There has been so many threads on here about this subject. Sigh
At least one new thread seems to spring up every week. Incidentally Scriptureplz that is
what Depleted meant she was not being contentious, it really is getting tedious.
The thing is mostly the people who battle it out on these threads
are all right
in my opinion, that is why I seldom get involved, but you all just seem to put a little
more emphasise on one side or the other.
Both grace and walking in that grace (ie the doing thingy) are necessary and I'm a more
emphasise on the grace, kind of a person by the way, but I also understand the concept
that "actions speak louder than words".
So here is my opinion in a nut shell. Actually is a rather large nutshell
Adam and Eve enjoyed close one on one fellowship with God
then via their actions sin came and they were separated from God, because
God is so holy and they could no longer be in his presence without being destroyed.
Even God said to Moses, he could not see his face and live! So despite Moses
being one of the most humble people on earth and despite all the good things he
did, even Moses was not permitted to see God face to face and live. But at least
he saw God's back and even that small glimpse was out of this world!
The various laws and animal sacrifices in the OT were insufficient in that they
were just a token gesture of obedience and willingness to follow God and to cover
individual sins for a time. But the people had to keep up with those sacrifices and
laws just to keep afloat, all those laws and sacrifices did not take them out of the
mire, they just enabled them to keep their head above the water as it were.
I believe there were other reasons for the various laws and sacrifices, one being
an indication of the ultimate sacrifice to come, another that over and over again the
depravity of sin and its effects was being emphasised. That it was intended also as
a way to keep planet earth on track until it was the right time for Jesus to appear
on the scene. So for example if people had utterly destroyed themselves before
Jesus could make an appearance then all would have been lost. Also to keep in check
the work of Satan. I also believe the story about Noah and the ark and
also the tower of Babel were necessary to prevent that same destruction before Jesus
could come.
In fact large parts of the OT seem to be God's way of keeping a remnant of people
for himself, whether that was 8 people in a boat, or a whole nation of people so that
at the right time Jesus could come into the world and so that man kind did not destroy itself
or give itself utterly over to Satan, before Jesus could make an appearance.
Even all those wars where God's people were told to destroy their enemies, while distasteful, they
were instructed to do so, to avoid corruption and contamination of sin and to keep God's
perfect plan on track for the saviour of the world to come on the scene. If anything this
just emphasises even more how putrefying sin is to God, how serious it is, the deadly
consequences of sin. How we are not to take it lightly etc.
Another example of the deadly consequences of sin and the need for a saviour was the
Passover. People had a choice, they could accept the saving work of that Passover lamb or
reject it, but in accepting it they had to do something - kill a lamb and smear the blood
on the doors and stay inside. If they had killed the lamb daubed the blood on the
doors and then gone outside, they would not have been saved.
Then God's perfect plan was revealed in the birth, death and resurrection of God the Son.
People saw God face to face, Jesus was fully God and fully man. He paid the price for that
sin which was separating us from God. Hallulajah
To that degree the sin of the world has been forgiven, Jesus paid the price for all mankind both
past and present and future.
But it just like that Passover lamb we need to do something. We need to recognise the sin in
our life, accept what Jesus has done for us, humbly accept that we cannot earn salvation,
come to that place of acceptance and in doing so we become spiritually alive, born again,
born afresh spiritually. Even that is not our own doing, we are drawn and guided to that point
by God the Holy Spirit.
Once we have reached that point there is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ
Jesus, death has lost its sting. We are no longer separated from God. One day we will see
Him face to face, but not yet as we still live in a fleshy corrupt body. It is our spirit which is
born again, not out bodies and we still live on fallen planet earth.
In the meantime we still do things wrong, we are still very much in a learning curve. That
process remains on going for the rest of our lives. I think we need to keep short accounts
with God. When we realise we have done something wrong we need to say sorry and learn from
it and move on knowing that our Heavenly Father rejoices with us and is pleased with us.
So just like an earthly child has a relationship with an earthly father, whereby their relationship
develops and grows, sometimes there will be misunderstandings along the way, sometimes there
will be a need for the child to say sorry. That relationship will still continue and develop and
grow. The father will not throw the child out just because they draw on the walls etc.
That is how it is for us and God if we have truely and sincerely accepted Christ as our saviour.
That relationship grows all our lives. I was once in a place where I thought God would zap me
whenever I did anything wrong, but now I consider myself to be a friend of God, I know God
loves me with an ever lasting love. Sometimes I need to be taught lessons, sometimes I
need to be disciplined, lots of times I need to say sorry, I definately need to grow in faith,
trust, etc. But God knows all that yet He still loves me and He wants to continue with me
in that relationship which started when I accepted Christ as my saviour.
For someone who is truely born again and who is now spiritually alive, they know when they
do something wrong, they know they shouldn't, their conscious becomes more keener than
ever before. Such a person will want to do the right thing and mourn when they don't.
Even Paul said that which he should not do he did not, and that which he should do he didn't etc.
That is where the doing thingy for us comes into it. Not because we will lose our salvation, but
because we want to do the right thingy and because we want to remain close with God.
Even when there may be times we are a bit distance, we are drawn back to God. He is our
Heavenly Father, we seek Him we look for Him, we want to be close to Him even if sometimes
circumstances may mean we are sometimes distant. He is always drawing us back to himself, waiting
for the penny to drop.
Praise God he is patient with us and long bearing.
The other side of the doing thingy, is if a person claims to be born again, a new creation.
But there is no change, they just continue to think the same as before, they have no
consciounce, they do not seek a relationship with God etc, there is no fruit at all not even
a mustard seed to show for it, then I would question if they are really born again as
"actions speak louder than words".
But even then, that is between them and God it is none of my business as only God knows
the true heart of a person.
I suspect there will be a lot of surprises in the next life, people who we thought were saved,
may be turned away by God who will say he never knew them. While others who we thought
were not saved may be welcomed with open arms.
Above everything it is a heart matter and it makes no difference whether we argue about
grace/works or a combination of both. Only God knows the true heart of a person and
whether they are spiritually alive or not.
Sorry - gone on a bit haven't I.
Plus I have not quoted any scripture as I dont think I can post the whole bible.
