Free will is an unbiblical concept

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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,106
960
113
#81
If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.
I stil dont have ascriptural support commanding you to post this one. Do you have? Or it is your own will?

Thanks
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
#82
I stil dont have ascriptural support commanding you to post this one. Do you have? Or it is your own will?

Thanks
God's works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful, preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions. Providence, therefore, includes preservation and government. By preservation is meant that all things out of God owe the continuance of their existence, with all their properties and powers, to the will of God. This is clearly the doctrine of the Scriptures.

There is no free will. All things are for Him and by Him and from Him. In Him all things consist and He is the beginning, the end, and the entirety of all things.
 
S

selfdissolving

Guest
#83
I stil dont have ascriptural support commanding you to post this one. Do you have? Or it is your own will?

Thanks
Psalm 119

89Forever, O LORD,
Your word is settled in heaven.

90Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations;
You established the earth, and it stands.

91They stand this day according to Your ordinances,
For all things are Your servants.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#84
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#85
Just get one level deeper.

Why do we choose the way we do?
I do not need to go one level deeper....if God did not allow us choice we would not reap what we sow, nor would the judgment of God be fair and or righteous......chew on that for a moment
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,555
17,025
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Tennessee
#86
Even with free will God is still in control as He allows our choices to take place despite the consequences. Most of what we do is free will, even the most ordinary of things. The thing is God is aware of the choice and consequences even before such action is even contemplated. If there is no free will it would not be possible to love God as that is a choice as well.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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#87
I do not need to go one level deeper....if God did not allow us choice we would not reap what we sow, nor would the judgment of God be fair and or righteous......chew on that for a moment
EXACTLY! How could the judge make righteous judgemement if He forced anyone to do anything...

Psalm 19:9, “The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether.”

Psalm 19:9, “The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether.”

Psalms 9:7-8, “But יהוה abides forever, He is preparing His throne for judgment. And He judges the world in righteousness, He judges the peoples in straightness.”

Ezekiyl 18:19-32, “And you said, ‘Why should the son not bear the crookedness of the father?’ But the son has done right-ruling and righteousness, he has guarded all My laws and he does them, he shall certainly live. The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. All the transgressions which he has done shall not be remembered against him – in his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and does unrighteousness, according to all the abominations that the wrong one has done, shall he live? All his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. For his trespass which he has committed, and for his sin which he has committed, for them he shall die. And you said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Yisra’ĕl, is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness, and does unrighteousness, and he dies in it, it is because of his unrighteousness which he has done that he dies. And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself alive. Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. And the house of Yisra’ĕl have said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Yisra’ĕl? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I judge you, O house of Yisra’ĕl, every one according to his ways,” declares the Master יהוה. “Repent, and turn back from all your transgressions, and let not crookedness be a stumbling-block to you. Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’ĕl? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” declares the Master יהוה. “So turn back and live!”
 
Aug 14, 2018
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#88
If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.
Hmm, I'd say all those verses that talk about choosing good over evil and choosing this day whom you will serve. Sounds self explanatory to me. We have a choice to make.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
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#89
EXACTLY! How could the judge make righteous judgemement if He forced anyone to do anything...

Psalm 19:9, “The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether.”

Psalm 19:9, “The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether.”

Psalms 9:7-8, “But יהוה abides forever, He is preparing His throne for judgment. And He judges the world in righteousness, He judges the peoples in straightness.”

Ezekiyl 18:19-32, “And you said, ‘Why should the son not bear the crookedness of the father?’ But the son has done right-ruling and righteousness, he has guarded all My laws and he does them, he shall certainly live. The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. All the transgressions which he has done shall not be remembered against him – in his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and does unrighteousness, according to all the abominations that the wrong one has done, shall he live? All his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. For his trespass which he has committed, and for his sin which he has committed, for them he shall die. And you said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Yisra’ĕl, is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness, and does unrighteousness, and he dies in it, it is because of his unrighteousness which he has done that he dies. And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself alive. Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. And the house of Yisra’ĕl have said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Yisra’ĕl? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I judge you, O house of Yisra’ĕl, every one according to his ways,” declares the Master יהוה. “Repent, and turn back from all your transgressions, and let not crookedness be a stumbling-block to you. Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’ĕl? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” declares the Master יהוה. “So turn back and live!”
It seems rather clear at the end of the day.......a forced choice or religion is no choice or religion at all.....How can a man be judged righteously if he really had no choice in the matter "I.E> to believe, serve, love etc." The entire bible reeks of choice like the following examples...

Adam and Eve <---chose to eat or not
Cain <--choose to repent or not
Noah<---choose to build or not
Abram <--choose to leave or not
Moses <--choose to lead the children of Israel out or not
Joshua <--choose to lead or not
and on and on and on and on and on.......

EVEN JESUS had to disrobe himself of the glory he had with the Father, take the form of sinful flesh, be tempted in ALL points as we are AND CHOOSE

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
#90
It seems rather clear at the end of the day.......a forced choice or religion is no choice or religion at all.....How can a man be judged righteously if he really had no choice in the matter "I.E> to believe, serve, love etc." The entire bible reeks of choice like the following examples...

Adam and Eve <---chose to eat or not
Cain <--choose to repent or not
Noah<---choose to build or not
Abram <--choose to leave or not
Moses <--choose to lead the children of Israel out or not
Joshua <--choose to lead or not
and on and on and on and on and on.......

EVEN JESUS had to disrobe himself of the glory he had with the Father, take the form of sinful flesh, be tempted in ALL points as we are AND CHOOSE

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
praiseYah!

I have to say this, we may disagree on some doctrinal issues, obviously on this we agree, but to me this, this choice is the root of the thought in my head that makes me promote do His will, I feel He put it on my heart, but in my thoughts, and not to reject what He has guided me to this is my mental basis. Don't choose the things that go away from Him, choose His path no matter what.. Not always easy but if I believe in Yah and I do, it;s not really a question as to what I want to choose...

Hebrews 11 is powerful and This is the most heart wrenching and profound thing to me:

Mat 26:39, “And going forward a little, He fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I desire, but as You desire.”

and He chose to do the will of His Father...

Hebrews 12:3-, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives."

Just some thoughts.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#91
I do not need to go one level deeper....if God did not allow us choice we would not reap what we sow, nor would the judgment of God be fair and or righteous......chew on that for a moment
You do not want to get deeper but want me to "chew" your ideas :) Interesting. Either we will go deeper or we will be just on the surface of bible verses, decide :)

Everything is predestined but we are not forced. Do you feel forced to write on this forum? I think you do not. We are not robots.
What we do is certain but not necessary.

Chew on that for a moment :)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,106
960
113
#92
God's works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful, preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions. Providence, therefore, includes preservation and government. By preservation is meant that all things out of God owe the continuance of their existence, with all their properties and powers, to the will of God. This is clearly the doctrine of the Scriptures.

There is no free will. All things are for Him and by Him and from Him. In Him all things consist and He is the beginning, the end, and the entirety of all things.
Yet still, is there such command to post there’s no free will?
Adam made a choice.

God bless.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,106
960
113
#93
Psalm 119

89Forever, O LORD,
Your word is settled in heaven.

90Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations;
You established the earth, and it stands.

91They stand this day according to Your ordinances,
For all things are Your servants.
Are you really sure this is God’s will in relation to the scriptural support I am asking? Or this is out of nowhere and just came to your mind and put it here. Anyway, that will be you own choice. Also I am being reminded of the simple principle in studying His words by using ABC-Always By the Context. Those texts are perhaps irrelevant to the issue at hand. In your other post please do also put in the proper context your Colossians quote .

God bless
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#94
I think the o.p sorta answers itself.

If God is all powerful is the question and answer in one.....free will. Free choice
Choose today whom you will serve?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,106
960
113
#95
God's works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful, preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions. Providence, therefore, includes preservation and government. By preservation is meant that all things out of God owe the continuance of their existence, with all their properties and powers, to the will of God. This is clearly the doctrine of the Scriptures.

There is no free will. All things are for Him and by Him and from Him. In Him all things consist and He is the beginning, the end, and the entirety of all things.
Yet one thing more, you are talking about God as preserver (that's alright) but what about God as Saviour?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#96
If God is all powerful, all knowing and totally Sovereign, there is no such thing as free will.
The idea of free will implies that there is a force outside of God's control.
That would mean that God is not omnipotent or Sovereign.
Where in the bible does it teach that human beings have free will? Hmm?

Claiming that we have "free will" is tantamount to self-deification because it dethrones God as King and replaces it with self.
As usual I'm late to the party :)

You have to go back to the very beginning. The thing about God's sovereign will is that He generally chooses not to enforce it Himself. God created creation, and He was in charge of it. God then created man, and yielded His sovereignty to give man authority over creation. You, Adam, are the authority. So Adam then gives that away to satan. God could have, in His sovereign power, taken it all back. But then that would put Him in charge again, and that wasn't what He wanted. His intent/will was for man to have authority.

So to restore what God intended/willed meant a man had to take authority back from satan. But what man could do such a thing? Well, only God, coming to us as a man. So the Christ comes and indeed takes back authority. But He has not returned to enforce it. Power in the heavenlies is His, but satan still runs the terra firma. That's where our 'free will' comes in. It's God's sovereign will that we participate with Him in the enforcement of His authority over creation.

I liken it as to a Sheriff. The sheriff holds the authority, but he doesn't patrol the streets chasing down perps. He has Deputies who enforce his authority for him. But the Deputies actually have no authority of their own. Christ is our sheriff, we are his deputies, charged to enforce His Will in a land run by satan until He returns.

God yields his will to give us the authority to choose participate in bringing His Will to bear in this world.
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
94
28
#97
We do have free will. If we didn't have free will, we be nothing more than robots. In order to love, one has to be able to not only understand what love is, but choose to love.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#98
So if there is no free will then it is gods will for rape, murder, incest, abuse, people going to hell and more. Because no one chose what they did, they were directed to do so.
This makes God to be a liar and therefore dethroning him.

Knowledge of the future does not mean controlling the future. If a weatherman predicts rain and it rains, did he make it rain?
I've always been a free will believer but now I'm questioning all of that. But arguments like this are so ridiculous and illogical its embarrassing.
I like your comparison with a weather man. (Of course with the man it's an educated guess, with God full knowledge), however you get the point across.

Remember about David inquiring of the LORD... He asked would Saul attack the city of his refuge, and would the men of that city deliver them up?

1Samuel 23:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. 11Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down. 12Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up. 13Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go.

God has full knowledge, He knows every possible outcome. David inquired what would happen if....and then acted on information recieved.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,275
113
#99
We do have free will. If we didn't have free will, we be nothing more than robots. In order to love, one has to be able to not only understand what love is, but choose to love.
Agreed..there are many verses in the Bible that indicate God allows man's free will..

We have free will to accept or reject Jesus...

Adam and Eve were given free will

The desciples were given free will when Jesus called to them to be desciples. .

..and on and on..
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,275
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@selfdissolving..here are just a FEW scriptures that suggest free will

1 Corinthians 10:13

Galtians 5:13

John 7:17

Joshua 24:13

Mark 8:43

Genesis 3:16-17

Isaiah 55:6-7