Free will is an unbiblical concept

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selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#61
Yes it is, as in heaven so one earth. FREE WILL. The exercising of that free will was tested by Lucifer, satan -and was used to go against what God commanded. "Of every tree you shall eat, but of the tree in the middle of the garden you shall not eat nor touch it lest you die!"
So are you saying that God was not in control of that situation and that created beings somehow got one over on him?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#62
Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Nothing can separate us from God. That includes ourselves.

I will never ceased to be amazed at how many Christians would rather trust in their own abilities to follow and obey rather then trust in the mercy and kindness of God.
I think you are misunderstanding those verses, one thing is if they mean what you say then all these verses would be in contradiction:

I think most people who deny free will want an excuse to go away from Yah...

Free will is Scriptural and real:

Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”

chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014

Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”

Psalm 1:1-6, 1, "Blessed is the man who shall not walk in the counsel of the wrong, And shall not stand in the path of sinners, And shall not sit in the seat of scoffers, But his delight is in the Torah (Instruction) of יהוה, And he meditates in His Torah (Instruction) day and night. For he shall be as a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That yields its fruit in its season, And whose leaf does not wither, And whatever he does prospers. The wrong are not so, But are like the chaff which the wind blows away. Therefore the wrong shall not rise in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For יהוה knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wrong comes to naught."

Isayah 44:22, "“I shall wipe out your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like a mist. Return to Me, for I shall redeem you.”

Ezekiel 18:20-32, “The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. All the transgressions which he has done shall not be remembered against him – in his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and does unrighteousness, according to all the abominations that the wrong one has done, shall he live? All his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. For his trespass which he has committed, and for his sin which he has committed, for them he shall die. And you said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Yisra’yl, is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness, and does unrighteousness, and he dies in it, it is because of his unrighteousness which he has done that he dies. And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself alive. Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. And the house of Yisra’yl have said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Yisra’yl? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I judge you, O house of Yisra’yl, every one according to his ways,” declares the Master יהוה. “Repent, and turn back from all your transgressions, and let not crookedness be a stumbling-block to you. Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’yl? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” declares the Master יהוה. “So turn back and live!”

Proverbs 1:24-33, “Because I called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one inclined, And you spurned all my counsel, And would not yield to my reproof, Let me also laugh at your calamity, Mock when your dread comes, When your dread comes like a storm, And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. Let them then call on me, but I answer not; Let them seek me, but not find me. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of יהוה, They did not accept my counsel, They despised all my reproof, Therefore let them eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled with their own counsels. For the turning away of the simple kills them, And the complacency of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me dwells safely, And is at ease from the dread of evil.”
Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
According to Messiah this can cause one to be "burned"

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned..."

but Isolating that verse in Romans is very cute and fuzzy, surely preaching that verse brings a large attendance to soothsaying churches.

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Yes none other can snap their fingers and cause another to be removed from Yah's hand... Yet people can choose to walk away...

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

and while another cant TAKE someone out of Yah's hand it clear warning is given to those who would make others stumble

Mark 9:42 “And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

Luke 17:1-4,1 And He said to the taught ones, “It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come!"2 “It would be better for him if a millstone is put around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble."3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."4 “And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”"

bottom line I gave a number of Scriptures on free will in my first post...
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#63
John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”

Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”

Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in יהוה with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear יהוה and turn away from evil.”

------------------------

Jeremiah 23:22-24,22 “But if they had stood in My counsel, then they would have let My people hear My Words, and they would have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their deeds."23 “Am I an Elohim close by,” declares יהוה, “and not an Elohim afar off?"24 “If anyone is hidden in secret places, would I not see him?” declares יהוה. “Do I not fill the heavens and earth?” declares יהוה."

Zechariah 7:13-14,13 “And it came to be: as He called and they did not hear, so let them call, but I shall not hear,” said יהוה of hosts."14 “And I scattered them with a storm wind among all the nations which they had not known. And the land was laid waste behind them, no one passing through or returning, for they made the pleasant land a waste.”"

John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#64
Actually, the doctrine of Thelema is more accurately represented in the concept of free will. Both free will and Thelema are doctrines of autonomy (which means self-governance). In free will the autonomy concerns most types of decisions we make, and in Thelema the autonomy is in regards to morality. Both essentially teach the same things, that the self is the one in the drivers seat. These are the doctrines of lawlessness.

In contrast, God is Sovereign and in control at all times. Everything in the Creation serves him and there is nothing outside of his sphere of control because he is omnipotent and omniscient.

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

All things means all things. Every single thing.
This post shows your humand reasoning. bringing theosophy into the discussion as a factor... "thelema"

so The Law of Thelema is;

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

this would be using free will to do ones own personal will aside from what the Most High wants.

Proverbs 20:24, “The steps of a man are from יהוה; What does a man know about his own way?”

according to the Most High we are to look to His Instruction and His path:

Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”

James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, let us go to such and such a city, spend a year there, and trade, and make a profit, when you do not know of tomorrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor that appears for a little, and then disappears, instead of your saying, “If the Master desires, we shall live and do this or that.”

Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in יהוה with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear יהוה and turn away from evil.”

yet you conflate to doctrines as the same that could not be more in oppisition to each other...
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#65
I think you are misunderstanding those verses, one thing is if they mean what you say then all these verses would be in contradiction:





According to Messiah this can cause one to be "burned"

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned..."

but Isolating that verse in Romans is very cute and fuzzy, surely preaching that verse brings a large attendance to soothsaying churches.



Yes none other can snap their fingers and cause another to be removed from Yah's hand... Yet people can choose to walk away...

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

and while another cant TAKE someone out of Yah's hand it clear warning is given to those who would make others stumble

Mark 9:42 “And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

Luke 17:1-4,1 And He said to the taught ones, “It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come!"2 “It would be better for him if a millstone is put around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble."3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."4 “And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”"

bottom line I gave a number of Scriptures on free will in my first post...
it sounds like you are trusting in your own works instead of the finished work of Christ

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned..."

i see people every day who do not abide in Christ and are withering and on the way to the lake of fire. The Church abides in Christ through the Spirit. The Church has Christ, we are not without Christ. We abide in him and he in us through faith.

Your doctrine has to harmonize with the entire Scriptures. You cant ignore the verses i posted about separation being impossible. If one verse taken in context refutes your position, then your position is false.

If believing on the Son gives you everlasting life, then that life is truly everlasting. You can't somehow spiritually die again. The atonement is complete and eternal because it is perfect. Relying on your own ability to obey instead of Christ's finished work is to rely on works to keep you in right standing with God, instead of works being a reflection of the reality that you are already in right standing with God through Christ.
 
Aug 8, 2018
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#66
So are you saying that God was not in control of that situation and that created beings somehow got one over on him?
No! No one gets one over on God. He gets one over on all who think they know better than Him. He can not be dethroned! Self defeating in deed the entangled web of he who first practices to deceive.
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#67
This post shows your humand reasoning. bringing theosophy into the discussion as a factor... "thelema"

so The Law of Thelema is;

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

this would be using free will to do ones own personal will aside from what the Most High wants.

Proverbs 20:24, “The steps of a man are from יהוה; What does a man know about his own way?”

according to the Most High we are to look to His Instruction and His path:

Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”

James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, let us go to such and such a city, spend a year there, and trade, and make a profit, when you do not know of tomorrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor that appears for a little, and then disappears, instead of your saying, “If the Master desires, we shall live and do this or that.”

Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in יהוה with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear יהוה and turn away from evil.”

yet you conflate to doctrines as the same that could not be more in oppisition to each other...
i think you are misunderstanding my post, i was refuting an earlier claim
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#68
it sounds like you are trusting in your own works instead of the finished work of Christ

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned..."

i see people every day who do not abide in Christ and are withering and on the way to the lake of fire. The Church abides in Christ through the Spirit. The Church has Christ, we are not without Christ. We abide in him and he in us through faith.

Your doctrine has to harmonize with the entire Scriptures. You cant ignore the verses i posted about separation being impossible. If one verse taken in context refutes your position, then your position is false.

If believing on the Son gives you everlasting life, then that life is truly everlasting. You can't somehow spiritually die again. The atonement is complete and eternal because it is perfect. Relying on your own ability to obey instead of Christ's finished work is to rely on works to keep you in right standing with God, instead of works being a reflection of the reality that you are already in right standing with God through Christ.
A common accusation. Yet seeking to do His will has nothing to do with "trusting in ones own works"

Yet in the world of the "mystery of iniquity" and "grace perversion" it has become the battle cry of any who would say Yahshua's way is right and His Instructions are to be followed. The accusations come of "justified by works", seems a way to convince ones self that they can live any way they want and there is no need to do His will, and even that trying to do His will is "bad" because it is "justified by works"

I believe this doctrine comes from satan, what a better way to get people not to follow the Shepherd than convince the sheep doing His will is "self justification"... Well then what is left? DO nothing? or "do ones own will? I will seek His narrow path.
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#70
A common accusation. Yet seeking to do His will has nothing to do with "trusting in ones own works"

Yet in the world of the "mystery of iniquity" and "grace perversion" it has become the battle cry of any who would say Yahshua's way is right and His Instructions are to be followed. The accusations come of "justified by works", seems a way to convince ones self that they can live any way they want and there is no need to do His will, and even that trying to do His will is "bad" because it is "justified by works"

I believe this doctrine comes from satan, what a better way to get people not to follow the Shepherd than convince the sheep doing His will is "self justification"... Well then what is left? DO nothing? or "do ones own will? I will seek His narrow path.
The narrow path is to believe on Jesus Christ. In no way am i advocating not doing works, we DO walk in good works because God has ordained us to do so. But those good works are a reflection of the reality of salvation that is already present in our lives, not a way to earn it. Of course Jesus' way is right and his instructions should be followed, and not only that, they WILL be followed by all who walk according to the Spirit (which is everyone who has been redeemed.)

The point is that obedience to God comes from God through the Spirit of God according to the will of God.

And it's all because of Jesus Christ, and for Him and by Him and in Him.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#71
The narrow path is to believe on Jesus Christ. In no way am i advocating not doing works, we DO walk in good works because God has ordained us to do so. But those good works are a reflection of the reality of salvation that is already present in our lives, not a way to earn it. Of course Jesus' way is right and his instructions should be followed, and not only that, they WILL be followed by all who walk according to the Spirit (which is everyone who has been redeemed.)

The point is that obedience to God comes from God through the Spirit of God according to the will of God.
I agree none are saved by their own works, and that ones that beleive WILL DO what He says, but I wonder what the Messiah ahs to say in whole...

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Seems He does not hate people and cast people out for doing what He says, but rather doing what He says is a good thing...but leave it to common teaching that somehow "doing His will is the only way He will reject you" I feel like when one says "do His will" and the reply is "self justified" there is at least a hint of this. most likely without even realizing it.

Fact is " If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned"

and this is how we "abide in Him"

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us."

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

HIs will, His way. Salvation aside, His way and His will.

Self I have to log off but Yah willing I will be back on later or tomorrow, this is an interesting topic!
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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436
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#72
It is such a liberating thing to finally realize that we can do noth
I agree none are saved by their own works, and that ones that beleive WILL DO what He says, but I wonder what the Messiah ahs to say in whole...

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Seems He does not hate people and cast people out for doing what He says, but rather doing what He says is a good thing...but leave it to common teaching that somehow "doing His will is the only way He will reject you" I feel like when one says "do His will" and the reply is "self justified" there is at least a hint of this. most likely without even realizing it.

Fact is " If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned"

and this is how we "abide in Him"

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us."

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

HIs will, His way. Salvation aside, His way and His will.

Self I have to log off but Yah willing I will be back on later or tomorrow, this is an interesting topic!
The redeemed are kept by the power of God through faith in Christ, not by ability to obey or perform works. Obedience to Jesus is a product of faith in Him because we receive the Spirit through faith and it's the Spirit who leads us to obey. The obedience doesn't come from us ourselves, the works don't come from us ourselves. They are the works of God, done by the Spirit of God, through us, the body of Christ, which is the temple of God.

We are earthen vessels, sinners saved by grace according to the will of God. The treasure in us is from God.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Look at what happens to those who come to Jesus and point to all the wonderful stuff they did for Him. They failed to understand that "of your own selves you can do nothing" and that in fact it is Christ in us who casts out demons and prophesies and does good works.

God forbid if i should ever come to the feet of Jesus with anything but empty hands and a single minded faith in his finished work.
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#73
I agree none are saved by their own works, and that ones that beleive WILL DO what He says, but I wonder what the Messiah ahs to say in whole...

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Seems He does not hate people and cast people out for doing what He says, but rather doing what He says is a good thing...but leave it to common teaching that somehow "doing His will is the only way He will reject you" I feel like when one says "do His will" and the reply is "self justified" there is at least a hint of this. most likely without even realizing it.

Fact is " If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned"

and this is how we "abide in Him"

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us."

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

HIs will, His way. Salvation aside, His way and His will.

Self I have to log off but Yah willing I will be back on later or tomorrow, this is an interesting topic!
All the Scriptures you posted here where Jesus is saying what you shall do and what you shall not do, describe what the redeemed WILL do. This is not a list of legalistic requirements for you to stay in the good graces of Jesus. It is a list of things that you WILL do because you are his.

The parts where he is referring to those who reject his words and do not abide in him, are referring to those who hear the gospel and reject it. They are not referring to members of the Church who aren't doing enough good works and therefore lose there salvation. Nothing can separate us from Jesus.

Have you been justified by faith in Jesus Christ?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If you have been justified, then you were predestined to become one of the elect before the world began. You can't lose that status because you didn't obey enough. You were predestined, called, justified by faith, and GLORIFIED. God has a glorified body prepared for you already.

These verses are supposed to give us rest and assurance that we are going to be okay in the end because of what Jesus did for us, not because of what we do for Jesus.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,345
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#74
Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Joshua said this....he must be ignorant of man's ability to choose to serve or not...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
29,630
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#75
so did he know that they would eat the forbidden fruit and all the consequences it would bring?
then why did he put it there?
this is an outstanding & absolutely profound question :)

the answer is definitely not '
i can't understand it therefore He didn't'
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#76
Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Joshua said this....he must be ignorant of man's ability to choose to serve or not...
Just get one level deeper.

Why do we choose the way we do?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#77
Self I have to log off but Yah willing I will be back on later or tomorrow
All the Scriptures you posted here where Jesus is saying what you shall do and what you shall not do, describe what the redeemed WILL do. This is not a list of legalistic requirements for you to stay in the good graces of Jesus. It is a list of things that you WILL do because you are his.

The parts where he is referring to those who reject his words and do not abide in him, are referring to those who hear the gospel and reject it. They are not referring to members of the Church who aren't doing enough good works and therefore lose there salvation. Nothing can separate us from Jesus.

Have you been justified by faith in Jesus Christ?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If you have been justified, then you were predestined to become one of the elect before the world began. You can't lose that status because you didn't obey enough. You were predestined, called, justified by faith, and GLORIFIED. God has a glorified body prepared for you already.

These verses are supposed to give us rest and assurance that we are going to be okay in the end because of what Jesus did for us, not because of what we do for Jesus.
THat is not even the topic nor did I say anything like that.

Those that claim to be His followers will either guard His word (sheep) or will not guard His word (goats).

We have free will to choose, again it is the battle cry of main stream Christianity to cry "justified by works" to any who would dare quote passages that talk of doing His will. IMO a mature follower of His would promote doing His will, while someone who is caught in main stream doctrine will cry wolf over these passages..

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#78
Self I have to log off but Yah willing I will be back on later or tomorrow
It is such a liberating thing to finally realize that we can do noth

The redeemed are kept by the power of God through faith in Christ, not by ability to obey or perform works. Obedience to Jesus is a product of faith in Him because we receive the Spirit through faith and it's the Spirit who leads us to obey. The obedience doesn't come from us ourselves, the works don't come from us ourselves. They are the works of God, done by the Spirit of God, through us, the body of Christ, which is the temple of God.

We are earthen vessels, sinners saved by grace according to the will of God. The treasure in us is from God.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Look at what happens to those who come to Jesus and point to all the wonderful stuff they did for Him. They failed to understand that "of your own selves you can do nothing" and that in fact it is Christ in us who casts out demons and prophesies and does good works.

God forbid if i should ever come to the feet of Jesus with anything but empty hands and a single minded faith in his finished work.
Free will, you made a thread about free will, then when obedience is promoted you say "we can do nothing!"

Sounds like an excuse not to do His will. TheMOst High created all of of and gave us free wll and the ability to do things in our lives, do we use our lives seeking Him and His will or going another way?

Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;



11:1, "And belief is the substance of what is expected, the proof of what is not seen.



11:4, "By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater slaughter offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.



11:5, "By belief, Ḥanoḵ was translated so as not to see death, “and was not found because Yah had translated him.” (Gen 5:24) For before his translation he obtained witness, that he pleased Yah.



11:6, "But without belief it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.



11:7, "By belief, Noaḥ, having been warned of what was yet unseen, having feared, prepared an ark to save his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to belief.



11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.



11:11, "By belief also, Sarah herself was enabled to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the normal age, because she deemed Him trustworthy who had promised.



11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,



11:20, "By belief, Yitsḥaq blessed Ya‛aqoḇ and Ěsaw concerning that which was to come.



11:21, "By belief, Ya‛aqoḇ, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Yosĕph, and did reverence on the top of his staff.



11:22, "By belief, Yosĕph, when he was dying, made mention of the outgoing of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and gave orders concerning his bones.



11:23, "By belief, Mosheh, having been born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a comely child, and were not afraid of the sovereign’s command. (Exo 2:2)



11:24, "By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh,"11:25, "choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time,"11:26, "deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward.



11:27, "By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.



11:28, "By belief, he performed the Pĕsaḥ and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the first-born should touch them.



11:29, "By belief, they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, and when the Mitsrites tried it, they were drowned.



11:30, "By belief, the walls of Yeriḥo fell, having been surrounded for seven days.



11:31, "By belief, Raḥaḇ the whore did not perish with those who did not believe, having received the spies with peace.



11:33, "who through belief, overcame reigns, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight."11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection."11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment."11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,”



and we can’t obey by belief?



Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושעMessiah."


Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#79
Sounds like an excuse not to do His will. TheMOst High created all of of and gave us free wll and the ability to do things in our lives, do we use our lives seeking Him and His will or going another way?
You are missing the point of the work being finished in Christ already. No-one is advocating disobedience, the perfect obedience was already realized by Christ. Any obedience we have is a work of Christ, by Christ, through his Spirit which is in us.

And my original post was asking for bible verses that prove the existence of a "free will", of which you gave me none. The Scriptures you posted all pertain to choices that were preordained before the foundation of the world because the Word of God is eternal and unchanging.

I further posit that since God is omnipotent and omniscient that from his vantage point there is no free will. From our vantage point, free will is only a illusion.

Nothing is outside of God's sphere of control, ESPECIALLY any and all choices we humans can make.

You say "this sounds like an excuse to go away from God", but the redeemed have been granted entrance into the Holy of Holies by the perfect and finished work of Jesus Christ.

These things should increase your faith and reliance on Jesus Christ, not cause you to want to go away from him.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#80
You are missing the point of the work being finished in Christ already. No-one is advocating disobedience, the perfect obedience was already realized by Christ. Any obedience we have is a work of Christ, by Christ, through his Spirit which is in us.

And my original post was asking for bible verses that prove the existence of a "free will", of which you gave me none. The Scriptures you posted all pertain to choices that were preordained before the foundation of the world because the Word of God is eternal and unchanging.

I further posit that since God is omnipotent and omniscient that from his vantage point there is no free will. From our vantage point, free will is only a illusion.

Nothing is outside of God's sphere of control, ESPECIALLY any and all choices we humans can make.

You say "this sounds like an excuse to go away from God", but the redeemed have been granted entrance into the Holy of Holies by the perfect and finished work of Jesus Christ.

These things should increase your faith and reliance on Jesus Christ, not cause you to want to go away from him.
Yet in a thread about free will, you have responded to my saying that "we should use our free will to do what He says" with "justified by works"...

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

The Messiah said this I am just quoting it:

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."