevant.

Miri · May 12, 2016

Sorry have skimmed through the thread, so this might have been commented
on already.

I believe we are forgiven and come to salvation when we come to the
realisation that Jesus paid the price for our sin on the cross and and
unconditionally accept that free gift.

The death, resurrection of Jesus does not save us until that moment of realisation
under the unction and guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are drawn to that moment of
realisation but then have a choice as to whether to accept or reject it.

We are to come to Jesus and accept that free gift of life like little children accepting
a gift from their father. It is offered, we just believe and receive. It is so simple that
many miss the mark, but for children it is that simple. Many adults miss the mark
because they try to over complicate it, but it really is that easy. It's like a sudden
lightbulb moment, the light is turned on.

For some they may quietly accept in prayer in the depths of their heart. For others they
may accept weeping and on their knees. Still others come to that place full of joy and awe.

Think back to your own testimony and think about how you accepted that wonderful
free gift

Here is an extract from my testimony.

Around the age of 11 one night was I was on my own in bed I prayed that prayer and
asked Jesus into my heart. There wasn't any flashing lights or drama but I just knew
something special had happened. For a while though I was terrified of doing anything
wrong and use to think that I had to ask Jesus into my heart every night just in case
I had sinned during the day! As I said I was also really impressed with Solomon so
I also use to ask for wisdom every night!

Then one night about the age of 12 something amazing happened. I went to bed one
night with a bit of a cold. Nothing too bad in fact I wasn't even ill especially, but when
I got into bed I could not stop shivering, my whole body was shaking so much the bed
was shaking.

Then suddenly I felt as if I was in the presence of God and in my mind I started to question
God asking lots of childish things such as "God are you real, do you love me etc." and with
each question I asked I got an instant reply back in my mind and I kept shivering.

This went on for some time but I started to feel tired and I remember telling God that I
needed to sleep now. Suddenly I started to feel an incredible warmth moving up my body
starting with my feet and gradually moving up my body like a line. Below the line was
toasty warm above it I was a little cold.

As this invisible line moved further up my body more and more of my body warmed up,
until eventually it reached the top of my head and I found myself bathing in absolute
peace, love, serenity, it literally felt as though I was being held in the arms of God. It was
so incredible that I burst into tears, it felt as though everything bad had gone and was
replaced with love, goodness, kindness and every good thing imaginable.

In the end I was crying so much I had to get out of bed and get some tissues then I got
back into bed and fell asleep just bathed in this incredible love. The next day I woke up
and wondered if the whole thing had been a dream, but no, there were the wet tissues
on the bedside table and I just knew the whole thing was real.

http://christianchat.com/testimonie...ildless-father-who-discovered-father-god.html

AboundingGrace · May 12, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

I seem to be belaboring this, but I do apologize,.. by the way that it was written, it seemed to be a "make a choice of one answer from two possibilities" question.

Depleted · May 12, 2016

AboundingGrace said:

I've never been good at choose from column A or Column B. I instantly have to find Row 7 instead.

posthuman · May 13, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

you know the story of Simon the sorcerer? who wanted to "buy" the ability to lay hands on people so that they were overcome by the Spirit? read closely:

Peter answered:
“May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
(Acts 8:20-23)

notice that Peter says Simon should repent with the hope that God may forgive him (!) he does not say that Simon is already forgiven and just needs to realize it.

the scripture does not present the picture that all sins are already forgiven.
atonement has been made at the cross -- but whoever does not believe is condemned already, not forgiven already -- the way is prepared for us to be forgiven however no one is forgiven without first asking God for mercy.

that mercy is available -- but not universally applied.

p_rehbein · May 13, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

Sorry, but I must disagree with your perspective here...........in that we can not know the mind of God, nor His perspective to start with, AND our sins were not forgiven with Christ on the cross. What God did was provide the RANSOM, the price REQUIRED for the forgiveness of our sins with the shedding of Christ's precious blood on the cross. This ESTABLISHED a WAY for our sins to be forgiven. UNTIL that blood is APPLIED, there IS NO forgiveness of sin.

Your idea leads down the road of "all paths to heaven." Even though I don't think that is what you intended. IF all sin was forgiven at the Cross...........there is NO NEED for repentance or belief.........after all, our sins have been forgiven!

God provided THE LAMB, it is up to each and every one of us to ACCEPT the path to forgiveness and salvation, until we do, we are still dead in our sins.

Grace777x70 · May 13, 2016

posthuman said:

I believe it has to be believed and received in order for forgiveness to be applied to our lives. God has already in His mind been reconciled to us. It's just us that need to be reconciled to God by accepting what Jesus has done.

When you look at what Peter said in Acts 8:22 - it does not jive with the known gospel. There are so many scriptures that say we have the forgiveness of sins in Christ.

Acts 8:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

I think Peter was just angry at Simon for thinking he could buy the authority to lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit and spoke in his anger.

When you look at what Peter says - he says "IF possible" God can forgive you. We know that God has forgiven all sins except for the sin of unbelief in Christ.

This is NOT a doctrinal passage. I also don't believe Peter fully understood the gospel yet. You can see him progressing in truth throughout Acts. Before his vision and Cornelius he wouldn't even go into a Gentile house and didn't know the gospel was for other people then the Jews.

Can you imagine using Peter's description of forgiveness of sins that he used with Simon in our talks with people to come to Christ .

" Ok, people receive Christ and let's see if possible God might forgive your sins"???

This message is just so anti-the gospel that it's ridiculous to even consider it IMO.

This verse below shows that in God's mind He has reconciled us even when we were enemies. We see God's part and our part to be reconciled ourselves to God.

Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Notice that all these things are from God - sometimes it's hard for the natural mind of man to understand God's grace and mercy and His way are NOT our ways.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 13, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The word possible is not in the Greek text. Of course Simon could be forgiven, if he had the heart to truly repent of his wrongdoing. Peter said if because Simon's heart was not true in the sight of GOD. He could not receive GOD's forgiveness if his heart wasn't right. That's all that passage means.

Grace777x70 · May 13, 2016

The truth was that Simon's sin was forgiven in Christ. Peter was known for his rashness in speaking. Imagine saying to someone " IF God will forgive you"

...it is NOT the gospel at all. We do need to acknowledge His forgiveness that is in Christ. We live by faith in Christ's work.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say after Christ's death and resurrection.

Sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whomwe have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins

Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.

Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 13, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

That simply means that their past sins were forgiven.

Grace777x70 · May 13, 2016

The believer lives in continuous forgiveness of sins as can be seen by the Greek verb tense used ( it is in a completed state or condition ) because it is based on what Christ has already done.

It's time for us to believe the gospel of the grace of Christ! I realize it "conflicts" with our religious traditions and beliefs that some of us were taught.

It's time to grow up in the things of Christ and that will never happen until we understand what we have in Christ and the very first one is the revelation of the forgiveness of sins. Religion is in the "sin management " business but Christ is in the "exchanged life " business.

The message of the cross is foolishness to the natural mind of man because we are so used to "doing" things to earn and maintain our lives.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Scriptureplz · May 13, 2016

If you owe someone $20, and your buddy pays it without you knowing, you are forgiven that debt by the person holding the debt. You may not know it's paid, but it's paid, and it can never be brought up in court against you as having not been paid. You ARE FORGIVEN that debt!
When you understand the debt has been paid, you can either try to pay it anyway (which is kind of foolish isn't it?), or you can accept that it has been paid by someone else and reap the benefit of it for as long as the person who paid the debt lives! He is the only witness that can testify it was paid.

Forgiveness has taken place through the person of Jesus Christ. There is nothing left to do after receiving that truth. Receiving the gospel and accepting the payment Christ has already made is receiving His already made provision of forgiveness! In Gods book your account is clean and have been forgiven, the only thing left between you and Him which was unbelief. He will never hold our sins against us because they were already removed 2,000 years ago by His Son before we were even born. Once we have trusted in His Sons sacrifice for sin and resurrection from the dead, we are "in Christ", and there is NOTHING that can ever come between us and God again!

gb9 · May 13, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

and once again, here is " I must work to maintain my salvation", my sins were not REALLY forgiven, I am not REALLY saved, etc..

Grace777x70 · May 13, 2016

Here is what the Greek perfect passive tense and voice as used in 1 John 2:12 ( and the others put up in the other post ) means in relation to the forgiveness of sins that is in Christ.

Forgiveness of sins is something to be believed and received by faith in what Christ has already done. It is the gospel message that we are to be proclaiming.

Without a doubt this verse in 1 John 2:12 says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did. It is condition or state of being is continuously being true.

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 13, 2016

gb9 said:

All sins are forgiven if you repent and turn to GOD for cleansing. If you consider that a work that is forbidden by grace, well then that's your problem.

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